PG Denver: Bench? What Bench?

Wooderson · Post #161 » by **Wooderson** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 8:31 pm

BigO wrote:
Spoiler:
Wooderson wrote:
BigO wrote:2)TS% is not a great stat in my mind. Look at the leaders and tell me if those are the people that you want the ball in their hands when you need a score and need someone to create.

Here are a few of the "inefficient" players who Bobby is ahead of in TS% this season-Mikal Bridges, Jaren jackson, Benedict Mathurin, Terry Rozier, Keegan Murray, Darius Garland, Ja Morant, Julius Randle, Klay Thompson, Bradley Beal, Fred Van Vleet and countless others who are considered good offensive players.

And Bobby's TS% this year is not far behind Jamaal Murray and last year it was better than Murrays. So TS% is one stat and in my mind, when looking at the players who lag behind on it vs those at the top, it's not a very good barometer of offensive value.

You're grouping him with some guys who aren't mostly reliant on efficient scoring offense to have a positive impact (some create for others, some have more gravity, some are good to great defenders). The problem is Bobby's primary skill is scoring and a bit of additive spacing impact. But doesn't create very efficient offense for himself and looks to shoot nearly every time he touches the ball. Bobby should be at the 3 point line most of the time and a release valve later in the shock clock at best in terms of offensive output. Not running the offense through him with the 2nd unit. Problem is that diminishes his potential upside as he doesn't do much else, but it's still better for the team overall.

He almost averaged ten boards last year and in the first game with Doc had 14 boards, because Doc played him near the basket. It amazes me how much posters devalue rebounding.

The problem on offense is that he often plays without Giannis and/or Dame, so instead of being a great third, fourth or fifth option, he is defacto made into the first or second option. You notice that Bud also had him post up a lot.

BigO · Post #162 » by **BigO** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:09 pm

Wooderson wrote:
BigO wrote:
Spoiler:
Wooderson wrote:
You're grouping him with some guys who aren't mostly reliant on efficient scoring offense to have a positive impact (some create for others, some have more gravity, some are good to great defenders). The problem is Bobby's primary skill is scoring and a bit of additive spacing impact. But doesn't create very efficient offense for himself and looks to shoot nearly every time he touches the ball. Bobby should be at the 3 point line most of the time and a release valve later in the shock clock at best in terms of offensive output. Not running the offense through him with the 2nd unit. Problem is that diminishes his potential upside as he doesn't do much else, but it's still better for the team overall.

He almost averaged ten boards last year and in the first game with Doc had 14 boards, because Doc played him near the basket. It amazes me how much posters devalue rebounding.

The problem on offense is that he often plays without Giannis and/or Dame, so instead of being a great third, fourth or fifth option, he is defacto made into the first or second option. You notice that Bud also had him post up a lot.

He had 12 boards last night, not 14. Team rebounding is massively important. But last night was actually a perfect example of why individual rebound #s aren't a tell all be all. Look at all of Portis's rebounds below, most of them there's literally no Denver player in the area, completely uncontested. A couple there was one player but it was mostly right to Bobby. The biggest factor in the boards was the Bucks actually generating stops and Denver not crashing the glass.

1st: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=75&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A0%20Def%3A1)

2nd: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=88&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A0%20Def%3A2)

3rd and 4th: two offensive - tipped to himself and fouled on 2nd putback attempt, good play: https://www.nba.com/game/mil-vs-den-0022300667/play-by-play?period=All

5th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=226&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A3)

6th: semiuncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=230&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A4)

7th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=259&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A5)

8th: semicontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=304&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A6)

9th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=409&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A7)

10th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=441&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A8)

11th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=441&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A8)

12th: uncontested DRB: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=569&GameID=0022300667&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Portis%20REBOUND%20(Off%3A2%20Def%3A10)

Come on. You aren't actually going to dissect every rebound to try and prove his rebounding isn't important or that anybody can do it, are you?

