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paulpressey25 wrote:Ramon and CV (and RJ) are all blooming right now with Redd's dead roots moved out of the way.

Perhaps but it should be noted that the Bucks were 12-10 when Bogut, Redd and RJ played together. That's a 45-win pace. So it's not like Redd was dragging this team down no matter how badly you keep shouting it from the rooftops.

Again, if the Bucks continue to play well without Redd (and Bogut and Ridnour), that's at the very least in part a reflection of the team put together by Hammond and the job being done by the head coach Hammond hired.

Perhaps but it should be noted that the Bucks were 12-10 when Bogut, Redd and RJ played together. That's a 45-win pace. So it's not like Redd was dragging this team down no matter how badly you keep shouting it from the rooftops.

Again, if the Bucks continue to play well without Redd (and Bogut and Ridnour), that's at the very least in part a reflection of the team put together by Hammond and the job being done by the head coach Hammond hired.

I'd like to see the Bucks record without JUST Redd this season. My guess is it is over .500. Anyone can see we don't really miss him, and the reason is because all he brings is scoring. It's just unfortunate that he's not an untradeable HUGE contract until a year from this offseason.

But Redd's contract is in the top ten worst in the NBA.

oshmeehan wrote:Right. We're going to get LeBron, Dwight, or CP3 or anyone of that quality with the 15th pick. Please tell me who it is you think the Bucks would be able to get around the 15th pick that would be that immediate star player. Keep dreaming there guy

I don't watch college ball so I don't know who's out there except from what I've read here and at draftexpress. That's not the point though - the point is that either you have enough talent to contend for the championship, or you need to be focusing exclusively on collecting and developing more talent.

The 15th pick almost certainly won't bring us a superstar, but there's the 1 in 100 chance that it will, and a 1 in 10 chance that it will give us a borderline (or legit) all-star. When you're sitting towards the bottom of the barrel in championship caliber talent, this has to be your focus.

And our team still would be relatively young with Bogut, CV, Sessions, JA, Luc and Ersan

You need to be not ok with that. There are 10 teams with better young cores than that.
while our older guys (Redd, RJ, Ridnour, Allen) would be coming off the books after next season or after the following year[/quote]If those guys don't come off the books right now, then we don't have all those young guys you mentioned.

DrugBust wrote:adamcz, I fully agree that we need more young assets, but we can't be losing the ones we have, either. Letting CV and/or Sessions walk at the expense of a 1st rounder is a terrible move. If you have to use the pick this year to clear salary (ONLY if other options have been explored and can't be done) it needs to be done.

Agreed. I'm just surprised that Jefferson puts up a handful of decent games and all of the sudden we need to keep him, and it's case closed on our search for talent.

Trading RJ for an expiring deal needs to be objective 1, 2, and 3 this week. If an offer is made you accept it immediatly. If you need to, you offer up our 2nd rounder and JA to get the deal done. If that doesn't work, you move Ridnour for an expiring deal, and try to use JA and our 2nd rounder to clear Gadz for a smaller bad contract and a small expiring.

The emphisis has to be on collecting championship caliber talent, and that means keeping the talented young guys we've got and the 1st round draft pick.

PP wrote:This team is playing an entirely different style game right now over what we were doing two weeks ago. Based on what I saw of Bogut against Toronto and Atlanta, I think he can play in this style.

I just can't see the young talent we get in this upcoming draft with the 14th pick. I'd rather try to keep the gang together (sans Redd/Ridnour/Gadz), add a Landry and see what happens the last 26 games and next season.

Take a step back PP - you know well what it takes to contend for championships in the NBA, and the possible formulas are 1 superstar, or 3 legit all-stars. Not three "could possibly be rationalized as" all-stars.

RJ = Solid starter, could possibly be rationalized as an all-star in a year with 6 injuries to other all-stars
Bogut = Solid starter, could possibly be named the backup center one day
Sessions = all-star potential, we'll see
Villanueva = If Mo Williams and Michael Redd can make it, you never know. But still fringe caliber.

This is not a group with Garnett/Pierce/Allen or Bryant/Gasol/Bynum potential. We need more.

If you believe that Sessions and/or Villanueva is worth more than the 1st rounder in next years draft (probably a mid-first) then it doesn't make sense to not use it to clear space to keep them.

I'm not saying the Bucks miss Redd. At the present time they're doing well without him. I'm simply saying that painting him as if he was some kind of a drag on this team's potential for success is factually inaccurate. The fact is this team was having success with Redd.

