PG Denver: Bench? What Bench?

[paulpressey25]

Bobby is a good minutes eater and high calorie scorer/rebounder against bad teams. Think Armen Gilliam or Chris Gatling.

We just ask too much from him, because we don’t have a springy, shot blocking athletic 6-9 guy to backup Giannis or Brook.

[sidney lanier]

I liked the "don't let anybody tell you that you can't play defense" Dumbo's feather that Doc threw out there to the team. As much as I was indifferent to Griffin's shortcomings, I'm kind of excited about this new beginning.

[Wooderson]

Asking folks who have watched a lot of prime Dame - does it seem like he's having trouble gaining separation on the perimeter? He's still getting inside well, and gets a good whistle. His shooting numbers are down across the board, but they haven't gone off a cliff.

Career numbers with Blazers: 25.2/6.7/4.2 on 58.8% TS

2023: 25.1/6.8/4.3 on 60% TS

Are we overreacting a bit following a career year at 32?

Since 2020 he was 29 ppg with a 62% TS and 38% from 3. Given avg efficiency has been increasing he's materially down from his recent years.

[paulpressey25]

I liked the "don't let anybody tell you that you can't play defense" Dumbo's feather that Doc threw out there to the team. As much as I was indifferent to Griffin's shortcomings, I'm kind of excited about this new beginning.

Think the team played really well last night. The defense was effective for the most part, and made sense with the eye test.

[Wooderson]

2)TS% is not a great stat in my mind. Look at the leaders and tell me if those are the people that you want the ball in their hands when you need a score and need someone to create.

Here are a few of the "inefficient" players who Bobby is ahead of in TS% this season-Mikal Bridges, Jaren jackson, Benedict Mathurin, Terry Rozier, Keegan Murray, Darius Garland, Ja Morant, Julius Randle, Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal, Fred Van Vleet and countless others who are considered good offensive players.

And Bobby's TS% this year is not far behind Jamaal Murray and last year it was better than Murrays. So TS% is one stat and in my mind, when looking at the players who lag behind on it vs those at the top, it's not a very good barometer of offensive value.

You're grouping him with some guys who aren't mostly reliant on efficient scoring offense to have a positive impact (some create for others, some have more gravity, some are good to great defenders). The problem is Bobby's primary skill is scoring and a bit of additive spacing impact. But doesn't create very efficient offense for himself and looks to shoot nearly every time he touches the ball. Bobby should be at the 3 point line most of the time and a release valve later in the shock clock at best in terms of offensive output. Not running the offense through him with the 2nd unit. Problem is that diminishes his potential upside as he doesn't do much else, but it's still better for the team overall.

[CharityStripe34]

Seasons of old we would’ve won this game because we owned the paint, but now we have to shoot well in addition to defend the paint well against a good team to win.

Nah man, this was 3rd game in 4 nights with brand new coach IN DENVER. Bucks almost never win this game in any season

They beat Denver on a B2B in Bud’s first season. Enough with the excuses, Denver played a poor game by their standards, it was there for the taking and we sucked largely in the 2nd.

Yep, third quarter sloppiness put the game behind the eight-ball. And some unusual late-game sets involving Khris and Brook. I specifically remember around the 5 min mark in the 4th neither Dame nor Giannis touched the ball on 3-4 possessions, and they were either turnovers that led to a score or an awful shot.

Fixable things to a degree, but it'll take some finesse and gravitas from Doc to convince Khris to cede a chunk of his time with the ball when Dame is on the court.

[JimmyTheKid]

I was waiting for Dame time, but I feel like he didn't even attempt a jumpshot during dame time. Someone has to unlock him. (I just checked the last 5 minutes play by play, shows 2 missed layups almost exactly 5 minutes apart (5:19 and :24 seconds and that's it). That shouldn't happen.

OK I just paused on this for a second.

