PG Cavs: Bucks Run out of gas (in the first minute)

[PG Graveyard]

I don't think you'll ever be able to get this group as a whole to become an elite defensive squad, but I think they can become adequate if they just stop trying to pressure the ball so high up trying to go for turnovers (of which they don't create) and then the guards are in a bad position and get blown by while Brook gets put on an island making himself look bad too. There's just too much space for opposing guards to operate and I think it would help to get our guards closer to your better defenders.

More than anything this team doesn’t get back on defense and that is where Dame is worse than a traffic cone. He literally screened Ajax in one of those videos. Maybe he should just stay on the offensive end and cherry pick.

I’m surprised more people aren’t comparing him to Westbrook now. Both look great on tanking teams putting up great numbers but can’t play on a team with championship aspirations anymore. I really wish Giannis wasn’t so infatuated with playing with him

Probably because he just had his likely best statistical season last year, one year ago. And he's an elite shooter who's teams have always won more than they were supposed to prior to the last two years when they pulled the plug an tanked. In the last year they tried they 42-30 with him as the 1 best player and made the WCF a year or two before that with him as the best player.

You are overreacting here and putting more blame on the wrong spot. You could put prime Gary Payton on this D scheme and it would suck. But yes I do see his attitude/grumpiness and its not good and I'm guessing it is trickling down to him being worse on D. You're putting this all on him, which of course isn't totally unfair, but he's never had attitude/effort type issues in the past. The common denominator here is the terrible coach, my guess is he has no faith in the coach and system and its creating a negative attitude. Which if you've ever been in a workplace with a terrible boss you probably know how that goes. And this probably applies to almost everyone on the team, they have no faith in the system/process and then it just breeds a vibe of negativity and bad effort. The frustration is evident up and down the team, look at Brook/KM sniping at each other last night. Brook constantly complaining.

Getting back on D is certainly a trend, but its everyone not just dame.

If you swapped prime GP for Dame this team would be far better defensively. That’s just silly. You are trading one of the worst defensive players in the league (if not worst) for maybe the best guard defender ever.

I don’t think Dame is the only problem defensively but he’s the worst culprit and if his offense stinks he is unplayable. If you want to see better defense we should trade Dame.

[emunney]

We need Bud

I never understood the “we needed to move on” argument for Bud.

Bottom line: we are much much worse today than we were when we had Bud.

I think Griff is a far worse coach than Bud, and I don't want what I'm about to say to confuse or obscure that.

Right now we have a record of 28-13, a point differential of +3.8, and a SRS of 3.10.

Last year on January 23rd (closest I could find in the wayback machine), we were 29-17 with a point differential of +1.0 and a SRS of 0.99.

Khris had only played 7 games, of course, but there were some straight up mudpies in there, too. 41 point loss to the Grizzlies. 23 point New Year's Day loss to the Wizards. 29 point loss to the Hornets.

Again, Bud is a better coach. But the roster this year is better. It's not true that we're worse today than we were last year when we had Bud.

[DingleJerry]

More than anything this team doesn’t get back on defense and that is where Dame is worse than a traffic cone. He literally screened Ajax in one of those videos. Maybe he should just stay on the offensive end and cherry pick.

I’m surprised more people aren’t comparing him to Westbrook now. Both look great on tanking teams putting up great numbers but can’t play on a team with championship aspirations anymore. I really wish Giannis wasn’t so infatuated with playing with him

Probably because he just had his likely best statistical season last year, one year ago. And he's an elite shooter who's teams have always won more than they were supposed to prior to the last two years when they pulled the plug an tanked. In the last year they tried they 42-30 with him as the 1 best player and made the WCF a year or two before that with him as the best player.

