Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[DingleJerry]

I will say that I don't even think I've fully processed how brutal it is legacy wise for Giannis and the organization that his age 28 and 29 seasons were essentially wasted due to untimely playoff injuries. Two years smack in the middle of his prime that are never coming back.

Last season was more than injuries. That was a failure of coaching, preparation and each individual that played. We got waxed and embarrassed. Honestly, I'm not even sure if health this season guarantees we get by the Pacers..

Agree last season I'm not sure about but healthy Giannis changes everything about how we play and how we're defended.

This season I am like 100% sure we beat the Pacers in 5 or 6. That's not really even a question to me. People are already forgetting what kind of a monster healthy playoff Giannis is.

Yea primary issue for the year was the trainwreck coaching firing and hire combined with the long time vets attitudes seem to be lacking after years of "regular season doesn't matter" not giving a F seeping into the culture. Combine that with the age/athleticism/injury issues and then it was clear winning it all seemed very unlikely. But with normal health you probably make at least 2nd round and likely the ECF so the year would've been ok/fine rather than another terrible 1st rd exit. And of course with the top end talent they have with some breaks you could've caught lightning in a bottle like 2021.

But you can't just put blinders on to all the issues because of the injuries, have to do all you can to address it so the next two years left in this Dame related window have as good a chance as possible. And before you know it Giannis is gonna be like 33 years old.

[ShootingtheJ]

Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

Khris has never been an overly athletic player. Bucks fans have been complaining about him being a slow footed plodder for years.

He plays an old school game and relies on his high BBIQ and plethora of moves to keep defenders guessing on offense. Defensively, he uses positioning, his length and good anticipation to keep quick/more athletic players in front of him. Ultimately, his game is perfect for an aging player as it’s not reliant on his agility.

I agree with what you said on offense. He has a quick, shifty fake and can get his shot off.

Where I disagree with you, is on defense. KM doesn't do very much of the things on defense that you just said he did. What actually happened is that Bud developed a whole defense around hiding KM, including keeping Brook dropped right behind him on drives and Jrue right next to him for quick help and switches. Once we changed coaches, KM/Beas/Dame all had around equal responsibilities and their previous teams likely had to always try to hide all 3.. suddenly they were together on the perimeter and it was embarassing. Most likely is that we have to pick between Dame and KM and have defenders all around the one we pick to succeed. We were 18 - 9 without KM and 1-8 without Dame so Dame is more valuable. Give Dame defenders around him and we'll be giving Indy fits in no time.

The Bucks defense in the series was really good when Beasley was off the floor, and that's with Giannis out and Turner cooking Brook. A quality defense includes Khris, who is still a worthwhile defender analytically.

[Prez]

We took them to 6 games and could’ve pushed it to 7 if a couple bounces went our way in game 3, all without Giannis the whole series and Dame for half of it. Zero doubt in my mind that we smoke them with a healthy 34/0/22 the whole series. I honestly think a sweep would’ve been in play.

[Turk Nowitzki]

We took them to 6 games and could’ve pushed it to 7 if a couple bounces went our way in game 3, all without Giannis the whole series and Dame for half of it. Zero doubt in my mind that we smoke them with a healthy 34/0/22 the whole series. I honestly think a sweep would’ve been in play.

Exactly, I'm not going to spend more time arguing about it with people but it's amazing to me that people can't see this. Like, how little credit do you have to give Giannis to just shrug and say "eh the rest of the team sucked without him so I don't see that he would've made much of a difference". It's been so long that people are forgetting about playoff Giannis.

[Ron Swanson]

I'm not even pretending to have a serious conversation with anyone who honestly thinks we don't annihilate the Pacers with a healthy Giannis, let alone a healthy Dame on top of it. But that certainly does illustrate why there's a vocal minority here that's heavily advocating that we need to "blow it up". As usual, somewhere in the middle (roster tweaks around the Big-3, getting younger on the margins, patience with a new roster) is the most logical option.

[Prez]

We took them to 6 games and could’ve pushed it to 7 if a couple bounces went our way in game 3, all without Giannis the whole series and Dame for half of it. Zero doubt in my mind that we smoke them with a healthy 34/0/22 the whole series. I honestly think a sweep would’ve been in play.

Exactly, I'm not going to spend more time arguing about it with people but it's amazing to me that people can't see this. Like, how little credit do you have to give Giannis to just shrug and say "eh the rest of the team sucked without him so I don't see that he would've made much of a difference". It's been so long that people are forgetting about playoff Giannis.