We have DAMIAN FKING LILLARD!!! DAMIAN GODDAMN LILLARD!!! And we got 1 layup attempt at 5 minutes and another at 24 seconds left. What in the actual FK!!!

Only in bucks fandom universe are we playing in a close game vs a title contender and Dame is on our team and Dame takes ZERO jumpshots during DAME TIME.

Everyone failed for that to happen. Dame, the players, the coaches.

That's gotta get fixed.

This is an ongoing problem and the fix is seemingly so g*d**mn simple. We saw a glimpse of it last week during those crunch time minutes while putting away the Cavs. Giannis and Dame pick and rolled every single offensive possession when Dame re-entered the game in the 4th. Pretty sure they scored all but one time down the floor. Giannis was getting dunks. Dame was getting open looks. Midds and Malik were getting open 3's. The defense was scrambling and nowhere to be found. I just don't understand not going to that action to initiate a half court offensive possession every.single.time. Giannis and Dame are on the floor together. I mean they both talked glowingly about the potential before the season even started. And here we are at the half way mark asking when they're going to actively dedicate themselves to it. Another thing for Doc to get straightened out.

[msiris]

I liked the "don't let anybody tell you that you can't play defense" Dumbo's feather that Doc threw out there to the team. As much as I was indifferent to Griffin's shortcomings, I'm kind of excited about this new beginning.

Think the team played really well last night. The defense was effective for the most part, and made sense with the eye test.

I agree. Someone said we don't need offense but last night it was our down fall. The lack of execution down the stretch was bad. Its these kind of teams we will be facing in the playoffs. I Love the we never win here anyways excuse. Lame. The fact that we looked stupd down the stretch with contested shots and turnovers is a reflection of our bbiq.

[MiltownMadness]

Seasons of old we would’ve won this game because we owned the paint, but now we have to shoot well in addition to defend the paint well against a good team to win.

Nah man, this was 3rd game in 4 nights with brand new coach IN DENVER. Bucks almost never win this game in any season

They beat Denver on a B2B in Bud’s first season. Enough with the excuses, Denver played a poor game by their standards, it was there for the taking and we sucked largely in the 2nd.

Just not really sure what you expected. There was a 95% chance we lose that game and we did, onto the next. Good and bad things to take from it, doesn't have to be exaggerated going either direction

[DingleJerry]

Tough road game vs a top title contender and you hung in during game 1. Biggest takeaway I'd have from the 4 games since firing is the D has simply been better. No more 40 pt quarters, 75 pt halves and 150 type scores. They've played games in the normal score range of the nba these days. Its progress.

[BigO]

2)TS% is not a great stat in my mind. Look at the leaders and tell me if those are the people that you want the ball in their hands when you need a score and need someone to create.

Here are a few of the "inefficient" players who Bobby is ahead of in TS% this season-Mikal Bridges, Jaren jackson, Benedict Mathurin, Terry Rozier, Keegan Murray, Darius Garland, Ja Morant, Julius Randle, Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal, Fred Van Vleet and countless others who are considered good offensive players.

And Bobby's TS% this year is not far behind Jamaal Murray and last year it was better than Murrays. So TS% is one stat and in my mind, when looking at the players who lag behind on it vs those at the top, it's not a very good barometer of offensive value.

You're grouping him with some guys who aren't mostly reliant on efficient scoring offense to have a positive impact (some create for others, some have more gravity, some are good to great defenders). The problem is Bobby's primary skill is scoring and a bit of additive spacing impact. But doesn't create very efficient offense for himself and looks to shoot nearly every time he touches the ball. Bobby should be at the 3 point line most of the time and a release valve later in the shock clock at best in terms of offensive output. Not running the offense through him with the 2nd unit. Problem is that diminishes his potential upside as he doesn't do much else, but it's still better for the team overall.

He almost averaged ten boards last year and in the first game with Doc had 14 boards, because Doc played him near the basket. It amazes me how much posters devalue rebounding.