You are overreacting here and putting more blame on the wrong spot. You could put prime Gary Payton on this D scheme and it would suck. But yes I do see his attitude/grumpiness and its not good and I'm guessing it is trickling down to him being worse on D. You're putting this all on him, which of course isn't totally unfair, but he's never had attitude/effort type issues in the past. The common denominator here is the terrible coach, my guess is he has no faith in the coach and system and its creating a negative attitude. Which if you've ever been in a workplace with a terrible boss you probably know how that goes. And this probably applies to almost everyone on the team, they have no faith in the system/process and then it just breeds a vibe of negativity and bad effort. The frustration is evident up and down the team, look at Brook/KM sniping at each other last night. Brook constantly complaining.

Getting back on D is certainly a trend, but its everyone not just dame.

If you swapped prime GP for Dame this team would be far better defensively. That’s just silly. You are trading one of the worst defensive players in the league (if not worst) for maybe the best guard defender ever.

I don’t think Dame is the only problem defensively but he’s the worst culprit and if his offense stinks he is unplayable. If you want to see better defense we should trade Dame.

I didn't say it wouldn't be better. I said it would still suck, and it would.

YEs we all know Dame isn't good at D but teams cover for guys like him all over the league. And they don't have Giannis behind him. This is pathetic. You are attributing this all to him when its the coach/system making it this extreme. Have you not watched Dame the last 10 years? That is the normal player, he's not all of a sudden crap 6 months later after having his best season.

[rilamann]

The people who keep saying we need Bud back are hilarious.

It's like they completely forgot that we lost 4-1 in the first round to an #8 seed last season under Bud.

I would be ecstatic if we fired Griffin today, but the Bucks actually have a better record through 41 games this season than they did last season.

My rants about Bud last season wasn't that he was horrible, it was that he was hilariously overrated as an NBA head coach.

If Griffin has been good at 1 thing this season, it has been proving my point how overrated of an NBA head coach Bud was.

Griffin has come in and been a complete train-wreck and we're still 1 game ahead of last year's pace with Bud through 41 games.

And all Griffin has to do is win more than 1 single solitary playoff game, and it will be an improvement over what Bud did in the playoffs last season.

I won't be happy if we only win 2 playoff games this season, but you can't argue that it wouldn't be an improvement over last season with Bud.

[PG Graveyard]

Probably because he just had his likely best statistical season last year, one year ago. And he's an elite shooter who's teams have always won more than they were supposed to prior to the last two years when they pulled the plug an tanked. In the last year they tried they 42-30 with him as the 1 best player and made the WCF a year or two before that with him as the best player.

You are overreacting here and putting more blame on the wrong spot. You could put prime Gary Payton on this D scheme and it would suck. But yes I do see his attitude/grumpiness and its not good and I'm guessing it is trickling down to him being worse on D. You're putting this all on him, which of course isn't totally unfair, but he's never had attitude/effort type issues in the past. The common denominator here is the terrible coach, my guess is he has no faith in the coach and system and its creating a negative attitude. Which if you've ever been in a workplace with a terrible boss you probably know how that goes. And this probably applies to almost everyone on the team, they have no faith in the system/process and then it just breeds a vibe of negativity and bad effort. The frustration is evident up and down the team, look at Brook/KM sniping at each other last night. Brook constantly complaining.

Getting back on D is certainly a trend, but its everyone not just dame.

If you swapped prime GP for Dame this team would be far better defensively. That’s just silly. You are trading one of the worst defensive players in the league (if not worst) for maybe the best guard defender ever.

I don’t think Dame is the only problem defensively but he’s the worst culprit and if his offense stinks he is unplayable. If you want to see better defense we should trade Dame.

I didn't say it wouldn't be better. I said it would still suck, and it would.

YEs we all know Dame isn't good at D but teams cover for guys like him all over the league. And they don't have Giannis behind him. This is pathetic. You are attributing this all to him when its the coach/system making it this extreme. Have you not watched Dame the last 10 years? That is the normal player, he's not all of a sudden crap 6 months later after having his best season.

