PG: Memphis Blues

[randy84]

As to his defense, I certainly don't see a horrible defender. I am not a big defender of defensive stats, but since many on here are, here's what Statmuse says about who the Bucks best and worst defenders are:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/milwaukee-bucks-players-defensive-rating-this-season

According to this, BP is one of the best defenders on the team. Out of the regulars, only Brook and Giannis rate higher.

But since I'm old school, I rely mainly on my eye test and BP is one of the most valuable Bucks in my opinion and the old school stats confirm it.

There are plenty of Bucks players to go after about defense, mainly on the perimeter. Beasley has been bad, as has Lillard and Connaughton.

The fascination with a negative view of BP is weird to me. Are all the coaches who pick the USA team and Olympic team (he is on the big list before the final cuts) wrong? They could be, but I don't think so.

NBA.com has the most up to date stats. Accordingly, Bobby Portis' defensive rating is only better than Patty C, Jae Crowder, and AJax.

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612749/players-advanced?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Baddy Chuck beat me to it.

[Mtsportsfan]

It's crossed my mind as well. If we flame out in the first round I'll be open to it. Otherwise, when Giannis retires we're looking at another bleak 20 years.

We have zero first round picks until 2030. We’re not starting over lol

That is not true, we have 2 swaps with NO and another swap with POR in there IIRC.

Hear me out. It's hard. Get your favorite binky, cuddle it tight.. because I love Giannis too.


He's done in Milwaukee. Maybe done as a champion period. He hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now. His jump shot is the same, not good. While those things are all ok, if you are going to be a player with the ball in his hands the vast majority of times on offensive possessions you need to do three things well. 1. Handle the rock and not turn it over. 2. Know when to pass and not over dribble and stagnate the offense 3. Create for yourself and others. He does #3 well, although you could argue he hangs onto the ball way to long and it is a detriment to the shooters around him. Because even though he eventually passes the ball, he doesn't often hit the pocket he should to set up the shooter, like good passers such as Jokic do. Look at what's happened to Grayson Allen and DDV. Get them oustide MKE, where the ball moves... and all of a sudden they are world beaters shooting at high percentages. It's not a coincidence.

While he could still win a championship, I dont think he will unless he changes his game. He does it in small spurts, but he is so damn stubborn he just goes back to the same old. Get the ball at the top of the key and try to bullrush something into happening. While this works in the regular season, when teams WANT to play defense, they wall him off and he becomes much more ineffective. That's just the reality.

Defensively, he is disinterested. He had 4 rebounds against Memphis... 4... He also couldnt guard a wet paper bag. Is this just regular season normalcy? Maybe. The playoffs last season sugest to me that it is the status quo now. Him, Lopez, Dame, and Middleton are just on the wrong end of their careers to put a 4 round run in defensively anymore.

So while you say, we don't have draft picks anymore. I posit this. We will have 10+ 1st rounders if we clear the decks. We will get young talent in return too. Our "pieces" are all from different cars, years, and models. These pieces might fit better elsewhere, but together.. you're just left with a heap of undriveable ****. It's time to pack it in and sell, as a GM, you must be proactive. 1st piece to go has to be Dame or Giannis. Then the other follows immediately after. Then you sell off Lopez/Middleton.

You make some good points! But ask Detroit, Orlando and a few other clubs about high first round draft picks and how that has worked for them!
Admittedly Giannis is low IQ BB player , bit he is immense talent! Clean house on everybody else , get younger , quicker and more hungry. If we have to take a step back for one year to rid ourselves of some crippling salaries then so be it. Giannis is not a guy that you move on from!

[PG Graveyard]

Giannis from his post game interview with the Athletic last night

“There’s so many things that we have to do in order for us to be better,” Antetokounmpo said. “And it starts with, we have to want it. We have to want it. We have to want it. Like, what can I — what else should I say? Do we want it? Do we really want to win? Do we want to win?”

“We have to want it, man,” Antetokounmpo said. “Like enough with the talking. Enough with the, ‘our s— don’t-stink’ mentality. Do we really want it? Are we putting in the work? Are we going to put in the effort? Are we going to fight for what we think that we deserve or what our goals are trying to accomplish? That is the most important thing.

