PG Heat: Loss

[theFireBlanket]

Okay....so we got ass by belt

because Bev went from belt to ass against Denver to Chicago to cheer on Barstool Sports guys trying to sink 40 free throws in a row til the morning.

They tried making him stay overnight. He left.

But... thats why we lost. Just my theory.

[DingleJerry]

Well if you're bashing a guy for not winning the ECF it sure seems ringzy to me, because wouldn't you be making the same argument if they lost in the finals?

I made no comment on his bucks tenure.

So on the ATL discussion somehow it is a negative on a coach to get lesser rosters to better records and higher seeds? That ATL team had no business having that record and it made it as far in the playoffs as anyone could reasonably expect. That is not a negative on a coach no matter how you want to spin it. He pretty much maximized that team as much as it could be

Choosing the ECF as the bar of attainable expectations was a way of avoiding this going into RINZZGXz but alas.

You don't get to 60 wins with merely a tryhard group. Somehow, this plucky group was able to place 4 all stars on the roster.

Chonestown, I'm suing you for plagiarism. This is almost verbatim the argument I made three years ago about Bud's Atlanta teams. You're doing good. But the argument will never end. You should realize that the 4 all stars on his teams were only all stars due to Bud.

Some people think McCarthy was a great coach for winning one Super Bowl and that Ditka was a great coach for having one of the greatest teams ever. It's virtually the same argument. I look at talent and ask has the coach maximized the talent he has. Silly me.

So you think Bud did not maximize that teams talent? Team won 60 games, I guess they should've broke the record or something? Best player Joe Johnson should have beaten peak LBJ on a superteam? Forgot it was Cle LBJ not Heatles btw. I've yet to see this argument as to why that is other than you say so. but OK then yea solid argument, you clearly win.

Also, I thought everyone mocked All Star selections but I guess that's only when it suits a different argument. So in this case the one All Star game Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver ever made in their whole careers means they're all stars on par with LBJ Irving Love in their primes. You've convinced me, Bud is a joke for not beating that team. And yea, those two made the ASG because of their teams record, not because they were "all star" talented players, thus shown by how they never made another ASG.

[DingleJerry]

Dude IDGAF what Dame did in Portland, we can look at the DATA this year and unless you make excuses for Dame his performance is completely unacceptable & not going to be good enough. Giannis doesn’t work in the postseason? Now that’s a hot take I wouldn’t expect to hear from somebody that calls themselves a Bucks fan, I guess Dame does despite never winning ****.

Playing defense and being able to catch & shoot is something you want everybody to do, ya that’s how I would construct a roster around Giannis that seems smart. I don’t like the idea of trading defense for offense with good defenders somehow covering for guys who don’t even bother, that’s a good way to suck at both. I think there should be base level expected and guys that don’t meet threshold don’t fit the system.

Maybe you can expect everybody to start playing completely different all the sudden but I feel you may be disappointed. We mostly need Dame to get excited about playing & winning in Milwaukee then he needs to hit his shots to such a degree that everything else is offset and then some. Hopefully he gets hot, I don’t expect his game to change significantly otherwise.

Its whatever too I would want to move on from Dame even if we win a championship because cash out that miracle isn’t going to repeat itself. This isn’t the slam dunk pairing we were sold and Dame is 35 years old, there’s no time. He gets his shot this year.

So what's the ideal Giannis lineup? Everyone can defend and catch and shoot. What's the lineup? Throw salary out the window or that guys cannot be traded for. What's the ideal lineup of guys who don't play with the ball in their hands?

Dame 100% needs to play better, I'm not arguing that, but this idea that Giannis should have the ball in his hands to the detriment of others is so dumb and not backed up by reality. We have what, 5 years of MVP level Giannis leading his team to a JUNK TIER playoff offense including some all time collapses. Giannis led offense isn't a thing in the playoffs at all, good coaches and teams game plan him and that's that. The fact that this is even being debated is absurd.