Ok. Let me know when we can stop making excuses for Dame? My guess is we are at least a top 10 defense if we just didn’t make the Dame trade. Still not a title contender imo so I would think we would still be in a similar spot to as we are right now overall but owning a few more picks. Damage is done now though

[DingleJerry]

If you swapped prime GP for Dame this team would be far better defensively. That’s just silly. You are trading one of the worst defensive players in the league (if not worst) for maybe the best guard defender ever.

I don’t think Dame is the only problem defensively but he’s the worst culprit and if his offense stinks he is unplayable. If you want to see better defense we should trade Dame.

I didn't say it wouldn't be better. I said it would still suck, and it would.

YEs we all know Dame isn't good at D but teams cover for guys like him all over the league. And they don't have Giannis behind him. This is pathetic. You are attributing this all to him when its the coach/system making it this extreme. Have you not watched Dame the last 10 years? That is the normal player, he's not all of a sudden crap 6 months later after having his best season.

Ok. Let me know when we can stop making excuses for Dame? My guess is we are at least a top 10 defense if we just didn’t make the Dame trade. Still not a title contender imo so I would think we would still be in a similar spot to as we are right now overall but owning a few more picks. Damage is done now though

I actually did laugh out loud at that.

Dame: normal bad defender to trainwreck
Beaz: bad to trainwreck
Mid: bad to trainwreck
Giannis: Elite to mediocre
Brook: Elite to bad
Pat: mediocre to trainwreck
Portis: bad to trainwreck

What changed?

Every player on the team looks like crap on D. There's something off with the system, prep, effort, culture, etc. Maybe the Xs and Os of the system aren't bad but the players don't believe in it and aren't trying, idk. But something is way off, every player on the team don't just fall apart and have huge dropoffs magically at the same time

[PG Graveyard]

I didn't say it wouldn't be better. I said it would still suck, and it would.

YEs we all know Dame isn't good at D but teams cover for guys like him all over the league. And they don't have Giannis behind him. This is pathetic. You are attributing this all to him when its the coach/system making it this extreme. Have you not watched Dame the last 10 years? That is the normal player, he's not all of a sudden crap 6 months later after having his best season.

Ok. Let me know when we can stop making excuses for Dame? My guess is we are at least a top 10 defense if we just didn’t make the Dame trade. Still not a title contender imo so I would think we would still be in a similar spot to as we are right now overall but owning a few more picks. Damage is done now though

I actually did laugh out loud at that.

Dame: normal bad defender to trainwreck
Beaz: bad to trainwreck
Mid: bad to trainwreck
Giannis: Elite to mediocre
Brook: Elite to bad
Pat: mediocre to trainwreck
Portis: bad to trainwreck

What changed?

Every player on the team looks like crap on D. There's something off with the system, prep, effort, culture, etc. Maybe the Xs and Os of the system aren't bad but the players don't believe in it and aren't trying, idk. But something is way off, every player on the team don't just fall apart and have huge dropoffs magically at the same time

Like I said fire the coach because he isn’t good and definitely not equipped to coach this team but we lost several good to great defenders from last year and replaced them with awful defenders like Dame, Beasley Payne and now Mids is playing more. It really should be a surprise this team is 20th or so on defense. I would suspect we only get worse from here unless there are some roster changes here.

[PG Graveyard]

The people who keep saying we need Bud back are hilarious.

It's like they completely forgot that we lost 4-1 in the first round to an #8 seed last season under Bud.

I would be ecstatic if we fired Griffin today, but the Bucks actually have a better record through 41 games this season than they did last season.

My rants about Bud last season wasn't that he was horrible, it was that he was hilariously overrated as an NBA head coach.

If Griffin has been good at 1 thing this season, it has been proving my point how overrated of an NBA head coach Bud was.

Griffin has come in and been a complete train-wreck and we're still 1 game ahead of last year's pace with Bud through 41 games.

And all Griffin has to do is win more than 1 single solitary playoff game, and it will be an improvement over what Bud did in the playoffs last season.

I won't be happy if we only win 2 playoff games this season, but you can't argue that it wouldn't be an improvement over last season with Bud.

