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Multiple teams, including a young Orlando squad, are prepping their 3-4 year max offer sheets for 34-year old Paul George if he ends up declining his $48 million player option. I think that should tell you guys something about how we need to stop underestimating the market for veteran difference-makers. There'd be a big market for Middleton, and to a lesser extent Brook/Bobby.

Ron Swanson wrote:The thing about OKC's "asset war chest" that everyone always seems to ignore is....those draft picks all kinda suck. Outside of the 2027 pick swap with the Clippers, and maybe the 2028 Dallas 1st assuming Luka might not be there, it's nothing but Top-10 and lottery protected picks, 2nd-rounders, etc.

They absolutely cannot "trade for anyone they want" because asset quality matters. Teams want unprotected 1st's and pick swaps way out in the future, and OKC is in a unique situation where A) their own pick swaps are worthless, and B) they can easily afford to consolidate mediocre assets for a luxury player (like Brook or Bobby) where their financial investment wouldn't be major. Whether it's the 12th pick in this draft, or combining 2-3 of those lesser future picks, it makes a bunch of sense for them to flip those for an older veteran dude that can be the difference in a playoff series, ala what Boston did to acquire Jrue once we traded him to Portland.

Also the value of these picks is diminished because teams know OKC cannot keep all of these picks. Their roster is already fairly deep with the remaining roster spots filled up with young players with untapped potential. If anything, Presti needs to send these picks out in trades for established veterans to upgrade the existing roster or trade them for future protected picks.

Ron Swanson wrote:I'd obviously prefer to keep him, but if Middleton needs to go in order to bring in whatever this team's 2021 version of the Denver Aaron Gordon trade is, then I'm fine doing it. Problem of course continues to be so many people are now all aboard this "get younger at all costs" mentality that these, to put it politely, ham-fisted trade ideas are reflecting that. It can't be for picks and second year players. This "young players are more important than ever in winning championships" is just reactionary thinking based on the older stars (Lebron, Steph, KD) finally aging out.

Again, I think there is a broad brush paint job on this that isn't entirely accurate. We can vet out "win now" options for these guys, and assess if the value is there.

The model I keep going back to was the 1984 off-season, ancient I know. That 1984 team was still very good, but not good enough and was getting long in the tooth. (and Marques was having personal issues).

Don Nelson shocked the fanbase by moving Marques, Junior and Harvey Catchings for Cummings, Ricky Pierce and Craig Hodges. At the time, not much was known on Pierce and Hodges. The deal instantly re-opened the Bucks window for another four-years (they won 60 games in 1984-85). In the year after the deal, it was viewed as one of the great hauls of all-time. The Clippers actually sued the league to reverse it.

There may be options to recalibrate here that don't involve getting a bunch of draft picks. And to your point above, I think some team may overvalue Middleton. Let's explore it.

paulpressey25 wrote:So five years later, we now come to 2024. Again, I get it. People want to retain Middleton. I don't want to give him away, but if there is a good offer out there, I personally want to offload potential injury risk, and pivot to a younger team around Giannis.

What = "a good offer" for Middleton is to be debated I imagine.

Either way it is instructive looking back at the chronology.

2019 aside we theoretically could have traded Middleton right after our championship or before the deadline the following season when he was an All-Star in 2022.

Other than that we haven't had this good of an opportunity to deal him since he got hurt vs Boston.

Middleton played well enough in the playoffs vs Miami but his contract wasn't easily tradeable that offseason -- it is now though since we extended him, got past the window where we couldn't deal him, and he just killed it vs Indiana.

bdpecore wrote:

ShootingtheJ wrote:

Sigra wrote:
Porter is now solid defender. And Jokic is very solid. Only Murray is bad defender in that starting 5 IMO
Minnesota also has only KAT as bad defender. Othe 4 are very good at defense.
We will be able to survive Dame as our bad defender. Dame, Midds, Beasly was so wrong.

Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

Khris has never been an overly athletic player. Bucks fans have been complaining about him being a slow footed plodder for years.