I've been throwing some stuff at the trade checker but I just can't see other teams doing most of the deals. I think we could try to package our pick or Alexander with Gadz, but if all else fails, what about doing something weird like trading CV for Beasley? I can't see Miami doing it though and I'm not too sure I'd want them too but then maybe we could resign Sessions and tread water as a low playoff seed until we can make more moves.

europa wrote:I'm not saying the Bucks miss Redd. At the present time they're doing well without him. I'm simply saying that painting him as if he was some kind of a drag on this team's potential for success is factually inaccurate. The fact is this team was having success with Redd.

Well, I will say he's a drag for two reasons:

1. His contract is preventing us from being flexible with our younger players, quite clearly.
2. It appears that pretty much every player on this roster plays better without Redd on the floor. What is the reason for that? In my opinion, the ball movement is FAR worse when Redd is on the court, he likes to dribble and force offense.

But look at our offense right now. It's free-flowing as hell. So much more fun to watch our team when Redd is not on the court.

I think Ridnour could be of some value if a team was looking for a solid starting PG or a strong backup PG. If the Blazers strike out in their pursuit of an "elite PG" perhaps they'd be interested. I think Press' proposal with the Raptors makes a ton of sense for Toronto. I think he's a guy who Hammond needs to look into trading - especially with Sessions putting a stranglehold on the starting job at the moment.

Frankly I'm tired of assessing blame so that is not my point in this comment. After reading this thread, and all of the possible trade scenarios and the like, the only thing that keeps running through my mind is a single word - flexibility. This word came up and has come up multiple times throughout the past few weeks here and one that I have pondered much on. No matter what happens with the cap situation the pitfalls or ramifications we face are clearly obvious. Everyone from players to management for every franchise in the NBA understands our back are up against the proverbial wall in what our choices are. That is an absolute horrendous place to be and if the "win-now" philosophy has made any possitive strides in this franchise the predicament we are now facing was not worth it. Now I realize that injuries have made this situation significantly more acute but the facts are what they are. We are in a horrible situation that will cost us. Even if something is done, moves are made whatever, any moves made will simply not be as advantageous to us because of our plight. I certainly hope that this situation will be indelibly etched in the brains of the management of this organization and while I understand the financial pressure to "win now" and re-energize the fan base, the longer term vision must remain as important.

Sorry - I'll get off my soapbox now!

JoeHova wrote:I didn't expect Herb to pay the lux tax next season. If the team was good (rather than "OK"), it might be a different story, but that's moot.

Anyway, is Herb at least willing to nose right up against the lux tax again? I hope so, or else the team will have a lot of problems next year.

Yes. He's willing to go right up to the threshold, he's just not willing to break it. That is the budget he has set and is determined to stick to.

As I've said before, I do think that's perfectly reasonable, I just wish sometimes, as a Bucks fan, that he would be willing to be "unreasonable"

I also wish we would be less wasteful on relatively inconsequential players like Elson, Allen, Lue, Croshere, Voskuhl, etc. and just note those savings for Kohl so that we could go back and say, "Look, we didn't spend this amount on those players the last few years so that we could instead use that money to cover some lux tax costs on something more worthwhile when the time is right. And now the time is right."

paulpressey25 wrote:The question is where the organization views CV. As much as I disagree with it, I'm led to look at Europa's comment about them parting with CV as being the current thought.

I'm kind of getting that vibe too.

On the one hand, it shouldn't surprise me, because Hammond never intended for Villanueva to have a future here and had been interested in trading him since he took over as GM.

But I thought that if Villanueva's play had won over skeptics such as europa and myself, that had to mean that Hammond would be won over as well. Perhaps not.

Maybe they think Ilyasova can provide scoring from the PF position. I don't think he's near the player Villanueva is but I keep hearing how great this guy is supposed to be. Maybe Hammond and Skiles are buying into that too.

If they know they are not keeping CV (which is ridiculous if they are keeping RJ over him in the first place), then you move him for value before the deadline, ideally unloading salary so we can keep our pick. I can't fathom how moronic watching CV drop 22/10 for half a season and then just letting him walk away is. It's pretty much incomprehensibly stupid.

I don't think those guys trust CV. And Skiles doesn't like the defensive breakdowns he still has to deal with when CV is on the court.

But again, you solve that problem by trying to move Ridnour to Houston for Landry. I mean, who the heck does Hammond think he's going to get at PF this offseason with zero salary flexibility that will be better than Landry? Why not just get Landry right now and keep CV at the same time. Problem solved with little downside risk.

If the cost to keep CV (and maybe get Landry) would be Ridnour/Gadz and a #1, you do it. I just hope Hammond and Skiles aren't so hung up on Ridnour that they keep him instead of CV. I like Ridnour, but we can replace him in the next 12-24 months.

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:On the one hand, it shouldn't surprise me, because Hammond never intended for Villanueva to have a future here and had been interested in trading him since he took over as GM.

