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tedbrogen wrote:AJ Green should be the fifth starter. Come at me.

He will be, but likely next season. It's cool to think that we should actually have a better starting 5 next season

emunney wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:

emunney wrote:
Lol no way dude. Football is massively different than it was. It's at least as different as basketball if not more so.

Do not agree at all, 60 years of development obviously it's going to look different but watching basketball in the 50's is totally a different game, do not get that same sense with football at all. I mean it's just how you take in what you're watching and rating historical players is highly personal in the first place, you can disagree but it's just what I think of what I'm watching. Like sure it would be hard to rate Don Hutson but at least it doesn't look like he is playing pickleball to me

Dude, when Hutson played, an incomplete pass in the endzone was an automatic turnover. Defensive pass interference didn't exist until the late 1970s.

Wait? For real? Like if you threw an incomplete pass and it landed in the end zone it was a turnover? So you had to make sure you threw to guys short of the end zone in case it was dropped?

emunney wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:

emunney wrote:
Lol no way dude. Football is massively different than it was. It's at least as different as basketball if not more so.

Do not agree at all, 60 years of development obviously it's going to look different but watching basketball in the 50's is totally a different game, do not get that same sense with football at all. I mean it's just how you take in what you're watching and rating historical players is highly personal in the first place, you can disagree but it's just what I think of what I'm watching. Like sure it would be hard to rate Don Hutson but at least it doesn't look like he is playing pickleball to me

Dude, when Hutson played, an incomplete pass in the endzone was an automatic turnover. Defensive pass interference didn't exist until the late 1970s.

And you had an MVP shooting 37% in 1957 (6'1' PG). You can go back and forth about all the changes in the rules forever but basketball that far back is just another animal to me when I watch it

Ik I'm the one doing it but just pointing out that it's funny how Americans always find a way to relate everything to football

MiltownMadness wrote:

emunney wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:Do not agree at all, 60 years of development obviously it's going to look different but watching basketball in the 50's is totally a different game, do not get that same sense with football at all. I mean it's just how you take in what you're watching and rating historical players is highly personal in the first place, you can disagree but it's just what I think of what I'm watching. Like sure it would be hard to rate Don Hutson but at least it doesn't look like he is playing pickleball to me

Dude, when Hutson played, an incomplete pass in the endzone was an automatic turnover. Defensive pass interference didn't exist until the late 1970s.

And you had an MVP shooting 37% in 1957 (6'1' PG). You can go back and forth about all the changes in the rules forever but basketball that far back is just another animal to me when I watch it

I was going to try and make a joke about the 1957 NFL MVP but I found out it was Jim Brown. He was 6’2 235 and ran a sub10 100 yard dash. He probably easily plays in today’s NFL.

tedbrogen wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:

emunney wrote:
Dude, when Hutson played, an incomplete pass in the endzone was an automatic turnover. Defensive pass interference didn't exist until the late 1970s.

And you had an MVP shooting 37% in 1957 (6'1' PG). You can go back and forth about all the changes in the rules forever but basketball that far back is just another animal to me when I watch it

I was going to try and make a joke about the 1957 NFL MVP but I found out it was Jim Brown. He was 6’2 235 and ran a sub10 100 yard dash. He probably easily plays in today’s NFL.

Yeah about the only NBA equivalent is Wilt but he was a 60's guy.

Fun fact that was also his rookie season. Monster

Reminder that everyone wanting Bobby traded for trash like Grant Williams deserves a shot to the taint.

MiltownMadness wrote:

tedbrogen wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:And you had an MVP shooting 37% in 1957 (6'1' PG). You can go back and forth about all the changes in the rules forever but basketball that far back is just another animal to me when I watch it

I was going to try and make a joke about the 1957 NFL MVP but I found out it was Jim Brown. He was 6’2 235 and ran a sub10 100 yard dash. He probably easily plays in today’s NFL.