He plays an old school game and relies on his high BBIQ and plethora of moves to keep defenders guessing on offense. Defensively, he uses positioning, his length and good anticipation to keep quick/more athletic players in front of him. Ultimately, his game is perfect for an aging player as it’s not reliant on his agility.

I agree with what you said on offense. He has a quick, shifty fake and can get his shot off.

Where I disagree with you, is on defense. KM doesn't do very much of the things on defense that you just said he did. What actually happened is that Bud developed a whole defense around hiding KM, including keeping Brook dropped right behind him on drives and Jrue right next to him for quick help and switches. Once we changed coaches, KM/Beas/Dame all had around equal responsibilities and their previous teams likely had to always try to hide all 3.. suddenly they were together on the perimeter and it was embarassing. Most likely is that we have to pick between Dame and KM and have defenders all around the one we pick to succeed. We were 18 - 9 without KM and 1-8 without Dame so Dame is more valuable. Give Dame defenders around him and we'll be giving Indy fits in no time.

-Jragon- wrote:

bdpecore wrote:

ShootingtheJ wrote:
Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

Khris has never been an overly athletic player. Bucks fans have been complaining about him being a slow footed plodder for years.

He plays an old school game and relies on his high BBIQ and plethora of moves to keep defenders guessing on offense. Defensively, he uses positioning, his length and good anticipation to keep quick/more athletic players in front of him. Ultimately, his game is perfect for an aging player as it’s not reliant on his agility.

I agree with what you said on offense. He has a quick, shifty fake and can get his shot off.

Where I disagree with you, is on defense. KM doesn't do very much of the things on defense that you just said he did. What actually happened is that Bud developed a whole defense around hiding KM, including keeping Brook dropped right behind him on drives and Jrue right next to him for quick help and switches. Once we changed coaches, KM/Beas/Dame all had around equal responsibilities and their previous teams likely had to always try to hide all 3.. suddenly they were together on the perimeter and it was embarassing. Most likely is that we have to pick between Dame and KM and have defenders all around the one we pick to succeed. We were 18 - 9 without KM and 1-8 without Dame so Dame is more valuable. Give Dame defenders around him and we'll be giving Indy fits in no time.

The main premise of Bud’s drop defense was to allow perimeter defenders to close out hard on shooters and play overly aggressive at the POA as they knew Brook was backing them up if their players got past them. It’s not often players blow past Khris when he’s defending them 1 on 1. The issue we had last season was both Dame and Beasley struggled to shift back when the Bucks were switching all screens. If their opponent kept the ball moving eventually, Dame or Malik would lose track of their assignment and it resulted in uncontested shots.

RE outside the box Middleton trades: what do we think about Jerami Grant these days?

Milwaukee's been linked to him a few times in the past.

I thought Grant was a bad defender but this says he's good, or is that bunk?

The 29-year-old has played at a borderline all-star level this year, scoring 21.1 points per game and hitting a career-high 41.1 percent from three. His defense has tailed off a bit, but he's still athletic, rangy and intelligent.

A player with with Grant's offensive production, defensive capabilities and willingness to play a role - he settled in well as a third option last season in Portland alongside Damian Lillard and Anfernee Simons - should be attractive to contenders looking to grab a three-and-D combo forward.

https://ripcityproject.com/posts/best-trade-destinations-portland-trail-blazers-jerami-grant

Playing with a scenario like the following --

Bucks trade: Middleton, Bobby, other stuff
Bucks receive: Jerami Grant, Matisse Thybulle

Magic trade: cap space, other stuff
Magic receive: Middleton

Blazers trade: Grant, Thybulle
Blazers receive: cap space, Bobby, other stuff from Bucks/Magic

Ron Swanson wrote:Multiple teams, including a young Orlando squad, are prepping their 3-4 year max offer sheets for 34-year old Paul George if he ends up declining his $48 million player option. I think that should tell you guys something about how we need to stop underestimating the market for veteran difference-makers. There'd be a big market for Middleton, and to a lesser extent Brook/Bobby.

I agree. Paul is a higher usage player but is older and has played less games than Middleton over the last 5 years. Tobias Harris is another guy to watch to give an idea of what Middleton's market might look like.

