PG Memphis: Still Old, Slow, Disinterested, Pathetic

[paulpressey25]

By the way, as this thread has turned into a Festivus for our board, again keep in mind that we won the title less than three years ago.

At no point in my time at RealGM since 2002 did I view the Bucks winning the title as a realistic possibility. But yes, they did it.

[JayMKE]

Dame wasn't ever that guy either, seems clear

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I never had big expectations from Giannis-Middleton team. To be 100% honest I didn't expect them to win 1 title. They did win that one title with incredible luck (injuries to other best teams) but that will be all, I think. And that is ok. We are regularly top 3 team at East after regular season (1-1-3-3-1-2) and division champion for 6 straight years. And we have 1 ring.

......
After we won that ring, we kept players that we should have traded (Middleton and Lopez) because of loyalty and because of love. And I am ok with that at the end of day. They are our legends and will always love them. But now we are old and without any way to improve.

We had to make Dame trade. That was our final attempt to win at least 1 more ring. And that is good attempt. Now we have chance at least in theory to win it if Dame goes crazy in playoffs. Hitting shoots from halfcourt and things. With Jrue there was no scenario to win it unless other good teams all have injuries the same way they did in 2021. But nobody is that lucky 2 times.

I will admit that I didn't watch Portland enough to know how bad Dame at defense is. He is one of the worst defenders I ever saw. But still, we had to make that trade. It will look better if we have defender at SG, but it is what it is.

Kind of feel the same way. Like Giannis probably has one of the weakest supporting casts of any of the Top 20 players of all time. Only probably Hakeem, Jokic, and maybe Steph (depending on how you feel about Klay if he didn't play with Steph) have won championships without a clear 1st ballot hall of famer helping them. Midds, BroLo and Jrue probably never make an all-star game (excluding BroLos and Jrue's that were a decade earlier) if they weren't playing next to Giannis.

Look at all the help the all-time greats got when getting their rings....
Jordan-Pippen
James - Wade/AD, etc
KAJ - Oscar/Magic
Magic - KAJ
Bill - Different era but great team
Wilt - Greer and West/Baylor
Bird - Multiple
Kobe - Shaq
Shaq - Kobe
Duncan - Robinson/KL
Hakeen - Probably just as weak as Giannis - Had Thorpe, Horry, Maxwell, smith, and young Cassell
KD - LOL
Steph - Could have an argument here though Klay is better than Midds
Oscar - Kareem
Malone - Stockton - but didn't win anything
M Malone - Dr J and Cheeks for his only ring
KG - Needed Pierce/Allen for a ring
West - Only 1 ring with Wilt and Baylor
Dirk - Only 1 ring with kidd
Dr J - Only 1 ring ith Moses and Cheeks.

[ShootingtheJ]

id also like to point out another thing. players are like bows and arrows. there are very few bows and lots of wonderful arrows.

steph is a bow. lebron is a bow. joker is a bow....... going back thru history most every alltime great repeat champions were bows.

giannis is an arrow. he needs a bow.

Massively untrue. He literally scored 50 in the deciding Finals game as a bow.

[Wooderson]

Sadly, Giannis will go down as yet another Wisconsin sports great who should've won more than 1 title.

disagree with this post. i think its marvelous he got his one tho

and only one way out and ive stated that since day one too. youll see.....well wait to long to trade these mfers too and just compound this mess for a decade. you want hope you trade them ALL for the best value you can get starting with whoever has the most. clear the cap and load up with a great haul. if doc wants to coach em fine. if not who cares but the deal is dame and giannis go FIRST... not last.... FIRST.

It's a good thing you weren't in charge in 2021 or this generation of the Bucks would have zero rings!

im first in line to say trade him [Giannis]. dont wait like the pistons did with drummond trying to figure out how to win with a stat line and nothing more.

[ShootingtheJ]

Dame wasn't ever that guy either, seems clear

Nothing is clear. We haven't played in the playoffs with him.

The emotional instability of this board is amazing. When the Bucks have played a contender in the Rivers era, we've easily dispatched Denver, OKC, and Minnesota, while narrowly losing to Boston on the road without Giannis.