You would think after he utterly ruined the Suns in the finals and damn near single handedly beat Boston the next year without Khris that people would have faith in him winning us a series against the friggin Pacers, one that we had our chances in *without him* (and Dame for like half of it) lol.

It seems like a lot of fans need to take a step back and ask themselves how every other playoff team would do if their best player missed the whole first round and their 2nd best player missed half of it.

Like Denver w/ Jokic out entirely and Murray only playing 2 healthy games. Or Dallas with Luka/Kyrie in that spot. Or Minnesota with Ant/Gobert. List goes on.

They would all look like complete dog **** lol. And they’d probably get swept or lose in 5.

The fact that we took it to 6 games and had a chance to get it to 7 down a back to back MVP the whole series and another top 75 guy only being fully healthy for the first 2 games, is frankly pretty impressive.

[slos]

Why not go for that Marquette guy who will soon become available for trade?

Brook + Bobby + Pat + #23 + 2031 FRP for Butler

I don’t care how old they are. Dame/Butler/Midds/Giannis core should be able to win a championship even if one gets injured in the playoffs.

Dame and Jimmy did try to play together in Miami. Horst should be already on the phone with Lillard to recruit Butler.

[TroyD92]

Why not go for that Marquette guy who will soon become available for trade?

Brook + Bobby + Pat + #23 + 2031 FRP for Butler

I don’t care how old they are. Dame/Butler/Midds/Giannis core should be able to win a championship even if one gets injured in the playoffs.

Dame and Jimmy did try to play together in Miami. Horst should be already on the phone with Lillard to recruit Butler.

Miami gets a significantly better package than that. It’s a nonstarter. Miami is also a well run organization so they wouldn’t make a mindless move like that

[fansinceforever]

Not sure where you guys get this arrogance from. This team had immence issues all year that had nothing to do with injury.

So, we easily wipe them off the floor? Ok, based on what? I'm not saying we don't win. I don't think it's a guarantee. We definitely don't sweep them.

Stop comparing us with teams like Denver and Minnesota. Those two teams can rely on stability in multiple areas that we cannot. Defense, coaching, health, general organization, effort, etc, etc.

[jschligs]

Not sure where you guys get this arrogance from. This team had immence issues all year that had nothing to do with injury.

So, we easily wipe them off the floor? Ok, based on what? I'm not saying we don't win. I don't think it's a guarantee. We definitely don't sweep them.

Stop comparing us with teams like Denver and Minnesota. Those two teams can rely on stability in multiple areas that we cannot. Defense, coaching, health, general organization, effort, etc, etc.

Based on the fact that playoff ball is different. And we took them to 6 without 2 time MVP, DPOY, and top 25 greatest players ever named Giannis. Its become incredibly apparent that the regular season really doesn't matter much.

[fansinceforever]

Not sure where you guys get this arrogance from. This team had immence issues all year that had nothing to do with injury.

So, we easily wipe them off the floor? Ok, based on what? I'm not saying we don't win. I don't think it's a guarantee. We definitely don't sweep them.

Stop comparing us with teams like Denver and Minnesota. Those two teams can rely on stability in multiple areas that we cannot. Defense, coaching, health, general organization, effort, etc, etc.

Based on the fact that playoff ball is different. And we took them to 6 without 2 time MVP, DPOY, and top 25 greatest players ever named Giannis. Its become incredibly apparent that the regular season really doesn't matter much.

The team struggled all year despite Giannis being other worldly. That's why I continue to beat the "this roster needs to be overhauled" drums. You will never me say anything negative about Giannis.

Yes, you're correct. Playoff ball is different but this year's playoffs is currently being dominated by the teams that built strong principles and played good basketball all year long.

[Prez]

Not sure where you guys get this arrogance from. This team had immence issues all year that had nothing to do with injury.

So, we easily wipe them off the floor? Ok, based on what? I'm not saying we don't win. I don't think it's a guarantee. We definitely don't sweep them.

Stop comparing us with teams like Denver and Minnesota. Those two teams can rely on stability in multiple areas that we cannot. Defense, coaching, health, general organization, effort, etc, etc.

