PG Heat: Loss

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I could not just as easily draw that conclusion.

I could not draw that conclusion even in the most tortured of reasoning.

Bud's entire coaching career carries the millstone of playoff underachievement.

i viewed bud as the treasure that unleashed giannis and quite frankly the team around him to our first championship in 50 years.

and the "millstone of playoff underacheivement" is the term you use to descibe the guys who havent won a chip.... not the very very very few that have.

Hey, the same could be said about Doc.

Those Hawks teams were regular season titans and playoff patsies. Bucks blew playoff leads to the Celts and Raps and lost to the Heat in an historic collapse. That's Bud's postseason rep.

BUT they also won one. That's a certifiable BFD.

you do realize youre suggesting we could have had a dynasty level team except we got stuck with bud? is that what youre proposing? 2 or 3 championships over his 5 years? thats what youre saying?

tough sell considering before he got here and after he left we basically suck.

man... let me get up from this discussion. i dont even like this team right now so this is no good for me and im no good for you if youre still a believin

[DingleJerry]

Buds Hawks being playoff patsies is one of the most wrong things that has been accepted as truth in nba circles. Winning 60+ games with that no superstar roster, and two rounds of playoffs only to lose to absolute peak LBJ in the ECF should by no means be considered a negative on a coaching resume. They also won a round the next year too, only to lose to peak LBJ

[yannisk]

in 2024, Damian Lillard has a lower 3pt percentage (29.6%) than Giannis Antetokounmpo (30.2%)

The Bucks have played over 20 games since the turn of the year. Out of 11 Bucks players to have played at least 14 games since the start of the year, Lillard is 10th in 3P%, only rookie Andre Jackson Jr has lower.

[chonestown]

Buds Hawks being playoff patsies is one of the most wrong things that has been accepted as truth in nba circles. Winning 60+ games with that no superstar roster, and two rounds of playoffs only to lose to absolute peak LBJ in the ECF should by no means be considered a negative on a coaching resume. They also won a round the next year too, only to lose to peak LBJ

The year they went furthest, it took them 6 games to beat the 8th seed, 6th games to beat the Wiz only to get swept by Cleveland. That's the best year. Two shaky series wins and a pasting.

Bud in a nutshell is great regular season coach, clench your cheeks postseason coach. His teams have not had a second gear in the playoffs. That's borne out by what happened habitually.

[DingleJerry]

Buds Hawks being playoff patsies is one of the most wrong things that has been accepted as truth in nba circles. Winning 60+ games with that no superstar roster, and two rounds of playoffs only to lose to absolute peak LBJ in the ECF should by no means be considered a negative on a coaching resume. They also won a round the next year too, only to lose to peak LBJ

The year they went furthest, it took them 6 games to beat the 8th seed, 6th games to beat the Wiz only to get swept by Cleveland. That's the best year. Two shaky series wins and a pasting.

Bud in a nutshell is great regular season coach, clench your cheeks postseason coach. His teams have not had a second gear in the playoffs. That's borne out by what happened habitually.

How is that a negative on a coaching resume with the roster he had? Its nuts but yknow ringZZZ baby

[Chad34]

in 2024, Damian Lillard has a lower 3pt percentage (29.6%) than Giannis Antetokounmpo (30.2%)

The Bucks have played over 20 games since the turn of the year. Out of 11 Bucks players to have played at least 14 games since the start of the year, Lillard is 10th in 3P%, only rookie Andre Jackson Jr has lower.

Sad thing is the eye test confirms that. I actually feel more confident Giannis will make them lately

[raysbookclub]

We knew it would be a jagged learning curve with Doc and his assistants, just as it was with Griffin.

Last nights game goes well beyond the coaching. It is a Miami matchup problem.

We fired Bud for not being able to handle Miami.But we're learning the Miami problem wasn't all on Bud.

Their personnel, as coached by Spoelstra, has figured out how to contain Giannis, bother our other shooters, and in the meantime, get wide open looks themselves. We've seen it now for years.

Very true. Maybe someday officials will notice that every spread-eagle screen Bam sets is illegal and put a dent in Heat Culture. Until then, we need to find a way to counter the little Spo cheats that are built into the way they play, and I think Doc will.

Read on Twitter

The Heat offense, especially in the playoffs, is basically Bam doing illegal screens and freeing up their 3-point shooters. Even a 1-dimensional player like #55 can make an impact on the game in that offense. I say it every year when I see the Heat in the playoffs: force the refs to call a foul for illegal screens. Flop, draw attention. Force the refs to at least call it once or twice. Heat won't score more than 20-25 points a quarter if you do.

[JayMKE]

Are there weak RS coaches that excel in the playoffs?