Like Giannis is going to get his 20 shots whether he's operating on ball or not, but Giannis on ball actively lessens the impact of our other elite player. If we put the ball in the hands of that other player and Giannis embraces it, he should be EVEN BETTER THAN HE IS WITH THE BALL IN HIS HANDS. If Giannis cannot do that that's a failure of the coaching staff and Giannis. Just like people are actively questioning if Dame truly wants to win a title despite what he says publicly based on his body language and everything else (and fair thing to critique), you have to offer up the same exact criticism towards Giannis if he remains inflexible in his approach. Does Giannis truly want to win more titles if he refuses to change his game for the betterment of the team? Or does he want to play his way and live with whatever the team can achieve playing in that manner?

Think I've asked that like 10 times in this discussion and have yet to hear an answer. Who is the star player that we could trade for as Giannis's number 2 who is good enough that it is no longer the "supporting cast isn't good enough" but also does not play with the ball in his hands.

And was it really denied here that our offense has been trash in the playoffs? The data on that is also undeniable. Yet we're insisting on repeating it rather than actually trying to correct it. Sure, it still might not work. Dame maybe has fallen off (in spite of being as good as he's ever been last year), has a bad attitude and it doesn't work for whatever reason. But to just to not even try to do the thing he was acquired for and repeat the same trash offense of the last 5 years seems off. When it comes down to it, its 2024 so its almost impossible to have a good playoff offense if your PG (in this case its Giannis) can't shoot. And we're insisting on running it that way. Dame has been bad for 5-6 weeks now, no denying it. But to me its nuts to not even try to do the thing he was brought in to do. It clearly might fail if he keeps playing this poorly, but you spent all your assets at it and should do all you can to improve rather than repeating the same trash O they've ran out there for 5 years.

[Baddy Chuck]

I often think about how Duncan Robinson almost found himself out of the Heat's rotation forever until he got hot in a blowout Bucks playoff win and he and Spo remembered he could shoot the ball really good.

[BigO]

Choosing the ECF as the bar of attainable expectations was a way of avoiding this going into RINZZGXz but alas.

You don't get to 60 wins with merely a tryhard group. Somehow, this plucky group was able to place 4 all stars on the roster.

Chonestown, I'm suing you for plagiarism. This is almost verbatim the argument I made three years ago about Bud's Atlanta teams. You're doing good. But the argument will never end. You should realize that the 4 all stars on his teams were only all stars due to Bud.

Some people think McCarthy was a great coach for winning one Super Bowl and that Ditka was a great coach for having one of the greatest teams ever. It's virtually the same argument. I look at talent and ask has the coach maximized the talent he has. Silly me.

So you think Bud did not maximize that teams talent? Team won 60 games, I guess they should've broke the record or something? Best player Joe Johnson should have beaten peak LBJ on a superteam? Forgot it was Cle LBJ not Heatles btw. I've yet to see this argument as to why that is other than you say so. but OK then yea solid argument, you clearly win.

Also, I thought everyone mocked All Star selections but I guess that's only when it suits a different argument. So in this case the one All Star game Jeff Teague and Kyle Korver ever made in their whole careers means they're all stars on par with LBJ Irving Love in their primes. You've convinced me, Bud is a joke for not beating that team. And yea, those two made the ASG because of their teams record, not because they were "all star" talented players, thus shown by how they never made another ASG.

Yo make some good points and ask valid questions.

I haven't studied Atlanta in detail from years ago (nor do I intend to), but even conceding that the 4 all stars were not superstars, I don't think it's out of the question that a team with 4 all stars had that many wins in an abysmal eastern conference (people forget how bad it was).

I do know that after his 60 win season in Atlanta his teams got progressively worse, culminating in a 24 win season. So let's concede he is a decent coach.
I could ruminate over all the specific criticisms of Bud I made starting in his second year, but you all know the specifics. Bud, like most coaches, is a product of his talent.

His tenure coincided with the addition of Brook. It was the key to the Bucks playing good defense. In the one season where Brook was out, the Bucks went from a top 4 defense to 15th in the NBA.

I always like to mention Mike McCarthy and Ditka (there are many others), because I think the comparison fits so well. I believe with better coaching, the Packers could have won more Super Bowls than one and the same with the Bears.

[tsamo]

When teams build literal walls to stop Giannis in the playoffs and the rest of the team can't hit wide open shots when he generates them to save their lives, I'm not sure you can blame that on him, no matter how much some people seem to want to do so...
Not to say he's perfect or something but still, more times that not the rest of the team has shat the bed.