What do we do with Bud after we get swept by the Heat this year? Fire him again?

[jimmybones]

This whole year was about finding out if Love could play. The biggest question has been answered.

playing with house money etc

[DingleJerry]

Ok. Let me know when we can stop making excuses for Dame? My guess is we are at least a top 10 defense if we just didn’t make the Dame trade. Still not a title contender imo so I would think we would still be in a similar spot to as we are right now overall but owning a few more picks. Damage is done now though

I actually did laugh out loud at that.

Dame: normal bad defender to trainwreck
Beaz: bad to trainwreck
Mid: bad to trainwreck
Giannis: Elite to mediocre
Brook: Elite to bad
Pat: mediocre to trainwreck
Portis: bad to trainwreck

What changed?

Every player on the team looks like crap on D. There's something off with the system, prep, effort, culture, etc. Maybe the Xs and Os of the system aren't bad but the players don't believe in it and aren't trying, idk. But something is way off, every player on the team don't just fall apart and have huge dropoffs magically at the same time

Like I said fire the coach because he isn’t good and definitely not equipped to coach this team but we lost several good to great defenders from last year and replaced them with awful defenders like Dame, Beasley Payne and now Mids is playing more. It really should be a surprise this team is 20th or so on defense. I would suspect we only get worse from here unless there are some roster changes here.

Many if not most teams have 1/3 to half their rotations as poor individual defenders. Coaching is getting a system and plan in place, executing to maximize strengths and reduce weakness. I pointed out the Cavs with their top 3 guards being Mitchell, Garland, Levert. Half of MIA rotation is Herro, Love, Robinson, Lowry. The Bucks the last few years have had Allan, Portis, Mids, Pat. Philly has Maxey, Harris and dinosaurs like Batum, Oubre, Morris (I actually haven't watched to know but these guys are old/slow now). Rockets have FVV as their PG, then all rookies/youth who I assume are athletic but IDK much. Pelicans have CJ at PG, Zion, Valanceunous, Ingram. These are all top 10 defenses.

Yes of course a drop was going to happen, but to be a colossal mess should not when you still have Giannis and Brook. Most teams have to cover up for a couple bad defenders on the floor at a time. We're no different. My guess is the coach is an old school tough guy "just beat your man and do better" type approach. When it today's NBA that's impossible on D, the rules are against you and the players are just too Fn good. You have to work together as a team and have a plan. Like the emphasis on Dame and our Gaurd D here, yes of course its weak and a problem. But in todays NBA its so difficult for even good defenders to actually do much due to the rules. You almost have to plan on not being able to do much at point of attack and just have to work on the contingencies, plans, rotations, hedgings, etc.

[paulpressey25]

Again, Bud is a better coach. But the roster this year is better.

Correct. The team spent their unprotected 2029 1st Rounder and encumbered the 2028 and 2030 picks with swaps to the Blazers. That's a big chunk of assets that Grief has the benefit of on this roster, that Bud did not.

[nagawicka]

I don't think you'll ever be able to get this group as a whole to become an elite defensive squad, but I think they can become adequate if they just stop trying to pressure the ball so high up trying to go for turnovers (of which they don't create) and then the guards are in a bad position and get blown by while Brook gets put on an island making himself look bad too. There's just too much space for opposing guards to operate and I think it would help to get our guards closer to your better defenders.

More than anything this team doesn’t get back on defense and that is where Dame is worse than a traffic cone. He literally screened Ajax in one of those videos. Maybe he should just stay on the offensive end and cherry pick.

I’m surprised more people aren’t comparing him to Westbrook now. Both look great on tanking teams putting up great numbers but can’t play on a team with championship aspirations anymore. I really wish Giannis wasn’t so infatuated with playing with him

You're putting this all on him, which of course isn't totally unfair, but he's never had attitude/effort type issues in the past. The common denominator here is the terrible . . .