There might not be any players like them available or the Bucks may not have the assets to get them but they need to add a Taurean Prince type and Rui type to their team. I also think they need a speed guard like Aaron Holiday.

Been seeing a lot of chatter about how Orlando fans don't think Wendell Carter is a great fit with their core guys. Need to pounce on something like that IMO. They could use an offense-for-defense swap and Bobby fits perfectly as tradeable salary. Then, once OKC gets eaten alive in the paint by either Jokic or Towns/Gobert in the Conference Finals, do the Brook for #12 trade but combine all your assets and flip that stuff (#12, #23, #33) to get the best perimeter player you can in that $20-30 million range. For argument's sake, throw in the 2031 1st and that's probably the Dejounte Murray trade package right there:

Dame
Murray
Middleton
Giannis
WCJ

Yeah, you'll basically have zero tradeable pick assets for the next 7-years, but what else is new? All those dudes are locked up the next 2-3 years.

raferfenix wrote:RE outside the box Middleton trades: what do we think about Jerami Grant these days?

Milwaukee's been linked to him a few times in the past.

I thought Grant was a bad defender but this says he's good, or is that bunk?

The 29-year-old has played at a borderline all-star level this year, scoring 21.1 points per game and hitting a career-high 41.1 percent from three. His defense has tailed off a bit, but he's still athletic, rangy and intelligent.

A player with with Grant's offensive production, defensive capabilities and willingness to play a role - he settled in well as a third option last season in Portland alongside Damian Lillard and Anfernee Simons - should be attractive to contenders looking to grab a three-and-D combo forward.

https://ripcityproject.com/posts/best-trade-destinations-portland-trail-blazers-jerami-grant

Playing with a scenario like the following --

Bucks trade: Middleton, Bobby, other stuff
Bucks receive: Jerami Grant, Matisse Thybulle

Magic trade: cap space, other stuff
Magic receive: Middleton

Blazers trade: Grant, Thybulle
Blazers receive: cap space, Bobby, other stuff from Bucks/Magic

I don't think that would improve the Bucks. If they can add Grant while keeping Middleton then okay. Also, Thybulle shooting sucked as the season went on. They missed the boat on trading him for high value. Thybulle is Pat and Marjon level value to me

paulpressey25 wrote:

Baddy Chuck wrote:

paulpressey25 wrote:We waited too long to trade Jabari, and we waited too long to trade Michael Redd.

You've been saying we waited too long on Khris since like 2017 when the first Middleton alert was sent out. We got three all-star games, a championship, countless Bojan Bogdanovic trades and 1 missed playoffs since then. Sometimes you just didn't wait too long .

Let's get the facts straight. In the summer of 2019, a few of us preferred that the Bucks renounce Midds Bird rights, use said money to retain Brogdon, and sign Bojan Bogdanovic to the contract the Pacers got him for. All doable under the cap, with the understanding that maybe Brogdon was impossible, due to his issues with our front office. If that hypothetical had played out, and we had Brogdon and Bojan the past five years do we win a title? Don't know. Middleton however played like Kawhi in the 2021 playoffs, so probably not. That said, the concept wasn't entirely crackpot. You may not have liked it, but it might have worked out as well or better.

So five years later, we now come to 2024. Again, I get it. People want to retain Middleton. I don't want to give him away, but if there is a good offer out there, I personally want to offload potential injury risk, and pivot to a younger team around Giannis.

Middleton played out of his mind and helped win us an NBA title but this Door #2 mystery box could've been anything, even an NBA title. *insert Family Guy meme*

The "trade Middleton" guys will never just take the L.

I think a better idea than all of these trades is the Bucks going hard for 45 wins, then all three of Giannis, Dame, and Khris going down at the same time for various ailments that keep them on ice for a couple months.

I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

ReasonablySober wrote:I think a better idea than all of these trades is the Bucks going hard for 45 wins, then all three of Giannis, Dame, and Khris going down at the same time for various ailments that keep them on ice for a couple months.

Hadn't considered that, we should trade them all for guys who are invulnerable.

emunney wrote:

ReasonablySober wrote:I think a better idea than all of these trades is the Bucks going hard for 45 wins, then all three of Giannis, Dame, and Khris going down at the same time for various ailments that keep them on ice for a couple months.