Dame has had some trouble shooting the ball so far this season compared to years past, or not, depending on how you view it, but what hurts us the most I think is that his playmaking is just not that good and he commits plenty of turnovers that way.

For example, he has made a bad pass a total of 91 times so far this season. The only players with more bad passes than him are Trae Young, Doncic, Lebron and Barnes. If you remove Barnes, all of them are attempting(and averaging) way more assists than him on a nightly basis. For comparison, Giannis has done so a total of 60 times this year so far, for 0.4 less assists.

This is not to say that Giannis is the superior ball handler, but that it is way closer that it should be. Maybe we are lucky that all of these things happen here and now, and Dame will round into form right in time for the playoffs.

Maybe over the break the team can practise some things under Doc.

[yannisk]

Lillard is not shooting the ball well so far and we try to find why. It could be that he is worried by personal reasons, his divorce, does not like the city or whatever. Or it is just a slump that it will sort itself. Some people think that he does not get the ball enough

lets look at the numbers, last year per 36
20.5 FGA 7.3 Assists
this year
17.8 FGA 6.9 Assists

it seems he gets ball plenty, he takes 2.7 less shots which does not seem excessive as this year he shares the floor with better players (by comparison Giannis takes 3.3 less shots per 36 compared to last year)

recent game against Portland, homecoming, 3/13 from 3p, 9/23 in total, how many shots does he need to get in rhythm?

Then there is the argument that he misses because he is used to shoot more difficult shots and now he gets lots of open catch and shoot and he is not used to that. Sorry but this is not serious, we are not going by design to take more difficult shots. If that's the problem (which i don't believe) he will get used to the easier shots.

I agree we should run more actions with him as a creator and Giannis as a roller. They try from time to time but they need work both of them Giannis does not seem as good as a roller as expected and Lillard usually cannot make the pass (while Middleton can for example)

[yannisk]

Think I've asked that like 10 times in this discussion and have yet to hear an answer. Who is the star player that we could trade for as Giannis's number 2 who is good enough that it is no longer the "supporting cast isn't good enough" but also does not play with the ball in his hands.

Lillard does play with the ball in his hands, he does not do "good things" with it because he is not at his best

lets compare Lillard with a guy that is famous for pounding the ball, Harden and a guy he has been compared to Curry

player touches per game
Lillard 77
Harden 75.4
Curry 69.3

time of possession
Lillard 7 (8th in the league)
Harden 6.8
Curry 5.2

Average seconds per touch
Lillard 5.41 (14th in the league)
Harden 5.43
Curry 4.51

Average dribbles per touch
Lillard 4.85
Harden 4.73
Curry 4.53

all stats from nba.com

There are players that have the ball more, Doncic or Trae Young for example. But is this the heliocentric game we want to play? and is Lillard as good as a play maker as these guys?

so to answer your questions Lillard could be a fine number two next to Giannis as long as he remembers how to shoot again

[DingleJerry]

Think I've asked that like 10 times in this discussion and have yet to hear an answer. Who is the star player that we could trade for as Giannis's number 2 who is good enough that it is no longer the "supporting cast isn't good enough" but also does not play with the ball in his hands.

Lillard does play with the ball in his hands, he does not do "good things" with it because he is not at his best

lets compare Lillard with a guy that is famous for pounding the ball, Harden and a guy he has been compared to Curry

player touches per game
Lillard 77
Harden 75.4
Curry 69.3

time of possession
Lillard 7 (8th in the league)
Harden 6.8
Curry 5.2

Average seconds per touch
Lillard 5.41 (14th in the league)
Harden 5.43
Curry 4.51

Average dribbles per touch
Lillard 4.85
Harden 4.73
Curry 4.53

all stats from nba.com

There are players that have the ball more, Doncic or Trae Young for example. But is this the heliocentric game we want to play? and is Lillard as good as a play maker as these guys?

so to answer your questions Lillard could be a fine number two next to Giannis as long as he remembers how to shoot again

There we go, so it should work. That's what I'm saying. It should work and you have to coach it up, use the next 30 games to get it running smoothly, etc.

If you go "it doesn't fit and we have to trade dame/blow it up". Well then what are you left with? Can't get ballhandlers, can't get bigs that can't shoot. You're left with mediocre 3D guys who will inevitably not be good enough when they're up against teams with legit stars on the wings. And your offense will be back to no motion standing/watching Giannis, which has sucked for 5 playoffs and all the fans going "the supporting cast isn't good enough, can't blame Giannis, get him some help".