“Guys are tired, that’s an excuse. New coach, excuse. New system, excuse. New defense, excuse. All of it, it’s excuse. At the end of the day, you’re going to go out there and try to play basketball, try to compete and they competed harder than us today. They competed harder than us two days ago. We are not on track of what we are trying to do and I feel like the team feels it. The team feels it. I feel it.”

https://theathletic.com/5280208/2024/02/16/giannis-bucks-loss-grizzlies/

Pretty tired of these Giannis is frustrated quotes being a semi regular thing this year. He only has to look in the mirror for why the team continues to have troubles this season. Go look at his effort on both ends in the Denver game vs against Miami or the one in Memphis.

Giannis is busting his ass but he is waking up to the realization that he really **** up bringing Dame in.

[msiris]

Giannis from his post game interview with the Athletic last night





https://theathletic.com/5280208/2024/02/16/giannis-bucks-loss-grizzlies/

Pretty tired of these Giannis is frustrated quotes being a semi regular thing this year. He only has to look in the mirror for why the team continues to have troubles this season. Go look at his effort on both ends in the Denver game vs against Miami or the one in Memphis.

Giannis is busting his ass but he is waking up to the realization that he really **** up bringing Dame in.

Not Giannis fault that Dame doesn't bust his ass like him.

[BigO]

Bobby Portis gives up 1.19 PPP on isolation defensive possessions. Terrible. He has the highest frequency of players attacked there on the entire team (11.5%).

Bobby Portis gives up 65% at the rim defensively. Terrible. He has the highest frequency of players attacked there on the entire team (45.9%).

Bobby is being targeted and exploited defensively at absolutely hilarious levels this season.

Rebounds though.

The BP narrative crowd is in full force picking and choosing their stats. I love confirmation bias.

And when I give BP's defensive rating this season (3rd best on team; I only included it to show how easy this stat game can be played), it is ignored because.

I mean it's just not though. I don't know where they're sourcing their stats but Bobby Portis has a DRTG of 118.3, when he's off the court the Bucks have a defensive rating of 110.8.

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612749/onoffcourt-advanced?OpponentTeamID=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

I think you're confirming my point. You and I can find whatever stats we want to confirm our biases. In this case, two diametrically opposed stats. In the past, I've given my own bias on many of these advanced stats, especially defensive stats, which are much harder to quantify.

On offense, I'm a field goal percentage guy, along with the eye test.

But my eye test is different than many on here, not only regarding BP, but others. I can't imagine who would score and rebound off the bench without BP, but it appears many posters want to find out. Good luck with that.

In any case, the main problem on defense is at the guard spot. Of that, I m certain.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

It's crossed my mind as well. If we flame out in the first round I'll be open to it. Otherwise, when Giannis retires we're looking at another bleak 20 years.

We have zero first round picks until 2030. We’re not starting over lol

That is not true, we have 2 swaps with NO and another swap with POR in there IIRC.

Hear me out. It's hard. Get your favorite binky, cuddle it tight.. because I love Giannis too.


He's done in Milwaukee. Maybe done as a champion period. He hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now. His jump shot is the same, not good. While those things are all ok, if you are going to be a player with the ball in his hands the vast majority of times on offensive possessions you need to do three things well. 1. Handle the rock and not turn it over. 2. Know when to pass and not over dribble and stagnate the offense 3. Create for yourself and others. He does #3 well, although you could argue he hangs onto the ball way to long and it is a detriment to the shooters around him. Because even though he eventually passes the ball, he doesn't often hit the pocket he should to set up the shooter, like good passers such as Jokic do. Look at what's happened to Grayson Allen and DDV. Get them oustide MKE, where the ball moves... and all of a sudden they are world beaters shooting at high percentages. It's not a coincidence.

While he could still win a championship, I dont think he will unless he changes his game. He does it in small spurts, but he is so damn stubborn he just goes back to the same old. Get the ball at the top of the key and try to bullrush something into happening. While this works in the regular season, when teams WANT to play defense, they wall him off and he becomes much more ineffective. That's just the reality.