Games against nobodies mean nothing.

[FrieAaron]

Yeah, while these two losses have been ugly we've still generally looked good against top teams and still have a good net rating with the starters. The road record is the main concern to me, but I still think it's possible we make a good run in the playoffs.

[Ron Swanson]

bud was the one thing holding all these clowns together. how you needed this season to figure that out i have no words for you

It was clear that Giannis and others in the organization wanted a fresh voice. So Bud got canned. It's all part of human nature, and happens all the time in sports. Heck, if Mike Holmgren could have just gotten along with Ron Wolf, I'm convinced the Packers would have gotten another SB title.

But yes, I've been with you all along on this. Bud was either our Pop or our Jerry Sloan. And when you fire a top 5 coach, the chances you will get someone better are slim to none. The Bucks talent base wasn't like taking over the prime Steph/Klay/Draymond Warriors.

There are a couple strengths that Bud had, that people are now starting to appreciate.

1. He knew the strengths and weaknesses of his players inside and out. And ran a system that got the most out of each guy. We complain about Bud being too rigid. It was a weakness, but was also a strength.

2. Horst. Think Horst is a very good GM. That said, think most don't realize how much influence Bud had in personnel moves. Bud was a big part of buying low on FA's that he felt would fit his system. Whether it was Pat, Brook or bringing in Jrue among others. Horst has a much tougher job right now, both in which vets to bring in, and recruiting them.

Last May, everyone in that organization (and the fanbase) just needed to take a chill pill, and acknowledge that the team wasn't that talented, and their playoff losses the prior two years had a lot more to do with Middleton and Giannis being injured than Bud's coaching.

This. Probably needs to be yelled louder for all the people now weirdly gloating/patting themselves on the back over "roster construction" when even a massive portion of this board pinned the blame for not winning 2-3 titles, ala a Warriors-esque dynasty, squarely on Bud. That's just kind of the inevitable fan impatience mindset though. Sometimes you actually do have to move on from a great coach if he loses the locker room, but was that actually the case here? Or was the sticker shock of "losing to an 8th seed" too jarring for ownership?

[yannisk]

Jokic is fantastic, Murray can go ballistic in any game but Denver has put some very nice role players around them. Gordon and KCP are not stars but they are perfect for their role. Even guys like Bruce Brown and Jeff Green had a role fitting their star players.

Since our core is Giannis/Dame/Khris you cannot have Beasley with Brook/Bobby/Pat be your rotation. Even if Grief, and Doc were geniuses (which they are not) you are not going to have a passable defense with these guys. Combining it with a down year from Dame and Khris being a part time player for most of the year we come to this point

Let's compare our team from some years past. Brook was younger, Middleton was a good defender, Bledsoe/Jrue were excellent defenders, Hill/Brogdon/DDV were all good defenders, even the veterans PJ, Mathews were really good. Giannis was younger and putting more emphasis on defense.

[WeMajor34]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I think this game was a good microcosm of the season. A slow, old, semi disinterested, and unathletic team can't get up for a young, scrappy, and athletic team. We consistently play down to our competition. I can count on one hand the number of awful team blowouts that we saw when Bud was at the helm that have occurred over the course of this season. I just don't think they care, which some have earned given their past success. But in general, I think this team's mindset is shot. It's been an incredibly messy year with a roster made up of misfit toys and a horrendous coaching situation.

With all of that being said, I think we have a solid shot at the title. But my expectations for the playoffs are LOW. I could see us losing a tough first round series and I could see us junking it up all the way to a championship. There's an enormous amount of room for variability with this team and how they perform in these upcoming playoffs. I just hope we're lucky, healthy, tough, and can rely on the big games from our top guys along with some *okay* bench play.

That's a lot to ask of this team but we've seen them do it before. I've just never been more confused by a team during this contender run.

[Milbucks96]

Big Bud fan, it was the time to move on. Wasn’t his fault but after that embarrassment, something had to change….. BUT! That something could’ve just been the Jrue for Dame trade. I wonder if everybody knew (no way anybody could) that was a real possibility, would Bud still be here? I think we all would feel better about our chances if he is.