[PG Graveyard]

in 2024, Damian Lillard has a lower 3pt percentage (29.6%) than Giannis Antetokounmpo (30.2%)

The Bucks have played over 20 games since the turn of the year. Out of 11 Bucks players to have played at least 14 games since the start of the year, Lillard is 10th in 3P%, only rookie Andre Jackson Jr has lower.

So probably not the 2nd best shooter in the nba like I was told. He’s probably not the 2nd best shooter on our team.

[chonestown]

Buds Hawks being playoff patsies is one of the most wrong things that has been accepted as truth in nba circles. Winning 60+ games with that no superstar roster, and two rounds of playoffs only to lose to absolute peak LBJ in the ECF should by no means be considered a negative on a coaching resume. They also won a round the next year too, only to lose to peak LBJ

The year they went furthest, it took them 6 games to beat the 8th seed, 6th games to beat the Wiz only to get swept by Cleveland. That's the best year. Two shaky series wins and a pasting.

Bud in a nutshell is great regular season coach, clench your cheeks postseason coach. His teams have not had a second gear in the playoffs. That's borne out by what happened habitually.

How is that a negative on a coaching resume with the roster he had? Its nuts but yknow ringZZZ baby

In the spirit of equitable treatment, perhaps you would like to assign a non-zero less than 1 coefficient in front of Bud's regular season win totals to attribute for inflated regular season performance so that postseason results are more palatable. Off the top of my head, maybe somewhere between 0.75 and 0.80. Maybe that eases the cognitive dissonance.

I didn't say sht about rings, but let's undergo this thought exercise:
Does two conference finals appearances over his Bucks tenure seem true or below expected performance?
Does one NBA finals appearance seem true or below expected performance?
Or for that matter, does it seem above performance?

Something too chew on.

[chonestown]

Potential rejoinder:

Read on Twitter

[DingleJerry]

The year they went furthest, it took them 6 games to beat the 8th seed, 6th games to beat the Wiz only to get swept by Cleveland. That's the best year. Two shaky series wins and a pasting.

Bud in a nutshell is great regular season coach, clench your cheeks postseason coach. His teams have not had a second gear in the playoffs. That's borne out by what happened habitually.

How is that a negative on a coaching resume with the roster he had? Its nuts but yknow ringZZZ baby

In the spirit of equitable treatment, perhaps you would like to assign a non-zero less than 1 coefficient in front of Bud's regular season win totals to attribute for inflated regular season performance so that postseason results are more palatable. Off the top of my head, maybe somewhere between 0.75 and 0.80. Maybe that eases the cognitive dissonance.

I didn't say sht about rings, but let's undergo this thought exercise:
Does two conference finals appearances over his Bucks tenure seem true or below expected performance?
Does one NBA finals appearance seem true or below expected performance?
Or for that matter, does it seem above performance?

Something too chew on.

Well if you're bashing a guy for not winning the ECF it sure seems ringzy to me, because wouldn't you be making the same argument if they lost in the finals?

I made no comment on his bucks tenure.

So on the ATL discussion somehow it is a negative on a coach to get lesser rosters to better records and higher seeds? That ATL team had no business having that record and it made it as far in the playoffs as anyone could reasonably expect. That is not a negative on a coach no matter how you want to spin it. He pretty much maximized that team as much as it could be

[chonestown]

Well if you're bashing a guy for not winning the ECF it sure seems ringzy to me, because wouldn't you be making the same argument if they lost in the finals?

I made no comment on his bucks tenure.

So on the ATL discussion somehow it is a negative on a coach to get lesser rosters to better records and higher seeds? That ATL team had no business having that record and it made it as far in the playoffs as anyone could reasonably expect. That is not a negative on a coach no matter how you want to spin it. He pretty much maximized that team as much as it could be

Choosing the ECF as the bar of attainable expectations was a way of avoiding this going into RINZZGXz but alas.

You don't get to 60 wins with merely a tryhard group. Somehow, this plucky group was able to place 4 all stars on the roster.

[DingleJerry]

Well if you're bashing a guy for not winning the ECF it sure seems ringzy to me, because wouldn't you be making the same argument if they lost in the finals?

I made no comment on his bucks tenure.

So on the ATL discussion somehow it is a negative on a coach to get lesser rosters to better records and higher seeds? That ATL team had no business having that record and it made it as far in the playoffs as anyone could reasonably expect. That is not a negative on a coach no matter how you want to spin it. He pretty much maximized that team as much as it could be

Choosing the ECF as the bar of attainable expectations was a way of avoiding this going into RINZZGXz but alas.

You don't get to 60 wins with merely a tryhard group. Somehow, this plucky group was able to place 4 all stars on the roster.