But I thought that if Villanueva's play had won over skeptics such as europa and myself, that had to mean that Hammond would be won over as well. Perhaps not.

The jury's out on whether Hammond knows talent when he sees it. The players he tried (and/or succeeded) to ship out are easily out-producing the players he tried (same) to bring in.

Group A: Redd, Jefferson, Landry, Conley, Alexander, Ridnour
Group B: Williams, Villanueva, Sessions, Lopez

Well how bout clearing Redd?

Philly plays better w/o Brand and needs shooter. That won't change next offseason.
Both are injured but Redd only has 2 yrs - Philly must be a little bit nervous about Brand's 4 yrs.

Portland was interested in Amare a PF. Did not want to give Aldridge.
Blazers must do deal w/ LaFrentz to get any value b/c of Miles situation as we all know.
blazers might be concerned about Brand but what a steal if he comes back which he should.
They could get him for next year w/o disturbing this year's roster at all.

IF Bucks want/need straight salary dump?

Redd to Philly
Brand to Port
LaFrentz to Mil

checker accepted.
Sure Redd has much more value but this is a Camby-like move that allows us to resign our existing players & avoids lux tax.

Resign both Ramon & CV & keep RJ & Luke. Also resign Bogans.

Still trade Gadz & 1st to Wolves for Collins if possible. Then we also can use MLE.

Bogut / Elson / Allen
CV / M2 / halfMLE
RJ / M2 / JA
Bell / Bogans / halfMLE
Ramon / Luke / 2nd

paulpressey25 wrote:I don't think those guys trust CV. And Skiles doesn't like the defensive breakdowns he still has to deal with when CV is on the court.

He got yanked last night in the first quarter because of it.

I do agree with the sentiment that letting Villanueva walk for nothing is not a smart decision. But I think a very strong argument can continue to be made that he might not be the right guy for the Bucks at PF long term.

I also would like to see if the Landry deal could be revived, perhaps including Ridnour's deal. I haven't looked but do the Rockets have any decent-sized expirings?

LUKE23 wrote:1. His contract is preventing us from being flexible with our younger players, quite clearly.
2. It appears that pretty much every player on this roster plays better without Redd on the floor. What is the reason for that? In my opinion, the ball movement is FAR worse when Redd is on the court, he likes to dribble and force offense.

But look at our offense right now. It's free-flowing as hell. So much more fun to watch our team when Redd is not on the court.

I agree 100%. I thought the Toronto game was one of the more entertaining I've seen the Bucks play in the last couple years. I couldn't wait to talk about it at work the next day (should have known nobody else in the office saw it). They're just a better team to watch without Redd.

i want to ask again, to ensure i understand.

any moves/trades that have cap implications must be made before the february trade deadline, rather than after the season or part of a draft night deal? is that correct?

I keep seeing rumors of trades, but more, I see teams backing out of potential trades. I see articles that say there will be a flury of trades. what are these teams waiting for? the clock to strike 11:59? these NBA trades rumors are looking more and more like the peavy trade rumors. last i checked, peavy's still with the padres.

could redd exist and thrive in the current offense ? or would it revert back to the old way ?

How about getting a little creative w/ the Knicks? This should shed about 6.5 million for next year. I think the Knicks do it


New York Trade Breakdown

Incoming Players
Malik Allen
6-10 PF from Villanova
3.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.6 apg in 11.1 minutes
Joe Alexander
6-8 SF from West Virginia
4.2 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.1 minutes
Damon Jones
6-3 PG / SG from Houston
1.2 ppg, 0.4 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.4 minutes
Dan Gadzuric
6-11 C from UCLA
3.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.8 apg in 13.0 minutes
Luke Ridnour
6-1 PG from Oregon
10.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 31.2 minutes

Outgoing Players
Malik Rose
6-7 PF from Drexel
1.5 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 8.0 minutes
Eddy Curry
6-11 C from Thornwood (HS)
1.0 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 0.0 apg in 1.3 minutes

Milwaukee Trade Breakdown

Incoming Players
Malik Rose
6-7 PF from Drexel
1.5 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 8.0 minutes
Eddy Curry
6-11 C from Thornwood (HS)
1.0 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 0.0 apg in 1.3 minutes

Outgoing Players
Malik Allen
6-10 PF from Villanova
3.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.6 apg in 11.1 minutes
Joe Alexander
6-8 SF from West Virginia
4.2 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.1 minutes
Damon Jones
6-3 PG / SG from Houston
1.2 ppg, 0.4 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.4 minutes
Dan Gadzuric
6-11 C from UCLA
3.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.8 apg in 13.0 minutes
Luke Ridnour
6-1 PG from Oregon
10.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 31.2 minut