The problem on offense is that he often plays without Giannis and/or Dame, so instead of being a great third, fourth or fifth option, he is defacto made into the first or second option. You notice that Bud also had him post up a lot.

[KidA24]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

These are both wildly factually incorrect for this season.

Bobby is dead last in TS% on the team for anyone with over 200 minutes played.

He is literally the least efficient guy to give the ball to on the team.

[German Athens]

The thing I like about Bobby that we pretty much never had on the team before he got here, is that he can confidently attack a close out by stepping into an open midrange look. I’m happy with that shot from him. We’ve seen it at times too - game 6 of the finals.

The problem is there pretty much has to be a perfect storm of events for that to happen. You need a fly-by for scenario to play out, but Bobby has such a slow release that players can often close out to him quick enough while remaining on balance.

[msiris]

Tough road game vs a top title contender and you hung in during game 1. Biggest takeaway I'd have from the 4 games since firing is the D has simply been better. No more 40 pt quarters, 75 pt halves and 150 type scores. They've played games in the normal score range of the nba these days. Its progress.

We are 2 and 2 since the firing Griff. The D s better which I like but it just might not matter. Sid is right. Players matter as well.

[KidA24]

The game was fun to watch and deserves some good analysis. But before I can get to that, the horrible takes in this thread about Bobby need to be addressed:

1) You Bobby haters wait till he has an inefficient night shooting and then swarm like flies on you know what. Where were you after the prior game where he scored 20 on high efficiency? RealGM posters represent the best in gross opportunism.

2) Bobby Portis is one of the most efficient scorers on the team. While his three point shooting is just under 38% (not great but certainly not bad), he is shooting almost 50% from the field overall. That means he is shooting way over 50% on twos.

3) His efficiency is why his coaches want him to post up and shoot. So those of you in this thread who claim he is inefficient, is it possible for you to reconsider your view, or is this something you were born with and can't give up?

4) Bobby averaged almost 10 rebounds a game last season. His numbers are way down because Griffin (he should be a RealGM poster) decided to play him way out on the court, away from where his strength is. You saw Doc play him down low and he got 12 rebounds. That's why he was in the game. He is an elite rebounder for his build and once again, defensive rebounding is a key part of playing defense. But many posters don't value rebounding, so they just ignore that part of his game.

Bobby Portis is a very good player. Not an all star, but certainly much more valuable than the horrible takes on this board would suggest.

His points per shot attempt and efg% are each around the 35th percentile for his position. His assist per usage is in the 2nd percentile. He is an inefficient black hole by those numbers.

He's also a huge energy boost and fan favorite so...

Searching for stats to make him look bad is a great science on this board.

I looked at the ranking of TS% and EFG% and they don't at all pass the eye test in terms of players anyone would consider offensive threats.

I recommend everyone look at the link below on EFG and TS%.

Then look at the link on FG% and the difference is night and day in terms of who you would want on your team if you were building an offense. Are there anomalies on the lists-of course.

But by and large, not one GM would build an offense based on EFG or TS rankings, while many would build it based on the players in the second link.



https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=EFG_PCT

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/fieldGoalPct/dir/desc

Now you're trying to tell us that TS% and eFG% don't matter. Turns out 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers, which TS% and eFG% take into account.

They also give context when combined with watching games.

DeAndre Jordan led the league in eFG% for multiple seasons, he also led the league in FG%.

So he's the hill you want to die on?

[DingleJerry]

Tough road game vs a top title contender and you hung in during game 1. Biggest takeaway I'd have from the 4 games since firing is the D has simply been better. No more 40 pt quarters, 75 pt halves and 150 type scores. They've played games in the normal score range of the nba these days. Its progress.

We are 2 and 2 since the firing Griff. The D s better which I like but it just might not matter. Sid is right. Players matter as well.