[paulpressey25]

So you think Bud did not maximize that teams talent? Team won 60 games, I guess they should've broke the record or something? Best player Joe Johnson should have beaten peak LBJ on a superteam?

The argument for Bud that speaks to me, is look at all the multi-time NBA champs.

They all had cores that had at least two or three HOF (or HOF caliber players) on the squad AND had good role players.

Lakers - Shaq and Kobe and then Kobe and Pau
GSW - Klay, Steph, Draymond
Spurs - Duncan, Kawhi, Parker, Manu (and Robinson on the first few)
Heat - LeBron, Wade, Bosh

All the other 'one-time' champs didn't have the multiple HOF'ers.

Bucks - Giannis
Raptors - Strong team, but then Kawhi left
Pistons - Strong team, only won one
Cav's - LeBron and maybe Kyrie, but Kyrie imploded and LeBron left
Mavs - Dirk

[JayMKE]

If you go "it doesn't fit and we have to trade dame/blow it up". Well then what are you left with? Can't get ballhandlers, can't get bigs that can't shoot. You're left with mediocre 3D guys who will inevitably not be good enough when they're up against teams with legit stars on the wings. And your offense will be back to no motion standing/watching Giannis, which has sucked for 5 playoffs and all the fans going "the supporting cast isn't good enough, can't blame Giannis, get him some help".

You are catastrophizing, the issues are mostly exclusive Dame simply not being that guy for a number of reasons rather than Giannis not being able to play with people. Giannis isn't the one pouting, he's playing a well as he ever has. If Dame was 25 instead of 35 it would change the dynamic a lot, you could have patience & optimism trying to mold him to fit into our system but at 35 there is no time & there is a real problem of teaching an old dog new tricks. Do you guys think Dame is going to stay the same player until he's 38? How realistic is that? Are we a worse team this year with Murray rather than Dame? Based on his play so far, I don't think we would. Dame might still have value right now, he's 100% going to be anchor around this team's neck going forward. We can't be paying these old ass "core" players literally over twice the worth of their contribution out of "respect", the financial health and future of this team has to be taken into consideration. Blaming the Giannis for the playoff offense is dumb, Giannis is one of the few guys in the league that has an extra gear and its not his fault Jrue melted down or Khris got hurt or that Horsts dumb deadline trades didn't work. This team had a championship defense and really needed tweaks more than it needed a total revamping prioritizing offense over defense, this team got further with Jrue and Bledsoe as PGs than it will with Dame most likely. The overreaction was firing Bud because Giannis slipped on his ass game 1 against Miami, everything since has been cursed.

[DingleJerry]

So you think Bud did not maximize that teams talent? Team won 60 games, I guess they should've broke the record or something? Best player Joe Johnson should have beaten peak LBJ on a superteam?

The argument for Bud that speaks to me, is look at all the multi-time NBA champs.

They all had cores that had at least two or three HOF (or HOF caliber players) on the squad AND had good role players.

Lakers - Shaq and Kobe and then Kobe and Pau
GSW - Klay, Steph, Draymond
Spurs - Duncan, Kawhi, Parker, Manu (and Robinson on the first few)
Heat - LeBron, Wade, Bosh

All the other 'one-time' champs didn't have the multiple HOF'ers.

Bucks - Giannis
Raptors - Strong team, but then Kawhi left
Pistons - Strong team, only won one
Cav's - LeBron and maybe Kyrie, but Kyrie imploded and LeBron left
Mavs - Dirk

Hawks team--0 HOFers imo. Johnson did get to 20K points so maybe would get in eventually but probably shouldn't. Horfords NBA resume does not warrant it, but might get in due to the college championships. The other renowned All Stars with their 15 and 12 ppg avgs that year surprisingly have no chance.

You can do the same thing you did with 60+ win teams and basically get the same results

[Ron Swanson]

You guys realize that Joe Johnson wasn't on any of those Bud Hawks teams, right?

[paulpressey25]

You can do the same thing you did with 60+ win teams and basically get the same results

Would be an interesting study to look at the 60 win teams. Bud's Hawks team may be the only one of those without a HOF'er on it.