Not so, lots and lotsa talking heads around the league have in fact questioned Dame’s energy—tho it’s not really valid in my book to saddle him with all that—and criticized his dedication, defense, engagement with those around him, total commitment to winning—blah, blah, blah. It’s all so much bull, the premise and the conclusion. That stringing up any one guy would restore Our Rightful Cinderella Season in which ‘giannis’s ‘championship roster’ is handed Our Entitlement Trophy on a silk pillow without the hardship of actually earning it—that’s a load of bollocks. It’s laughable. Big boy britches require accepting that other teams radically improve, grocery shopping for free agents is a loser’s game (not counting Dame in that club here), there’s no replacement for chemistry and team ball, that you actually have to play the game. ‘Other players only succeed because of Giannis’ gravity’ LOL What a hoot. What is this. 29 teams lose every year, nothing plays out on the court as analyzed, and head cases like kyrie, harden and chris paul who we are told SHOULD win multiple titles are a dime a dozen. All that intoxicating hype never transformed the next bright shiny object into a player who can parachute in and magically make it rain without having to sync up with his new guys (& vice versa!). When the other shoe drops, who here thinks we’ll find out it was Haslam who said ‘Let’s go get the most expensive Porsche out there’, slapped cash on the table, and overruled Horst? He’s there to get Giannis signed, get the next guy signed, and he’d be involved in these decisions.

[Epicurus]

"Certainly Griff is a problem too and I can't find any redeeming qualities of him as a coach, but I don't know how you make any team even adequate defensively with Dame on it. Then you add Beasley and Mids to the mix. Good luck."
Actually for several seasons in Dame's tenure in Portland, the defense was at least adequate and beyond, even after the Aldridge et al. exodus. When Nurkic played at least 70 games, the defense was top half, even top 10. It seems to me that Lopez should work at least just as well, if and only if the coach knows how to blend them on the court.

Yes, the defense was downgraded by the trade; but in equal measure the offense was upgraded talent wise. A talented head coach would know how to optimize the offensive upgrade while minimizing the defensive downgrade. Despite the present offensive rating, I don't believe it is close to its offensive upgraded talent. On the other hand, the defensive downgrade appears maximize, not minimized.

[MickeyDavis]

Well said Epi

[FrieAaron]

Yeah, I looked earlier and throughout Dame's tenure in DRTG placement they were all over the place, top and bottom of the league. I didn't want to spend that much time digging into the why of each season but clearly it's possible to have a top 10 defense with Dame on the roster, so I'll just take Epi's word for it. And I don't think any of us are even expecting top 10. Somewhere in the mid-teens would be nice.

[Daver]

The people who keep saying we need Bud back are hilarious.

It's like they completely forgot that we lost 4-1 in the first round to an #8 seed last season under Bud.

I would be ecstatic if we fired Griffin today, but the Bucks actually have a better record through 41 games this season than they did last season.

My rants about Bud last season wasn't that he was horrible, it was that he was hilariously overrated as an NBA head coach.

If Griffin has been good at 1 thing this season, it has been proving my point how overrated of an NBA head coach Bud was.

Griffin has come in and been a complete train-wreck and we're still 1 game ahead of last year's pace with Bud through 41 games.

And all Griffin has to do is win more than 1 single solitary playoff game, and it will be an improvement over what Bud did in the playoffs last season.

I won't be happy if we only win 2 playoff games this season, but you can't argue that it wouldn't be an improvement over last season with Bud.

What do we do with Bud after we get swept by the Heat this year? Fire him again?