Gotcha so there is no way to win. If you take that ok roster and you win 47 games, lose 2nd round you suck. Or wait would that be better because it had lower expectations, so its good to win less games actually. If you win 62 and win two rounds you suck. No matter what he did other than win a ring and that is a negative stain on his coaching resume. or I guess you throw the caveat winning ECF and then you'd say it was good, forrrrr some reason I don't quite believe you there.

That was one of the best coaches jobs done and as good as anyone could coach that roster, it reached its absolute max potential. There is no logical way it should be viewed as a negative on a coach's resume. Unless of course you judge by one thing.

[mattg]

The fact is that Giannis is better with the ball in his hands than Lillard so asking Giannis to defer doesn't make a lot of sense, if Dame can't be effective without him pounding the ball then its simply a bad pairing and he never was as good as people thought to begin with. We need a guy who plays defense and compliments other players on offense more than we needed another guy dominating the ball & taking 20 shots a game. You guys said Murray was a bad fit but what we have right now I don't think is going to work between Dame & Giannis.

This is honestly an absurd, TRASH take. Giannis isn't better with the ball in his hands than Dame. We have a massive sample size of Giannis ball dominant offense surrounded by shooters/spacing with an elite macro shot profile coach being a flat out garbage offense in the post season. Giannis ball dominant offense doesn't remotely translate to the postseason vs top tier teams. We won a title in spite of our bad offense.

Dame's offensive impact with lesser talent than Giannis has played with over the last however many years has led to better offense than Giannis has. Like we have the data, it's undeniable. We lost to Miami last year again, due to our offense completely falling apart in 4th quarters, going 5+ minutes without being able to muster a single bucket.

So when you say stuff like this :

We need a guy who plays defense and compliments other players on offense more than we needed another guy dominating the ball & taking 20 shots a game

We have the guy to fill that role, it's Giannis, but he won't do it. Yeah Giannis can fill the box score like no one else in these regular season games, but that has never translated to the playoffs, and we have the obvious ability to utilize the other guy on the team who when the offense is run through him with lesser surrounding casts than Giannis plays with, generates stronger offense. Why would we minimize that guy on offense when that is the specific high impact thing that he provides just to insist on a different approach that has proven to fail multiple times? It's not like Giannis with the ball in his hands is leading to all his other teammates having maximized impact, in fact it's routinely been the opposite, that guys who excelled in the regular season become a shell in the post season who we have traded away specifically because they've been trash on offense.

Then factor in that when we ramp up Giannis usage even further than it already is, the team's advanced numbers fall off. Like last year Giannis had absolutely gaudy raw stats and insane usage, and it was obviously the worst Giannis season in years. Obvious on the eye test and the metrics, a paper tiger.

Either we figure out how to turn Giannis into an elite roll man who plays with Dame or we have zero chance to contend. And if Giannis can't share the ball with another elite on ball guy then we are done today as contenders forever, unless we trade the entire roster and become far and away the best defense in the league while all the other contenders simultaneously fall apart. If Giannis cannot play with elite on ball guys then who is his ideal roster of guys currently in the league? Like let's disregard if teams would trade dudes/how we would acquire them, what is the premier Giannis lineup possible if he can't play with on-ball players?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

there is no real such thing as a great regular season coach who cant coach in the playoffs. thats a fan thing to cover for a players thing for why that happens.

it has very little to do with coaching. like hardly at all. minor coaching infractions in the playoffs are NOT why you lose 7 game series once youre in the last 2 to 8 teams left. all the coaches are going to be solid but usually the winning rosters are either going to have...

1. more health
2. more talent
3. more chemistry and intangibles
4. more luck

coaching is like really low on the list for why a great team with a great coach loses to another great team with another great coach.

players who blame coaches for losing are honestly usually......worse losers

[HKPackFan]

We knew it would be a jagged learning curve with Doc and his assistants, just as it was with Griffin.

Last nights game goes well beyond the coaching. It is a Miami matchup problem.

We fired Bud for not being able to handle Miami.But we're learning the Miami problem wasn't all on Bud.

Their personnel, as coached by Spoelstra, has figured out how to contain Giannis, bother our other shooters, and in the meantime, get wide open looks themselves. We've seen it now for years.

I thought it was good to have this version of the bucks experience it with this coach.

Good to have it on film. Celtics and heat will cover shooters while slowing down giannis.

The shooters and the ball need to be in constant movement. Like guys this is a taste of the playoffs. You're not going to be wide open for a 3 and have time to dance or wiggle your butt. That's regular season, not post season.

I wanted this version of the bucks to experience it before the playoffs start.