Defensively, he is disinterested. He had 4 rebounds against Memphis... 4... He also couldnt guard a wet paper bag. Is this just regular season normalcy? Maybe. The playoffs last season sugest to me that it is the status quo now. Him, Lopez, Dame, and Middleton are just on the wrong end of their careers to put a 4 round run in defensively anymore.

So while you say, we don't have draft picks anymore. I posit this. We will have 10+ 1st rounders if we clear the decks. We will get young talent in return too. Our "pieces" are all from different cars, years, and models. These pieces might fit better elsewhere, but together.. you're just left with a heap of undriveable ****. It's time to pack it in and sell, as a GM, you must be proactive. 1st piece to go has to be Dame or Giannis. Then the other follows immediately after. Then you sell off Lopez/Middleton.

on a bucks board your post will be a very unpopular but if you were discussing this topic with fans of other teams you would get alot of agreement.

obviously ive been suggesting it off and on for years. alot would depend on the return but absolutely it would be a haul thats for sure. might get 10 picks from okc all by themselves and thats before we even picked up a phone for anybody else on our roster

[Baddy Chuck]

I think you're confirming my point. You and I can find whatever stats we want to confirm our biases. In this case, two diametrically opposed stats. In the past, I've given my own bias on many of these advanced stats, especially defensive stats, which are much harder to quantify. .

LMAO, no I haven't. I've pointed out that you aren't even using a correct stat that in fact does prove my point that the Bucks are (considerably) worse with Bobby Portis on the court defensively. Nice try though. If you wanna find a correct stat that does show Bobby Portis being any bit useful there I'm all ears.

This is some facebook uncle trying to tell you if you don't accept his facebook fact checks that the earth is flat why should he trust scientists ****. And the new fangled "advanced stat mumbo jumbo" is literally counting points scored.

This crusade to try to convince people that Bobby Portis isn't a bad defender because of your eye test, or rebounds, or TEAM USA! is absolutely insane. Like this is some David Dunn level insanity. Bobby Portis has positives that help this team. He also has undeniable flaws that just straight up can't be ignored. Trying to gaslight people into believing the opposite of what they see every game, what basically every stat shows, is insane.

[BigO]

I think you're confirming my point. You and I can find whatever stats we want to confirm our biases. In this case, two diametrically opposed stats. In the past, I've given my own bias on many of these advanced stats, especially defensive stats, which are much harder to quantify. .

LMAO, no I haven't. I've pointed out that you aren't even using a correct stat that in fact does prove my point that the Bucks are (considerably) worse with Bobby Portis on the court defensively. Nice try though. If you wanna find a correct stat that does show Bobby Portis being any bit useful there I'm all ears.

This is some facebook uncle trying to tell you if you don't accept his facebook fact checks that the earth is flat why should he trust scientists ****. And the new fangled "advanced stat mumbo jumbo" is literally counting points scored.

This crusade to try to convince people that Bobby Portis isn't a bad defender because of your eye test, or rebounds, or TEAM USA! is absolutely insane. Like this is some David Dunn level insanity. Bobby Portis has positives that help this team. He also has undeniable flaws that just straight up can't be ignored. Trying to gaslight people into believing the opposite of what they see every game, what basically every stat shows, is insane.

So you're stat is the right one and the site I posted that shows he's not bad defensively is the wrong one and I should believe your stat? Talk about gaslighting.

We can agree that I'm never gonna convince you about Bobby.

[Baddy Chuck]

I think you're confirming my point. You and I can find whatever stats we want to confirm our biases. In this case, two diametrically opposed stats. In the past, I've given my own bias on many of these advanced stats, especially defensive stats, which are much harder to quantify. .

LMAO, no I haven't. I've pointed out that you aren't even using a correct stat that in fact does prove my point that the Bucks are (considerably) worse with Bobby Portis on the court defensively. Nice try though. If you wanna find a correct stat that does show Bobby Portis being any bit useful there I'm all ears.

