PG Denver: Bench? What Bench?

[Ron Swanson]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

His home road spilts are not concerning? 53% vs 44% and 42% and 30% from 3 on the road are pretty big difference. Plus he was not very playble in the playoffs.

Also, he's literally the most inefficient regular rotation player on the team (57% TS) lol.

[Siefer]

Asking folks who have watched a lot of prime Dame - does it seem like he's having trouble gaining separation on the perimeter? He's still getting inside well, and gets a good whistle. His shooting numbers are down across the board, but they haven't gone off a cliff. Are we overreacting a bit following a career year at 32?

[German Athens]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

I think when we talk about Bobby being inefficient we mean this:

He has the second highest post up frequency in the league just behind Jokic, and his scoring efficiency is in the 38th percentile. Considering he’s very rarely a passer out of these post ups, that’s more reason to doubt that offensive setup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?dir=D&sort=POSS_PCT

Beyond that, league average ts% this year is 58.2, Bobby’s is 57.5. That’s not terrible, but it’s certainly not efficient.

League average efg% is 54.7, and Bobby’s is 55.2. Again, not bad, but not particularly efficient.

If we look at efficiency by position it paints a worse picture for Bobby. League average ts% for pf’s is 58.7, and for center’s it’s 62.1.

___

Bobby does have value with his rebounding, and the biggest play of his career is probably that offensive rebound and put back in game 5 against the Celtics when we won on the road, but too often we see his theoretically most valuable skill, putting the ball in the hoop, disappear against good physical teams while also not being an asset as a defender.

He doesn’t create easier looks for others, he’s not a rim protector, he’s not a switchable defender, he’s not a guy who can quickly attack a close out, and his self creation are slow back downs that pretty much end ball-movement and possessions. He’s a solid 3pt shooter with a slow release, he has nice touch around the hoop, and he has a pretty nice midrange shot, but the latter two he struggles to get against tough defenses, and those offensive sets usually take up a ton of time on the clock. We’d often be better off giving his looks to any of our top 4 guys, or setting up a shot for a perimeter shooter.

He’s not a terrible player, and he has a unique skillset in the league, but we are desperate for a defensive role player who does those role player things to fit with our starters. Bobby will never be a dude who plays 40 minutes in a playoff game for us due to who is ahead of him on our team. That defensive 2-guard may though.

[msiris]

what really mattered last night was the of lact execution down the stretch. Just playing dumb. Taking ontested shots. Turnoverswhen trying to do too much by yourself.

[milweskee]

There are other problems with the roster that do need to get figured out.. but...

Bobby gotta go.

Fake tough guy. Takes too many shots. His catch-and-shoot game is average.. I hate his 1v1 game. His minutes last night felt like Thanasis level bad.

[Ron Swanson]

Asking folks who have watched a lot of prime Dame - does it seem like he's having trouble gaining separation on the perimeter? He's still getting inside well, and gets a good whistle. His shooting numbers are down across the board, but they haven't gone off a cliff.

Career numbers with Blazers: 25.2/6.7/4.2 on 58.8% TS

2023: 25.1/6.8/4.3 on 60% TS

Are we overreacting a bit following a career year at 32?

[msiris]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

His home road spilts are not concerning? 53% vs 44% and 42% and 30% from 3 on the road are pretty big difference. Plus he was not very playble in the playoffs.

Also, he's literally the most inefficient regular rotation player on the team (57% TS) lol.

But what are his home road splits? What good is he if he can only get it up half the time¿

[milweskee]

I'm afraid Budenholzer was a "low IQ player whisperer" of sorts that maximized our capabilities with our shortcomings... and this franchise's best days are behind them. If they are not reined in, this whole roster is all kinds of stupid when it comes to BBIQ. Good luck To Doc Rivers trying to iron out all the bad habits of this roster.

[Neuromancer56]

Watching Doc's postgame press conference, is it just me or is Doc just way more insightful than Griff about what is going on in the game and what needs to be fixed and how?

[Neuromancer56]

I'm afraid Budenholzer was a "low IQ player whisperer" of sorts that maximized our capabilities with our shortcomings... and this franchise's best days are behind them. If they are not reined in, this whole roster is all kinds of stupid when it comes to BBIQ. Good luck To Doc Rivers trying to iron out all the bad habits of this roster.

There's lots of low hanging fruit. Like getting Bobby to pass the ball.

[MickeyDavis]

Watching Doc's postgame press conference, is it just me or is Doc just way more insightful than Griff about what is going on in the game and what needs to be fixed and how?

A piece of lint is more insightful than Griff

[Neuromancer56]

I would have gone Giannis at the 5 in the last few minutes, Brook was good at forcing Joker to be a scorer all game but the last few mins it's gotta be Giannis on him. We also need someone that can guard Murray, way too easy for him to get an easy mid range when they needed a bucket.

In his press conference Doc said that was his plan, but Giannis had too many fouls, so that's why he didn't go that route.

[jimmybones]

Watching Doc's postgame press conference, is it just me or is Doc just way more insightful than Griff about what is going on in the game and what needs to be fixed and how?

does a bear **** in the woods?

[Neuromancer56]

Watching Doc's postgame press conference, is it just me or is Doc just way more insightful than Griff about what is going on in the game and what needs to be fixed and how?

A piece of lint is more insightful than Griff

Yeah but I think Doc is pretty insightful in general. Is he a better coach than Bud? Hard to say because Bud always kept things pretty close to the vest in his press conferences.

[MiltownMadness]

Really enjoyed that game, reminded me of seasons of old. Season is about to get a lot more enjoyable, cheers.