Maybe you can dissect Pat's one rebound last night and Brook's two rebounds (ya, I know, he blocks out rather than rebounds). Why aren't rebounds falling in their lap?

BP averaged almost 10 rebounds last year and you are literally trying to minimize it.

Tell me, if Bobby is such a bad shooter, as some of you are arguing, and his rebounding is vastly overstated, why would any team give the Bucks a good player in return?

Better come up with better trade scenarios because no one is going to give up anything of value for over-hyped BP.

BigO · Post #163 » by **BigO** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:10 pm

pifhluk23 wrote:
BigO wrote:
soxperry wrote:

His points per shot attempt and efg% are each around the 35th percentile for his position. His assist per usage is in the 2nd percentile. He is an inefficient black hole by those numbers.

He's also a huge energy boost and fan favorite so...

Searching for stats to make him look bad is a great science on this board.

I looked at the ranking of TS% and EFG% and they don't at all pass the eye test in terms of players anyone would consider offensive threats.

I recommend everyone look at the link below on EFG and TS%.

Then look at the link on FG% and the difference is night and day in terms of who you would want on your team if you were building an offense. Are there anomalies on the lists-of course.

But by and large, not one GM would build an offense based on EFG or TS rankings, while many would build it based on the players in the second link.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=EFG_PCT

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/fieldGoalPct/dir/desc

Someone posted this yesterday or the day before but Bobby is night and day Home vs Road. He honestly should get DNPs on road games...

https://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3064482/bobby-portis

Now this is a stat I find really baffling. Were they so lopsided last year?

crkone · Post #164 » by **crkone** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:44 pm

BigO wrote:
pifhluk23 wrote:
BigO wrote:
Searching for stats to make him look bad is a great science on this board.

I looked at the ranking of TS% and EFG% and they don't at all pass the eye test in terms of players anyone would consider offensive threats.

I recommend everyone look at the link below on EFG and TS%.

Then look at the link on FG% and the difference is night and day in terms of who you would want on your team if you were building an offense. Are there anomalies on the lists-of course.

But by and large, not one GM would build an offense based on EFG or TS rankings, while many would build it based on the players in the second link.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=EFG_PCT

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/fieldGoalPct/dir/desc

Someone posted this yesterday or the day before but Bobby is night and day Home vs Road. He honestly should get DNPs on road games...

https://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3064482/bobby-portis

Now this is a stat I find really baffling. Were they so lopsided last year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/portibo01/splits/2023

msiris · Post #165 » by **msiris** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 9:57 pm

crkone wrote:
BigO wrote:
pifhluk23 wrote:
Someone posted this yesterday or the day before but Bobby is night and day Home vs Road. He honestly should get DNPs on road games...

https://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3064482/bobby-portis

Now this is a stat I find really baffling. Were they so lopsided last year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/portibo01/splits/2023

We have been saying for awhile now and he sounds surprised by it. Maybe he just likes to use his stats to support his Bobby boner.

BUCKnation · Post #166 » by **BUCKnation** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:06 pm

Yeah, Beasley isnt great, but I don't have much issue with the defense he played last night. Murray was just able to hit everything when he found an ounce of space, but they werent all easy.

He did the same thing last year against us in one of his only good games prior to the ASG during his ramp up and that was with the defenders we could throw on him last year.

MissKhriddleton · Post #167 » by **MissKhriddleton** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:06 pm

MissKhriddleton wrote:Somebody watch old Portland tape and tell us what’s wrong with Dame.

Watch on YouTube

BUCKnation · Post #168 » by **BUCKnation** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:07 pm

The bobby home/road splits look like baseball, righty/lefty splits. Crazy.

Baddy Chuck · Post #169 » by **Baddy Chuck** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:10 pm

KidA24 wrote:So DeAndre Jordan is one of the greatest players ever and Steph Curry isn't?

I didn't say it, you did.