This is some facebook uncle trying to tell you if you don't accept his facebook fact checks that the earth is flat why should he trust scientists ****. And the new fangled "advanced stat mumbo jumbo" is literally counting points scored.

This crusade to try to convince people that Bobby Portis isn't a bad defender because of your eye test, or rebounds, or TEAM USA! is absolutely insane. Like this is some David Dunn level insanity. Bobby Portis has positives that help this team. He also has undeniable flaws that just straight up can't be ignored. Trying to gaslight people into believing the opposite of what they see every game, what basically every stat shows, is insane.

So you're stat is the right one and the site I posted that shows he's not bad defensively is the wrong one and I should believe your stat? Talk about gaslighting.

We can agree that I'm never gonna convince you about Bobby.

Dude, DRTG is literally adding up points. It's about as basic of a stat as their is. The one you showed just simply is not correct in using basic addition and division. This **** isn't rocket science.

[paulpressey25]

Why are the statmuse and nba.com DRTG stats different for Bobby?

[JayMKE]

It's crossed my mind as well. If we flame out in the first round I'll be open to it. Otherwise, when Giannis retires we're looking at another bleak 20 years.

We have zero first round picks until 2030. We’re not starting over lol

That is not true, we have 2 swaps with NO and another swap with POR in there IIRC.

Hear me out. It's hard. Get your favorite binky, cuddle it tight.. because I love Giannis too.


He's done in Milwaukee. Maybe done as a champion period. He hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now. His jump shot is the same, not good. While those things are all ok, if you are going to be a player with the ball in his hands the vast majority of times on offensive possessions you need to do three things well. 1. Handle the rock and not turn it over. 2. Know when to pass and not over dribble and stagnate the offense 3. Create for yourself and others. He does #3 well, although you could argue he hangs onto the ball way to long and it is a detriment to the shooters around him. Because even though he eventually passes the ball, he doesn't often hit the pocket he should to set up the shooter, like good passers such as Jokic do. Look at what's happened to Grayson Allen and DDV. Get them oustide MKE, where the ball moves... and all of a sudden they are world beaters shooting at high percentages. It's not a coincidence.

While he could still win a championship, I dont think he will unless he changes his game. He does it in small spurts, but he is so damn stubborn he just goes back to the same old. Get the ball at the top of the key and try to bullrush something into happening. While this works in the regular season, when teams WANT to play defense, they wall him off and he becomes much more ineffective. That's just the reality.

Defensively, he is disinterested. He had 4 rebounds against Memphis... 4... He also couldnt guard a wet paper bag. Is this just regular season normalcy? Maybe. The playoffs last season sugest to me that it is the status quo now. Him, Lopez, Dame, and Middleton are just on the wrong end of their careers to put a 4 round run in defensively anymore.

So while you say, we don't have draft picks anymore. I posit this. We will have 10+ 1st rounders if we clear the decks. We will get young talent in return too. Our "pieces" are all from different cars, years, and models. These pieces might fit better elsewhere, but together.. you're just left with a heap of undriveable ****. It's time to pack it in and sell, as a GM, you must be proactive. 1st piece to go has to be Dame or Giannis. Then the other follows immediately after. Then you sell off Lopez/Middleton.

Yeah this is nonsense, Giannis is as good as he ever has been and is the only guy that consistently raises his level of play when need be. You could pair Giannis with G-Leaguers and he’d raise the basement of that team to the playoffs, reloading with him is the easiest thing we can do.

Im on board trading Dame but that will be to bring in a younger core & free up space for Giannis 2nd act. The Lakers are a good target, the picks we’d have then would easy to reroute for better running mates. worst case scenario is basically where were at now.


Also fire horst

[German Athens]

Y’all can miss me with the “Giannis hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now” BS.

Good grief.

[CharityStripe34]

Trying to be "cool" by claiming Giannis is somehow past his prime and we should think about trading him is amusing. Especially since he's having his most efficient season in years. He's certainly been coasting on defense at times, because I think he's trying to save himself to score/assist. So, yea, if he makes the 2nd or 3rd team all-defense instead of unanimous 1st team...okay. I contend it's at least a fair argument to say that him going balls out to be both elite offensively and DPOY-level defensively will crush him by the time the playoffs roll around. And I get annoyed like many here when he's in the right position defensively but contests meekly or doesn't chase down every rebound. He's been keeping the team afloat this season regardless, and we're only going as far as Dame and Khris take us beyond that (assuming Freak stays at this level).