Firing Bud and ending up with Doc is a fail no matter how you look at it. I don’t even blame Doc for how we’ve looked since he’s took over, but it’s just a downgrade.

Idk how but I still have a tiny sliver of hope we can do something. Doc can be just good enough, Dame and Khris can be just enough for a 2 & 3. Crowder can give us just enough wing defense. Bobby just enough role player, self-creating offense. I believe in Giannis being able to carry the rest.

[BigO]

Well, coming back after 10 hours not only didn't solve bad posts, but they got even worse.

Now the old timers have come back and laid on the Bud revisionism. I feel like I've matured at my ripe old age and will not take the bait. I've given my Bud analysis ad nauseum over the years, so no more from me.

I just like how people wait for bad losses and then march triumphantly to this board with the old "I told you so" mantra. Surely the trading Giannis theme is not far behind.

Here's something to ponder. Sports is based on talent. The teams with the best talent almost always win. When talent is relatively even, then coaching can make a difference.

The team the Bucks had on the floor last night was devoid of much talent. I said this last night, but worth repeating. THEY HAD ONE GUY ON THE FLOOR WHO COULD DRIVE TO THE BASKET. THEY HAD ONE OF THE SLOWEST DEFENSIVE SQUADS IMAGINABLE. THAT'S NOT ON THE COACH.

When the Bucks are healthy, they have a talented roster. Talented enough to compete for a title. Playing young guys is worthy of a discussion at some point, but right now the Bucks have to have a healthy roster. The roster the last two nights was a bottom three roster.

[jute2003]

I'm not sure I buy injuries as being the reason they don't have more rings. I think they very likely could have lost regardless.

Khris was a good enough Robin exactly one year and thankfully it coincided with Giannis still busting his ass on defense. They got their championship.

Dame of years past was certainly good enough to be a Robin with current Giannis. Maybe it's still in there somewhere because we see flashes sometimes. Personal ****, team dynamics, he and 34 not being able to consistently figure their **** out, etc. has kept it from working so far.

They wanted to get rid of the coach but still insist on doing the things that coach taught them to win. The team in general is basketball stupid, old, and annoyingly arrogant. Giannis is a force of nature but I think he's more flawed as a superstar than we homers like to admit.

[CharityStripe34]

Nothing like the playoffs to force the team to bring consistency. All will be revealed in a few weeks. If they look inconsistent, sluggish, slow, etc. in the first round and struggle then it was never meant to be. If they bring the juice, play with pace on both ends and look sharper than usual then perhaps the "switch" is real.

[Thunder Muscle]

By the way, as this thread has turned into a Festivus for our board, again keep in mind that we won the title less than three years ago.

At no point in my time at RealGM since 2002 did I view the Bucks winning the title as a realistic possibility. But yes, they did it.

I’m at peace that I saw 1 championship in my lifetime and as I walked out the door after Game 4 in the 2013 playoffs vs Heat I never thought I’d sniff a championship here. I was more hoping the team would just stay in town.

With that said, there were some missed opportunities for more and I’m starting to think the window has closed. I haven’t been this disinterested going into a playoff probably since that Heat series. Spoiled I know, but I just can’t see this team making a legit run. Honestly I think they are a prine candidate to get bounced Round 1. Magic will be a hungry young upstart matchup, Pacers have already proven to know how to beat us, Heat are always tough, and Philly has Embiid back now. Guessing we’ll get 1 of those 4. As the subject says we just seem old, slow, half assed into it, and struggle to think some magic switch will be flipped in the playoffs.

[BUCKnation]

Was curious so I was perusing through the last several champions and how they performed post-ASB, and I guess the silver lining is that there really isn't any correlation here.

2023 Denver: 12-11 (+0.4 net-rating)
2022 Warriors: 11-12 (+2.0 net-rating)
2021 Bucks: 14-9 (just did the last 23-games due to Covid delays)
2019 Raptors: 15-8 (+7.2 net-rating)
2018 Warriors: 14-10 (+0.9 net-rating)

Last season we finished with the best post-ASB record (17-7, +4.0 net-rating) and it ultimately didn't matter once Giannis got hurt. This'll probably be the biggest test of the "switch-flipping" theory we've seen in this era of Bucks basketball though. Who knows.