Hadn't considered that, we should trade them all for guys who are invulnerable.

No need. Just play Thanasis, Washington, Galloway, and Rollins.

Turk Nowitzki wrote:I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

Last season was more than injuries. That was a failure of coaching, preparation and each individual that played. We got waxed and embarrassed. Honestly, I'm not even sure if health this season guarantees we get by the Pacers..

fansinceforever wrote:

Turk Nowitzki wrote:I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

Last season was more than injuries. That was a failure of coaching, preparation and each individual that played. We got waxed and embarrassed. Honestly, I'm not even sure if health this season guarantees we get by the Pacers..

Agree last season I'm not sure about but healthy Giannis changes everything about how we play and how we're defended.

This season I am like 100% sure we beat the Pacers in 5 or 6. That's not really even a question to me. People are already forgetting what kind of a monster healthy playoff Giannis is.

fansinceforever wrote:

Turk Nowitzki wrote:I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

Last season was more than injuries. That was a failure of coaching, preparation and each individual that played. We got waxed and embarrassed. Honestly, I'm not even sure if health this season guarantees we get by the Pacers..

yep....giannis going down certainly changed the narrative here. we werent on pace to do **** this year healthy or not and how wed played when all 3 of our guys were on the floor was getting worse not better as the season progressed. all these net rating numbers for the 3 of them being repeated over and over as if its a guarantee? when our 3 were healthy under doc we were sub .500 which is frankly almost unbelievable.

our team is heavily flawed in multiple ways. its not just about being healthy or fattening up the bench. this squad hasnt proved anything and looked atrocious as much as they looked good. there shouldnt be anything thats not on the table at this point and the roster in general should be a very short leash. we have a window to win(in theory).... and a window to blow it up.... i just know that if we arent careful this franchise could be devastated for a decade or longer and a laughing stock. id hate to see that again. id just hate it.

Ron Swanson wrote:Been seeing a lot of chatter about how Orlando fans don't think Wendell Carter is a great fit with their core guys. Need to pounce on something like that IMO. They could use an offense-for-defense swap and Bobby fits perfectly as tradeable salary. Then, once OKC gets eaten alive in the paint by either Jokic or Towns/Gobert in the Conference Finals, do the Brook for #12 trade but combine all your assets and flip that stuff (#12, #23, #33) to get the best perimeter player you can in that $20-30 million range. For argument's sake, throw in the 2031 1st and that's probably the Dejounte Murray trade package right there:

Dame
Murray
Middleton
Giannis
WCJ

Yeah, you'll basically have zero tradeable pick assets for the next 7-years, but what else is new? All those dudes are locked up the next 2-3 years.

I really like WCJ, and he’s becoming the starting point for a lot of trade packages for me. I also really like this premise here from you, but I’m struggling to find players that would be worth that package and only that package.

I think Murray fits, maybe BI, but then I have a whole lot of questions after that. Maybe some more could shake free as the off-season gets underway, but value-wise I’m struggling to come up with names.

It’s probably easier to use pieces of that package to bring in two more talented players, instead of one. I also think that direction may benefit us. Use WCJ as a situational starter. I like the idea of a couple other names you’ve thrown out - cam Johnson, Deandre hunter. You could have either of those guys situationally start beside Giannis, and then use the remaining asset on Caruso or the like. Leaves me wanting some in the backcourt, but I still like that team.

Turk Nowitzki wrote:

fansinceforever wrote:

Turk Nowitzki wrote:I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

Last season was more than injuries. That was a failure of coaching, preparation and each individual that played. We got waxed and embarrassed. Honestly, I'm not even sure if health this season guarantees we get by the Pacers..

Agree last season I'm not sure about but healthy Giannis changes everything about how we play and how we're defended.

This season I am like 100% sure we beat the Pacers in 5 or 6. That's not really even a question to me. People are already forgetting what kind of a monster healthy playoff Giannis is.

Giannis is an absolute beast but I didn't see anything from this team that guarantees that we beat the Pacers with him. Especially in 5.