Kind of annoying that we have to hope that a bench mob of Gallinari, Bobby and Beverly (with some Green/AJax sprinkled in) can be solid rotational players in the playoffs, but that's the price of getting Dame. Which is why hopefully the ASB does some good for him mentally to decompress a bit and just play more freely.

[Siefer]

Yeah I don't think any of the bench stuff is shocking, but Bobby's numbers did catch me a bit. PC, Crowder, and Bobby are boat anchors right now. I dunno how they fix this beyond running the starters as much as possible. Bobby is 28 and we know he's capable of being a good bench guy. Maybe Pat has one more playoffs in him? I have almost no hope for Jae, though.

[emunney]

Why are the statmuse and nba.com DRTG stats different for Bobby?

Statmuse is trash. Might as well ask grok.

[tydett]

Y’all can miss me with the “Giannis hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now” BS.

Good grief.

One of the more absurd throw away lines in a rant I've read here. Giannis is closer to top 10 than he is to being outside the top 50.

[stillgotgame]

It's crossed my mind as well. If we flame out in the first round I'll be open to it. Otherwise, when Giannis retires we're looking at another bleak 20 years.

We have zero first round picks until 2030. We’re not starting over lol

That is not true, we have 2 swaps with NO and another swap with POR in there IIRC.

Hear me out. It's hard. Get your favorite binky, cuddle it tight.. because I love Giannis too.


He's done in Milwaukee. Maybe done as a champion period. He hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now. His jump shot is the same, not good. While those things are all ok, if you are going to be a player with the ball in his hands the vast majority of times on offensive possessions you need to do three things well. 1. Handle the rock and not turn it over. 2. Know when to pass and not over dribble and stagnate the offense 3. Create for yourself and others. He does #3 well, although you could argue he hangs onto the ball way to long and it is a detriment to the shooters around him. Because even though he eventually passes the ball, he doesn't often hit the pocket he should to set up the shooter, like good passers such as Jokic do. Look at what's happened to Grayson Allen and DDV. Get them oustide MKE, where the ball moves... and all of a sudden they are world beaters shooting at high percentages. It's not a coincidence.

While he could still win a championship, I dont think he will unless he changes his game. He does it in small spurts, but he is so damn stubborn he just goes back to the same old. Get the ball at the top of the key and try to bullrush something into happening. While this works in the regular season, when teams WANT to play defense, they wall him off and he becomes much more ineffective. That's just the reality.

Defensively, he is disinterested. He had 4 rebounds against Memphis... 4... He also couldnt guard a wet paper bag. Is this just regular season normalcy? Maybe. The playoffs last season sugest to me that it is the status quo now. Him, Lopez, Dame, and Middleton are just on the wrong end of their careers to put a 4 round run in defensively anymore.

So while you say, we don't have draft picks anymore. I posit this. We will have 10+ 1st rounders if we clear the decks. We will get young talent in return too. Our "pieces" are all from different cars, years, and models. These pieces might fit better elsewhere, but together.. you're just left with a heap of undriveable ****. It's time to pack it in and sell, as a GM, you must be proactive. 1st piece to go has to be Dame or Giannis. Then the other follows immediately after. Then you sell off Lopez/Middleton.

Wow, just wow.

He's having his best season offensively. With career high 65.1 TS% he's statistically the most efficient high volume player in the NBA.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*30:GP*G*30:USG_PCT*G*25&Season=2023-24&dir=-1&sort=TS_PCT

On defense there's clearly a disconnect between him and coaching, but I'm sure that can be worked out.