Yeah about the only NBA equivalent is Wilt but he was a 60's guy.

Fun fact that was also his rookie season. Monster

The players today are more skilled (although I would certainly argue they're not as smart basketball-wise), but to use a guy's shooting percentage in 1957 as proof of some superior player, is not evidence.

Have you ever considered that the players long ago played better defense than they do today? They certainly played more physical, which lowers shooting percentages. In 1957 you could have two hands on a guy all the time and no whistle was blown. Different game.

jakecronus8 wrote:Reminder that everyone wanting Bobby traded for trash like Grant Williams deserves a shot to the taint.

Reminder that you basically just called for Dame to be executed for having the gall to go watch his former teammates play in Chicago.

Ron Swanson wrote:

jakecronus8 wrote:Reminder that everyone wanting Bobby traded for trash like Grant Williams deserves a shot to the taint.

Reminder that you basically just called for Dame to be executed for having the gall to go watch his former teammates play in Chicago.

aaaand?

BigO wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:

tedbrogen wrote:
I was going to try and make a joke about the 1957 NFL MVP but I found out it was Jim Brown. He was 6’2 235 and ran a sub10 100 yard dash. He probably easily plays in today’s NFL.

Yeah about the only NBA equivalent is Wilt but he was a 60's guy.

Fun fact that was also his rookie season. Monster

The players today are more skilled (although I would certainly argue they're not as smart basketball-wise), but to use a guy's shooting percentage in 1957 as proof of some superior player, is not evidence.

Have you ever considered that the players long ago played better defense than they do today? They certainly played more physical, which lowers shooting percentages. In 1957 you could have two hands on a guy all the time and no whistle was blown. Different game.

Defenses today are so dramatically better. They just don't seem like it because of the massive improvement in skill.

Guarding a team full of players with 3rd grade level dribbling skill is so much easier.

BigO wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:

tedbrogen wrote:
I was going to try and make a joke about the 1957 NFL MVP but I found out it was Jim Brown. He was 6’2 235 and ran a sub10 100 yard dash. He probably easily plays in today’s NFL.

Yeah about the only NBA equivalent is Wilt but he was a 60's guy.

Fun fact that was also his rookie season. Monster

The players today are more skilled (although I would certainly argue they're not as smart basketball-wise), but to use a guy's shooting percentage in 1957 as proof of some superior player, is not evidence.

Have you ever considered that the players long ago played better defense than they do today? They certainly played more physical, which lowers shooting percentages. In 1957 you could have two hands on a guy all the time and no whistle was blown. Different game.

And they had to dribble above the equator of the ball, which made Steph "Carry" moves propelling yourself forward with a scoop dribble something you couldn't do. Still, they had handles, and the mental image some here seem to have of gym class dweebs dribbling with two hands could not be further from the truth.

Reminder that Bobby played like ass for 50 games. We're all happy he looks like himself again. Let's move on.

jakecronus8 wrote:Reminder that everyone wanting Bobby traded for trash like Grant Williams deserves a shot to the taint.

We will see how he does in the playoffs. Remmber the regular season doesn't matter.

Ron Swanson wrote:

jakecronus8 wrote:Reminder that everyone wanting Bobby traded for trash like Grant Williams deserves a shot to the taint.

Reminder that you basically just called for Dame to be executed for having the gall to go watch his former teammates play in Chicago.

Also, I don't know who everyone is. I have been saying there is no way we should trade a young, extremely cheap contract like Bobby unless it is for a consensus upgrade. I will say this the next time he goes 2/14 from the field too. In fact, Bobby supporters were told we are holding on to a negative asset because of emotions.

sidney lanier wrote:

BigO wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:Yeah about the only NBA equivalent is Wilt but he was a 60's guy.

Fun fact that was also his rookie season. Monster

The players today are more skilled (although I would certainly argue they're not as smart basketball-wise), but to use a guy's shooting percentage in 1957 as proof of some superior player, is not evidence.