[JayMKE]

Dude IDGAF what Dame did in Portland, we can look at the DATA this year and unless you make excuses for Dame his performance is completely unacceptable & not going to be good enough. Giannis doesn’t work in the postseason? Now that’s a hot take I wouldn’t expect to hear from somebody that calls themselves a Bucks fan, I guess Dame does despite never winning ****.

Playing defense and being able to catch & shoot is something you want everybody to do, ya that’s how I would construct a roster around Giannis that seems smart. I don’t like the idea of trading defense for offense with good defenders somehow covering for guys who don’t even bother, that’s a good way to suck at both. I think there should be base level expected and guys that don’t meet threshold don’t fit the system.

Maybe you can expect everybody to start playing completely different all the sudden but I feel you may be disappointed. We mostly need Dame to get excited about playing & winning in Milwaukee then he needs to hit his shots to such a degree that everything else is offset and then some. Hopefully he gets hot, I don’t expect his game to change significantly otherwise.

Its whatever too I would want to move on from Dame even if we win a championship because cash out that miracle isn’t going to repeat itself. This isn’t the slam dunk pairing we were sold and Dame is 35 years old, there’s no time. He gets his shot this year.

[BigO]

Well if you're bashing a guy for not winning the ECF it sure seems ringzy to me, because wouldn't you be making the same argument if they lost in the finals?

I made no comment on his bucks tenure.

So on the ATL discussion somehow it is a negative on a coach to get lesser rosters to better records and higher seeds? That ATL team had no business having that record and it made it as far in the playoffs as anyone could reasonably expect. That is not a negative on a coach no matter how you want to spin it. He pretty much maximized that team as much as it could be

Choosing the ECF as the bar of attainable expectations was a way of avoiding this going into RINZZGXz but alas.

You don't get to 60 wins with merely a tryhard group. Somehow, this plucky group was able to place 4 all stars on the roster.

Chonestown, I'm suing you for plagiarism. This is almost verbatim the argument I made three years ago about Bud's Atlanta teams. You're doing good. But the argument will never end. You should realize that the 4 all stars on his teams were only all stars due to Bud.

Some people think McCarthy was a great coach for winning one Super Bowl and that Ditka was a great coach for having one of the greatest teams ever. It's virtually the same argument. I look at talent and ask has the coach maximized the talent he has. Silly me.

[mattg]

Dude IDGAF what Dame did in Portland, we can look at the DATA this year and unless you make excuses for Dame his performance is completely unacceptable & not going to be good enough. Giannis doesn’t work in the postseason? Now that’s a hot take I wouldn’t expect to hear from somebody that calls themselves a Bucks fan, I guess Dame does despite never winning ****.

Playing defense and being able to catch & shoot is something you want everybody to do, ya that’s how I would construct a roster around Giannis that seems smart. I don’t like the idea of trading defense for offense with good defenders somehow covering for guys who don’t even bother, that’s a good way to suck at both. I think there should be base level expected and guys that don’t meet threshold don’t fit the system.

Maybe you can expect everybody to start playing completely different all the sudden but I feel you may be disappointed. We mostly need Dame to get excited about playing & winning in Milwaukee then he needs to hit his shots to such a degree that everything else is offset and then some. Hopefully he gets hot, I don’t expect his game to change significantly otherwise.

Its whatever too I would want to move on from Dame even if we win a championship because cash out that miracle isn’t going to repeat itself. This isn’t the slam dunk pairing we were sold and Dame is 35 years old, there’s no time. He gets his shot this year.

So what's the ideal Giannis lineup? Everyone can defend and catch and shoot. What's the lineup? Throw salary out the window or that guys cannot be traded for. What's the ideal lineup of guys who don't play with the ball in their hands?

Dame 100% needs to play better, I'm not arguing that, but this idea that Giannis should have the ball in his hands to the detriment of others is so dumb and not backed up by reality. We have what, 5 years of MVP level Giannis leading his team to a JUNK TIER playoff offense including some all time collapses. Giannis led offense isn't a thing in the playoffs at all, good coaches and teams game plan him and that's that. The fact that this is even being debated is absurd.

Like Giannis is going to get his 20 shots whether he's operating on ball or not, but Giannis on ball actively lessens the impact of our other elite player. If we put the ball in the hands of that other player and Giannis embraces it, he should be EVEN BETTER THAN HE IS WITH THE BALL IN HIS HANDS. If Giannis cannot do that that's a failure of the coaching staff and Giannis. Just like people are actively questioning if Dame truly wants to win a title despite what he says publicly based on his body language and everything else (and fair thing to critique), you have to offer up the same exact criticism towards Giannis if he remains inflexible in his approach. Does Giannis truly want to win more titles if he refuses to change his game for the betterment of the team? Or does he want to play his way and live with whatever the team can achieve playing in that manner?