[DingleJerry]

If you go "it doesn't fit and we have to trade dame/blow it up". Well then what are you left with? Can't get ballhandlers, can't get bigs that can't shoot. You're left with mediocre 3D guys who will inevitably not be good enough when they're up against teams with legit stars on the wings. And your offense will be back to no motion standing/watching Giannis, which has sucked for 5 playoffs and all the fans going "the supporting cast isn't good enough, can't blame Giannis, get him some help".

You are catastrophizing, the issues are mostly exclusive Dame simply not being that guy for a number of reasons rather than Giannis not being able to play with people. Giannis isn't the one pouting, he's playing a well as he ever has. If Dame was 25 instead of 35 it would change the dynamic a lot, you could have patience & optimism trying to mold him to fit into our system but at 35 there is no time & there is a real problem of teaching an old dog new tricks. Do you guys think Dame is going to stay the same player until he's 38? How realistic is that? Are we a worse team this year with Murray rather than Dame? Based on his play so far, I don't think we would. Dame might still have value right now, he's 100% going to be anchor around this team's neck going forward. We can't be paying these old ass "core" players literally over twice the worth of their contribution out of "respect", the financial health and future of this team has to be taken into consideration. Blaming the Giannis for the playoff offense is dumb, Giannis is one of the few guys in the league that has an extra gear and its not his fault Jrue melted down or Khris got hurt or that Horsts dumb deadline trades didn't work. This team had a championship defense and really needed tweaks more than it needed a total revamping prioritizing offense over defense, this team got further with Jrue and Bledsoe as PGs than it will with Dame most likely. The overreaction was firing Bud because Giannis slipped on his ass game 1 against Miami, everything since has been cursed.

You are the one saying "it doesn't fit". That is what I'm talking about, you keep coming back to just bashing Dame while I try to stick to the team building aspects. Then its not about "fit". If its about fit and a ball handling player doesn't 'fit' then what are you left with to trade for?

No one is blaming Giannis for the playoff offense. He is amazing. But the team result sucks, its not his fault. Its because the other players aren't good enough, thus why we got a guy to address that exact problem. And we're saying to actually attempt to do it, you're saying nah just do the same thing that didn't work the last 5 years.

YEa Dame is old, if you could trade for a younger star I'd be for it too. I was the one saying that with Jrue on here and getting mocked for it. But your bashing misses that Dame was as good as he's been just last year, you're acting as if he just sucks all of a sudden. it is very unlikely he all of a sudden fell off a cliff a few months later, thus it is logical that different things can be done coaching-wise to get better results now that we don't have an absolute moron running things.

But again, who would that be and who would be good enough if you decide ballhandlers don't 'fit' though? My guess is if you panic trade Dame this offseason we'll be sitting here next playoffs complaining the supporting cast isn't good enough as we lose with Giannis averaging like 41 ppg on so-so efficiency in the playoffs. In addition, in the span of about 14 months we would have gone from a no headlines/drama/turmoil teams to one of the biggest ones in the league, not good.

[DingleJerry]

You guys realize that Joe Johnson wasn't on any of those Bud Hawks teams, right?

holy crap. He was gone by then. No I didn't. That makes this even worse/drastic. Wow. So, best player was Paul Millsap.

[paulpressey25]

You guys realize that Joe Johnson wasn't on any of those Bud Hawks teams, right?

Makes the 60 wins even all that more impressive. Imagine getting there with a backcourt of Jeff Teague and DeMarre Carroll.

[LUKE23]

Lillard is not 35, he's 33.

[PG Graveyard]

I often think about how Duncan Robinson almost found himself out of the Heat's rotation forever until he got hot in a blowout Bucks playoff win and he and Spo remembered he could shoot the ball really good.

I was furious in realtime when we let him get off a bunch of easy looks in that blowout. Rejuvenated his career

[Ron Swanson]

The 2015 Hawks and 2013 Nuggets are by far the two most over-achieving teams of the last decade when you consider the talent on those rosters. That Bud also won two playoff series (yeah, weak East but who cares?) and had that collection of guys as the only team in the Top-6 of both offense and defense should have unquestionably given him the reputation of a great head coach for all eternity. Pretty sure Bucks fans are the only people at this point who still doubt his resume/credentials.