FYI, Bucks are currently 12-8 with a +3.7 net-rating post-ASB.

That end of season run for Denver last year was such a sleep walk, Embiid was able to clear Jokic for the MVP, which didn't look possible after he ducked them. Bucks should be looking better, but also haven't had any real pressure to do so with the competing teams for the 2 seed looking awful.

[German Athens]

I think Bud was perhaps the best at maximizing role players in the league, and was a big part of our regular season success. I think Doc rides his stars more and isn’t nearly as good at maximizing all the talent on the roster.

With that said, I’m not sure that will matter as much come the playoffs. I think we’ve seen some very non-Bud things against contenders since doc took over that are quite encouraging.

We’ve had specific game plans for Dallas, denver, and OKC that were departures from our base schemes that had pretty great results.

Under Bud, we were the elite drop defense team, but we often looked like children when we went to a zone, didn’t disguise our doubles well, and at times struggled with switches. Under doc, we’ve seen much better showings with multiple schemes.

My worry with doc is that we’ve swung too far into the two-man game offense, and that this will further marginalize the role players on the team, but we also needed to get better at the two-man game, so I don’t know what the right balance is there.

[DingleJerry]

Dame wasn't ever that guy either, seems clear

Nothing is clear. We haven't played in the playoffs with him.

The emotional instability of this board is amazing. When the Bucks have played a contender in the Rivers era, we've easily dispatched Denver, OKC, and Minnesota, while narrowly losing to Boston on the road without Giannis.

Games against nobodies mean nothing.

Yea and the ever part is off too. Must not have watched Dame much as he won with blah rosters year after year. We got him at age 33ish and put him in a crap situation with possibly the worst coach in nba history. And he hasn't helped himself either with seemingly not having a great attitude, but if you've ever worked in a bad culture/boss work you get how that happens. He's certainly not what he was at age 29 or whatever, but his prime was definitely capable of being the #2 on a title team especially if the 1 was a big guy like Giannis to make it a good pairing. I'd guess this year and for 1-2 more years he's still capable of that if the other pieces fall into place around them 2. This has been a mess due to the coach fiasco, him acclimating, teams too old/slow, and now since the new coach they can never get everyone on the floor at the same time to get any cohesion going. All things considering, to be the #2 fave in the east is best they could hope for at this point.

And yea ideal world would've been to keep Bud if you knew this trade was happening, the trade would've been plenty of 'shake up'.

[BUCKnation]

I'm 100% giving Dame another season and retooling around those 2, unless he comes out and straight up doesn't want to be here.

We have some assets, the first and that Portland pick will be live around the draft time. I think Brook is gone, Khris, I'm less sure of, Bobby and Pat, who knows.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

id also like to point out another thing. players are like bows and arrows. there are very few bows and lots of wonderful arrows.

steph is a bow. lebron is a bow. joker is a bow....... going back thru history most every alltime great repeat champions were bows.

giannis is an arrow. he needs a bow.

Massively untrue. He literally scored 50 in the deciding Finals game as a bow.

you just repeated the most common misunderstanding of the board.....and there are definitely outliers thats why i said repeat champions.

but giannis is in fact an arrow. not a bow.

undeniably giannis doesnt make teams good all on his own and he doesnt make players around him better. bud did that in his time here to the best degree that he could but the one season aside we have been a playoff disappointment, never really all tht close, and a huge disappointment against our regular season success. and now that giannis is calling the shots he needs a player who can lead him because coaches wont be able to do that anymore. he is his own coach now and the results reflect that

its hard even to hold dame accountable with what i see. stotts walked away from the mess he saw and that will never be lost on me as it relates to dame. dame was forced here to play for giannis coach and there was cancer here when he arrived. its complicated by things we may never even fully understand.

so make no mistake as pp25 said giannis is a shaq. an undeniable instrument of war.... but a mess if hes calling the shots and taking on the leadership role of a championship contender