Put the pipe down, it'll be ok.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Trying to be "cool" by claiming Giannis is somehow past his prime and we should think about trading him is amusing.

its a message board. this has nothing to do with being cool to suggest what he said anymore then disagreeing with it and mocking somebody personally over it in the strongest terms makes you cool.

but practically, and dealing giannis right now absolutely isnt.... then even if we were horst it has to weigh into your thinking in the back of your mind what the future holds and what his value is. hes the greatest asset the franchise has ever had and if its not translating to winning and all the moves you make around him are supposed to work on paper but they dont.... and every new coach seems to backfire into a new low.....then what? then at what point do you consider it and perhaps consider it on our terms not his?

i think posing the question, as i have from time to time.....in a setting like this.... is natural.

and maybe keeping him forever unless he demands out regardless is the right move too. i wont deny that obviously and may even lean heavily towards it quite frankly. that is always ignored when i bring it up. but im not 100% and i never will be.

anyway maybe on this forum the suggestion will always be a no go but on the general board it would draw a fine discussion among the level heads. here i think it could be an even better discussion but again... youd have to be level headed and understand what the premise is. responses like "trade giannis youre nuts!"... accomplish little. its all that hypothetical that im sure horst even considers from time to time as all gms would with their guys.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

We have zero first round picks until 2030. We’re not starting over lol

That is not true, we have 2 swaps with NO and another swap with POR in there IIRC.

Hear me out. It's hard. Get your favorite binky, cuddle it tight.. because I love Giannis too.


He's done in Milwaukee. Maybe done as a champion period. He hasn't progressed into that top 50 players all-time like he should have by now. His jump shot is the same, not good. While those things are all ok, if you are going to be a player with the ball in his hands the vast majority of times on offensive possessions you need to do three things well. 1. Handle the rock and not turn it over. 2. Know when to pass and not over dribble and stagnate the offense 3. Create for yourself and others. He does #3 well, although you could argue he hangs onto the ball way to long and it is a detriment to the shooters around him. Because even though he eventually passes the ball, he doesn't often hit the pocket he should to set up the shooter, like good passers such as Jokic do. Look at what's happened to Grayson Allen and DDV. Get them oustide MKE, where the ball moves... and all of a sudden they are world beaters shooting at high percentages. It's not a coincidence.

While he could still win a championship, I dont think he will unless he changes his game. He does it in small spurts, but he is so damn stubborn he just goes back to the same old. Get the ball at the top of the key and try to bullrush something into happening. While this works in the regular season, when teams WANT to play defense, they wall him off and he becomes much more ineffective. That's just the reality.

Defensively, he is disinterested. He had 4 rebounds against Memphis... 4... He also couldnt guard a wet paper bag. Is this just regular season normalcy? Maybe. The playoffs last season sugest to me that it is the status quo now. Him, Lopez, Dame, and Middleton are just on the wrong end of their careers to put a 4 round run in defensively anymore.

So while you say, we don't have draft picks anymore. I posit this. We will have 10+ 1st rounders if we clear the decks. We will get young talent in return too. Our "pieces" are all from different cars, years, and models. These pieces might fit better elsewhere, but together.. you're just left with a heap of undriveable ****. It's time to pack it in and sell, as a GM, you must be proactive. 1st piece to go has to be Dame or Giannis. Then the other follows immediately after. Then you sell off Lopez/Middleton.

Wow, just wow.

He's having his best season offensively. With career high 65.1 TS% he's statistically the most efficient high volume player in the NBA.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*30:GP*G*30:USG_PCT*G*25&Season=2023-24&dir=-1&sort=TS_PCT

On defense there's clearly a disconnect between him and coaching, but I'm sure that can be worked out.

Put the pipe down, it'll be ok.

i think we all at some point have to move past the individual offensive numbers..... especially comparing them in a historical way to years of the past. numbers are flying right now everywhere but some guys win and some guys dont.

whatever is wrong with this team going back to last years playoffs, which were affected by injury..... need to be corrected and its not anything to do with ts%. the ts% on this team across the board is rather insane in fact

[Neuromancer56]

I see so much doom and gloom about the Bucks here and all over the media and podcasts. I'm honestly so much more hopeful. I just think it's going to take more time for Doc to get the Bucks moving in the right direction. If we still suck in April then I'll start to worry.