Have you ever considered that the players long ago played better defense than they do today? They certainly played more physical, which lowers shooting percentages. In 1957 you could have two hands on a guy all the time and no whistle was blown. Different game.

And they had to dribble above the equator of the ball, which made Steph "Carry" moves propelling yourself forward with a scoop dribble something you couldn't do. Still, they had handles, and the mental image some here seem to have of gym class dweebs dribbling with two hands could not be further from the truth.

+100%

The idea that players couldn't dribble long ago just reinforces the idea that if you don't know, don't judge. Better to listen to your elders. Sidney is never wrong.

The other great point you made is that in the "old days" every move that is let go now would be called a carry. It's getting so bad, they should just legalize it.

Ben Taylor did a fascinating summary of how ball-handling/interpretation of traveling and other rules have evolved significantly over time. As someone who started watching the NBA in the '90s, I felt like I learned a ton about the history of the game watching this:

Just for the record on the trade Bobby front. It wasn’t about this year. It was about how he hasn’t been a reliably positive player in the post season for 3 straight years. Reallocating Bobby’s salary/minutes for a guy who could more reliably give you difference making defense rather than relying on whether Bobby happened to make the shot was likely to produce a more consistent role player. One who could hopefully be relied upon to play every game in every series, and not rack up DNP’s against the most physical defenses.

With that stated, he’s been playing the best ball of his career since the all-star break. He’s not just scoring well, but he’s reading the floor better and sprinkling in passes I can’t recall him making before. A lot of the positivity could be unseasonably warm shooting, but he also looks more comfortable than ever. Here’s to hoping he’s found a new tier of performance which has been shown as a possibility after some tough playoff experience.


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tedbrogen wrote:

emunney wrote:

MiltownMadness wrote:Do not agree at all, 60 years of development obviously it's going to look different but watching basketball in the 50's is totally a different game, do not get that same sense with football at all. I mean it's just how you take in what you're watching and rating historical players is highly personal in the first place, you can disagree but it's just what I think of what I'm watching. Like sure it would be hard to rate Don Hutson but at least it doesn't look like he is playing pickleball to me

Dude, when Hutson played, an incomplete pass in the endzone was an automatic turnover. Defensive pass interference didn't exist until the late 1970s.

Wait? For real? Like if you threw an incomplete pass and it landed in the end zone it was a turnover? So you had to make sure you threw to guys short of the end zone in case it was dropped?

Yeah, rule changed pretty early in Hutson's career but still. For almost Hutson's whole career, the QB/TB had to be 5 yds behind the line of scrimmage to throw a forward pass. The guy who led the Packers in passing in Hutson's last couple years retired as the NFL's all-time interceptions *caught* leader (Milwaukee's own Irv Comp). In 1944, he threw 21 INTs, but picked off 6. Also led the NFL in passing yards that year with 1159. Hutson caught 58 passes, nobody else on the team had double digit recs.

German Athens wrote:Just for the record on the trade Bobby front. It wasn’t about this year. It was about how he hasn’t been a reliably positive player in the post season for 3 straight years. Reallocating Bobby’s salary/minutes for a guy who could more reliably give you difference making defense rather than relying on whether Bobby happened to make the shot was likely to produce a more consistent role player. One who could hopefully be relied upon to play every game in every series, and not rack up DNP’s against the most physical defenses.

With that stated, he’s been playing the best ball of his career since the all-star break. He’s not just scoring well, but he’s reading the floor better and sprinkling in passes I can’t recall him making before. A lot of the positivity could be unseasonably warm shooting, but he also looks more comfortable than ever. Here’s to hoping he’s found a new tier of performance which has been shown as a possibility after some tough playoff experience.


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I've agreed not to rehash the Bobby arguments, so I won't list all the ways I disagree with this. I'll just say in the championship game he had 16 points against Phoenix, second only to KM's 17 and Giannis's 50. How soon we forget.