Just curious how much leeway we goung to give bud for all his failures come playoff time.with people still bringing up how great bud bud is (was) and absolutely forgetting how fu.. aweful he was in the POs not just with the bucks but also when he cgocked n sh.. his pants with those really good hawks teams also.
If it was anyother coach not named bud n his pissed away 3 #1 seeds gagged away at least 2 trips to the ECFs won 1 chip with alot of luck along the way only to lose to a 8 seed in tbe 1st round no one would be clamouring for that person back.
After last years debacle amoung the many other PO failures he had 90% of this board wanted him gone.
Yes they made a horrible choice picking AG but wtf bud had as many warts as AG has just alot of you are haters on AG for personal things that happened with him and no matter how good i think he would be doing there would still be more not liking than liking of him

[FrieAaron]

If it was anyother coach not named bud n his pissed away 3 #1 seeds gagged away at least 2 trips to the ECFs won 1 chip with alot of luck along the way only to lose to a 8 seed in tbe 1st round no one would be clamouring for that person back.

Did that same coach have to deal with no Khris for the entire series against Boston, an injured Giannis 11 minutes into game 1 and a championship three seasons ago? I'd still probably not be super excited about firing him.

[DingleJerry]

Yeah, I looked earlier and throughout Dame's tenure in DRTG placement they were all over the place, top and bottom of the league. I didn't want to spend that much time digging into the why of each season but clearly it's possible to have a top 10 defense with Dame on the roster, so I'll just take Epi's word for it. And I don't think any of us are even expecting top 10. Somewhere in the mid-teens would be nice.

Exactly. Mid teens without the just comical WTF aspects and disorganization would be good enough with what should be a top 3ish offense to give you a legit shot in the playoffs. Just to have some basic fundamental principals and consistency of some kind, even if the personnel does limit its ceiling. At least make the other team earn it.

Also, Buds 1 seed best team in ATL won two rounds and made the ECF only to lose to peak LBJ. That's not crapping the bed at all. Best record in the league with that no superstar roster, made the final four to lose to peak LBJ. That team did it all it could. To me the by far biggest blemish was blowing the 2-0 Toronto series, and its not even close. Still kick myself about that one and think its a bit overlooked here as what should've been moment. Bos with no KM and still made game 7, last year with a hobbled Giannis are crap luck. Though of course should've still beat MIA.

Also, since this has mostly been a defensive discussion. Other than last year's 1 series with a hobbled Giannis, Buds Ds in mke were not terrible/crap bedding etc in the playoffs. It was the O that was the problem in the playoffs. Really wish they'd have known they had Dame coming before deciding on Bud. He would've fixed the playoff O problems just on talent alone. Keep the same solid D core fundamentals, but results go a notch or two below due to Dame. I get the team felt it needed a 'shakeup' and coach was the easiest way to do it. In hindsight, the JRue/Dame trade would have been the shakeup.

[Daver]

If it was anyother coach not named bud n his pissed away 3 #1 seeds gagged away at least 2 trips to the ECFs won 1 chip with alot of luck along the way only to lose to a 8 seed in tbe 1st round no one would be clamouring for that person back.

Did that same coach have to deal with no Khris for the entire series against Boston, an injured Giannis 11 minutes into game 1 and a championship three seasons ago? I'd still probably not be super excited about firing him.

You xan as will others use the giannis got hurt in game 1 vs the heat as why they lost narrative its BS he played gsme 4 n 5 hod double double both games n missed 14 fts in a 2 point OT loss.Doesnt excuse buds absolute incompetence as a coach failing to call TOs failure to adjust on butler his queationable at best game decisions.
Many i mean many on this board think the bucks beat boston in 22 without midds is coach fri..bud made any kind of D adjustments on williams n horford when both went postal instead of standing there with his arms folded looking like hes ready to throw up his pasta.
Or the 19 series against toronto up 2-0 when nurse absolutely made bud look like a grade school coach.He gave us 1 title thank you but like maddons 1 title with the cubs( he was fired(not resigned) both had the core to win more n both failed misersbly

[PG Graveyard]

Again, Bud is a better coach. But the roster this year is better.

Correct. The team spent their unprotected 2029 1st Rounder and encumbered the 2028 and 2030 picks with swaps to the Blazers. That's a big chunk of assets that Grief has the benefit of on this roster, that Bud did not.

Yeah we made that swap and the roster isn’t improved it’s just different and a year older