Seasons of old we would’ve won this game because we owned the paint, but now we have to shoot well in addition to defend the paint well against a good team to win.

Nah man, this was 3rd game in 4 nights with brand new coach IN DENVER. Bucks almost never win this game in any season

[soxperry]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

His points per shot attempt and efg% are each around the 35th percentile for his position. His assist per usage is in the 2nd percentile. He is an inefficient black hole by those numbers.

Hes also a huge energy boost and fan favorite so...

[BigO]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

I think when we talk about Bobby being inefficient we mean this:

He has the second highest post up frequency in the league just behind Jokic, and his scoring efficiency is in the 38th percentile. Considering he’s very rarely a passer out of these post ups, that’s more reason to doubt that offensive setup.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?dir=D&sort=POSS_PCT

Beyond that, league average ts% this year is 58.2, Bobby’s is 57.5. That’s not terrible, but it’s certainly not efficient.

League average efg% is 54.7, and Bobby’s is 55.2. Again, not bad, but not particularly efficient.

If we look at efficiency by position it paints a worse picture for Bobby. League average ts% for pf’s is 58.7, and for center’s it’s 62.1.


Finally a reasoned take
___

Bobby does have value with his rebounding, and the biggest play of his career is probably that offensive rebound and put back in game 5 against the Celtics when we won on the road, but too often we see his theoretically most valuable skill, putting the ball in the hoop, disappear against good physical teams while also not being an asset as a defender.

He doesn’t create easier looks for others, he’s not a rim protector, he’s not a switchable defender, he’s not a guy who can quickly attack a close out, and his self creation are slow back downs that pretty much end ball-movement and possessions. He’s a solid 3pt shooter with a slow release, he has nice touch around the hoop, and he has a pretty nice midrange shot, but the latter two he struggles to get against tough defenses, and those offensive sets usually take up a ton of time on the clock. We’d often be better off giving his looks to any of our top 4 guys, or setting up a shot for a perimeter shooter.

He’s not a terrible player, and he has a unique skillset in the league, but we are desperate for a defensive role player who does those role player things to fit with our starters. Bobby will never be a dude who plays 40 minutes in a playoff game for us due to who is ahead of him on our team. That defensive 2-guard may though.

Finally, a reasoned take on Bobby. I agree with quite a bit here, except for the following:

1) Your take that he isn't a switchable defender is true about ever starter on the team, except Giannis, so that's not a Bobby thing.

In fact, he's much more switchable than several other starters. And I am not against trading him for a very good true switchable defender. But that player needs to be very good. The proposals for trading Bobby on this board show that he isn't valued . The Bucks know the value of his scoring and rebounding and I am hopeful they won't give him away for trash, as posters are proposing.

2)TS% is not a great stat in my mind. Look at the leaders and tell me if those are the people that you want the ball in their hands when you need a score and need someone to create.

Here are a few of the "inefficient" players who Bobby is ahead of in TS% this season-Mikal Bridges, Jaren jackson, Benedict Mathurin, Terry Rozier, Keegan Murray, Darius Garland, Ja Morant, Julius Randle, Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal, Fred Van Vleet and countless others who are considered good offensive players.

And Bobby's TS% this year is not far behind Jamaal Murray and last year it was better than Murrays. So TS% is one stat and in my mind, when looking at the players who lag behind on it vs those at the top, it's not a very good barometer of offensive value.

[DingleJerry]

Asking folks who have watched a lot of prime Dame - does it seem like he's having trouble gaining separation on the perimeter? He's still getting inside well, and gets a good whistle. His shooting numbers are down across the board, but they haven't gone off a cliff. Are we overreacting a bit following a career year at 32?

As pointed out he's really not far off. For long range shooters there is going to be off nights and there's only a handful of guys at Giannis/Joker/Embiid/prime LBJ types who almost never have a bad game. Folks are way overreacting any night dame doesn't have great shooting stats, I know we haven't had a guy like him here but that's just the way it is. Can't freak out every 1/6 stretch they have and act like they suck.

But from watching a ton and to what you specifically asked about, I'd say the main difference is there is less ball screens or at least successful ones. Majority of stuff in Por had a high ball screen or sending a double screen. That would get him in space a lot easier than the way its being done here. Of course, our genius ex coach made that guy F off though

[BigO]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

His points per shot attempt and efg% are each around the 35th percentile for his position. His assist per usage is in the 2nd percentile. He is an inefficient black hole by those numbers.

He's also a huge energy boost and fan favorite so...

Searching for stats to make him look bad is a great science on this board.

I looked at the ranking of TS% and EFG% and they don't at all pass the eye test in terms of players anyone would consider offensive threats.

I recommend everyone look at the link below on EFG and TS%.

Then look at the link on FG% and the difference is night and day in terms of who you would want on your team if you were building an offense. Are there anomalies on the lists-of course.

But by and large, not one GM would build an offense based on EFG or TS rankings, while many would build it based on the players in the second link.



https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=EFG_PCT

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/fieldGoalPct/dir/desc

[Bucksmaniac]

Really enjoyed that game, reminded me of seasons of old. Season is about to get a lot more enjoyable, cheers.

Seasons of old we would’ve won this game because we owned the paint, but now we have to shoot well in addition to defend the paint well against a good team to win.

Nah man, this was 3rd game in 4 nights with brand new coach IN DENVER. Bucks almost never win this game in any season

They beat Denver on a B2B in Bud’s first season. Enough with the excuses, Denver played a poor game by their standards, it was there for the taking and we sucked largely in the 2nd.