DingleJerry · Post #170 » by **DingleJerry** » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:17 pm

MissKhriddleton wrote:
MissKhriddleton wrote:Somebody watch old Portland tape and tell us what’s wrong with Dame.

Watch on YouTube

Gee who said this "But from watching a ton and to what you specifically asked about, I'd say the main difference is there is less ball screens or at least successful ones. Majority of stuff in Por had a high ball screen or sending a double screen. That would get him in space a lot easier than the way its being done here. Of course, our genius ex coach made that guy F off though".

Look at the big man stiffs he's done that with, imagine if that was giannis.

buckboy · Post #171 » by **buckboy** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:36 am

Trade Portis asap before the league realizes he's useless half of the time.

MissKhriddleton · Post #172 » by **MissKhriddleton** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:01 am

Watch on YouTube

First 23 minutes is all Bucks/Nuggets and touches on all our favorite realgm discussions. Not sure who this guy is but he talks fast so must know his stuff.

BigO · Post #173 » by **BigO** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:43 pm

msiris wrote:
crkone wrote:
BigO wrote:
Now this is a stat I find really baffling. Were they so lopsided last year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/portibo01/splits/2023

We have been saying for awhile now and he sounds surprised by it. Maybe he just likes to use his stats to support his Bobby boner.

So last year the splits weren't like this year. In other words, interesting, but an anomaly.

TroyD92 · Post #174 » by **TroyD92** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:49 pm

BigO wrote:
Wooderson wrote:
BigO wrote:

Come on. You aren't actually going to dissect every rebound to try and prove his rebounding isn't important or that anybody can do it, are you?

He kinda did though

MartyConlonOnTheRun · Post #175 » by **MartyConlonOnTheRun** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:49 pm

BigO wrote:
msiris wrote:
crkone wrote:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/portibo01/splits/2023

We have been saying for awhile now and he sounds surprised by it. Maybe he just likes to use his stats to support his Bobby boner.

So last year the splits weren't like this year. In other words, interesting, but an anomaly.

It's not as pronounced but his TS% and I rating had pretty big swings.

msiris · Post #176 » by **msiris** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:30 pm

BigO wrote:
msiris wrote:
crkone wrote:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/portibo01/splits/2023

We have been saying for awhile now and he sounds surprised by it. Maybe he just likes to use his stats to support his Bobby boner.

So last year the splits weren't like this year. In other words, interesting, but an anomaly.

Him shooting 42% on 3s at home is another anomaly but a good one.

But when you look at his playoff numbers they are down from his regular season numbers. I guess I was upset because of his usage that night which only Giannis was higher. I see Bobby as an average player on a very good contract but who usage should never be that high. I hope its not a trend.

Post #177 » by **paulpressey25** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:32 pm

buckboy wrote:Trade Portis asap before the league realizes he's useless half of the time.

Who is the Herb Kohl/John Hammond team out there that would value his stats?

buckboy · Post #178 » by **buckboy** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:48 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
buckboy wrote:Trade Portis asap before the league realizes he's useless half of the time.

Who is the Herb Kohl/John Hammond team out there that would value his stats?

Orlando?

Post #179 » by **paulpressey25** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:14 pm

buckboy wrote:
Orlando?

They need guards and outside shooting though. Plenty of bigs already.

You might be able to get Huerter and Mitchell from the Kings for Bobby/2nd. But then we need another center/big to replace Bobby's minutes (which wouldn't be easy). Would require moving Pat + Marjon or the like for a big.

Or PJ + stuff from the Clippers

CharityStripe34 · Post #180 » by **CharityStripe34** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:27 pm

MissKhriddleton wrote:

Watch on YouTube

First 23 minutes is all Bucks/Nuggets and touches on all our favorite realgm discussions. Not sure who this guy is but he talks fast so must know his stuff.

One of the more underrated hoops podcasts around. He's always been bullish on Gianni and while he does value statistics, he also acknowledges that they aren't everything and will simply just examine tape.