We have 3 months now to get things sorted out better. Step one is fix the trainwreck defensive system and just get back to normalcy on that front, so far that's been going well. Lots of time to improve other areas. Such as last night having our supposed closer basically not having the ball the last few minutes. Its gonna take some time with new coaches and no camp/preseason. I'd guess they won't take the ASB to do a kind of mini camp and will let the players have their break. Plus Giannis/Dame will be gone anyway for it.

[msiris]

2)TS% is not a great stat in my mind. Look at the leaders and tell me if those are the people that you want the ball in their hands when you need a score and need someone to create.

Here are a few of the "inefficient" players who Bobby is ahead of in TS% this season-Mikal Bridges, Jaren jackson, Benedict Mathurin, Terry Rozier, Keegan Murray, Darius Garland, Ja Morant, Julius Randle, Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal, Fred Van Vleet and countless others who are considered good offensive players.

And Bobby's TS% this year is not far behind Jamaal Murray and last year it was better than Murrays. So TS% is one stat and in my mind, when looking at the players who lag behind on it vs those at the top, it's not a very good barometer of offensive value.

You're grouping him with some guys who aren't mostly reliant on efficient scoring offense to have a positive impact (some create for others, some have more gravity, some are good to great defenders). The problem is Bobby's primary skill is scoring and a bit of additive spacing impact. But doesn't create very efficient offense for himself and looks to shoot nearly every time he touches the ball. Bobby should be at the 3 point line most of the time and a release valve later in the shock clock at best in terms of offensive output. Not running the offense through him with the 2nd unit. Problem is that diminishes his potential upside as he doesn't do much else, but it's still better for the team overall.

He almost averaged ten boards last year and in the first game with Doc had 14 boards, because Doc played him near the basket. It amazes me how much posters devalue rebounding.

The problem on offense is that he often plays without Giannis and/or Dame, so instead of being a great third, fourth or fifth option, he is defacto made into the first or second option. You notice that Bud also had him post up a lot.

2 for 13 just negates the14 rebounds. But just like we don't win in Denver excuse Bobby doesn't shoot well on the road excuse applies as well.

[msiris]

Tough road game vs a top title contender and you hung in during game 1. Biggest takeaway I'd have from the 4 games since firing is the D has simply been better. No more 40 pt quarters, 75 pt halves and 150 type scores. They've played games in the normal score range of the nba these days. Its progress.

We are 2 and 2 since the firing Griff. The D s better which I like but it just might not matter. Sid is right. Players matter as well.

We have 3 months now to get things sorted out better. Step one is fix the trainwreck defensive system and just get back to normalcy on that front, so far that's been going well. Lots of time to improve other areas. Such as last night having our supposed closer basically not having the ball the last few minutes. Its gonna take some time with new coaches and no camp/preseason. I'd guess they won't take the ASB to do a kind of mini camp and will let the players have their break. Plus Giannis/Dame will be gone anyway for it.

Anything can happen but I just don't see it with who we have. Hope we see some roster changes.

[Ron Swanson]

I will say, as much as I've been dismissing the obsession with the number of Dame/Giannis pick-and-rolls, this was certainly the game where you should have spammed it over and over again, especially in crunch time. Jokic was getting annihilated in the Brook pick & pop game and whenever Giannis had a sliver of space to attack the rim.

I'm confident they'll get it together with an actual grown-up on the bench now though. It's like people forget that even prime Lebron had to adjust his game to playing with D-Wade, and yet I still see people here griping about how it's all on one guy rather than it being a two-way street.

[MoreTrife]

Tough road game vs a top title contender and you hung in during game 1. Biggest takeaway I'd have from the 4 games since firing is the D has simply been better. No more 40 pt quarters, 75 pt halves and 150 type scores. They've played games in the normal score range of the nba these days. Its progress.

We are 2 and 2 since the firing Griff. The D s better which I like but it just might not matter. Sid is right. Players matter as well.

The two losses weren't glaring. They were the not-quite-back-to-back against the same team Cavs which always introduces a chaos factor and in Denver. I think the D being better is the best takeaway.