Idk, maybe the fact that we literally saw this team without Giannis the entire series and Dame only playing 2 fully healthy games take the Pacers to 6, with a chance to get it to 7? It isn’t arrogance to suggest that adding one of the greatest players of all time in his prime to a series that was already competitive, and another top 75 guy all time to the games he missed or was hobbled in, substantially swings it in our favor. It just takes one not comically undervaluing the impact of a monster like Giannis and to a lesser extent Dame.

Also you completely missed the point of the Denver/Minnesota mentions. It wasn’t to say our healthy team is every bit as good as Denver or Minnesota. It’s to illustrate the importance of your best and second best players. Tell me, where was Denver’s “stability” when in back to back postseasons WITH Jokic they lost in 5 games in the first round and got swept in the second round, because they were missing Murray/MPJ? A duo that isn’t in the same stratosphere as Giannis/Dame. But they get those guys back the next year and win the title lol. And now we’re supposed to pretend Giannis/Dame wouldn’t dramatically sway a playoff series?

[Ron Swanson]

Lord almighty, we lost a Top-20 basketball player ever in his prime, not Julius Randle. The Minnesota example as a team that we can't possibly compare ourselves to is kinda funny as well. You mean like, the team that absolutely sucked last year and all they did was do some roster margins tweaking while being patient with integrating their "old guys" (Conley, Gobert)? You're making the point to not blow the team up lol.

[ShootingtheJ]

Not sure where you guys get this arrogance from. This team had immence issues all year that had nothing to do with injury.

So, we easily wipe them off the floor? Ok, based on what? I'm not saying we don't win. I don't think it's a guarantee. We definitely don't sweep them.

Stop comparing us with teams like Denver and Minnesota. Those two teams can rely on stability in multiple areas that we cannot. Defense, coaching, health, general organization, effort, etc, etc.

Based on the fact that playoff ball is different. And we took them to 6 without 2 time MVP, DPOY, and top 25 greatest players ever named Giannis. Its become incredibly apparent that the regular season really doesn't matter much.

The team struggled all year despite Giannis being other worldly. That's why I continue to beat the "this roster needs to be overhauled" drums. You will never me say anything negative about Giannis.

Yes, you're correct. Playoff ball is different but this year's playoffs is currently being dominated by the teams that built strong principles and played good basketball all year long.

Did you watch the games where we easily handled your perfect teams, Denver and Minnesota?

[Matches Malone]

You mean like, the team that absolutely sucked last year and all they did was do some roster margins tweaking while being patient with integrating their "old guys" (Conley, Gobert)? You're making the point to not blow the team up lol.

Minnesota and even Dallas can be thrown in that category of both kind of stunk it up after making pretty big changes to their rosters, only for them to both get back on track the following year with a full training camp and like you said, all the margin tweaking that helped elevate their core.

[emunney]

McDaniels missed the playoffs last year, that's really their biggest tweak, him replacing Prince.

[fansinceforever]

They're not perfect but they have consistency when it comes to things like defense and effort that we don't have. That matters.

No, I'm not making the point to not blow it up. Again, because the teams mentioned have little in common with us. The effort, attention to detail and talent level outside of the top 2 (top 1?) are not comparable.

Who cares how their season ended last year? We're ignoring the way we played this year...

[milweskee]

Being able to beat or possibly sweep Indiana with a fully healthy squad is now the pinnacle of success.

Disregard the fact there was no way we were winning any subsequent round.

This team is a bunch of parts that don't fit together. It defies logic that they don't. But it hasn't worked all year. Disregard statistics, this team was flat out hard to watch all year. Ugly ugly dumb basketball that was possibly better with Griffin.

It's basically a team that hinged it's hopes on Playoff Giannis but GM Giannis ended up their worst enemy.

But by all means, catapult yourself into the "big 3" narrative if it helps take the sting out of a long offseason.

[-Jragon-]

With Dame and Giannis on the team, it gives other guys the freedom to relax and be a role player. There are a lot of ways guys can contribute and it doesn't have to be the same way every night. Take Pat Bev, for instance. He gave you something different and it often led to wins. Sometimes it's scoring sometimes D, big hustle rebounds, passing, etc. Because of that, any trade that we keep Giannis and Dame, it's not blowing up the team. The new guys we get will have to make an impact but we can still win without needing them to specifically be 1v1 scorers. If we trade any of Mids, Brook or Bobby - those are big shoes to fill but it's not a blowup.

[Prez]

They're not perfect but they have consistency when it comes to things like defense and effort that we don't have. That matters.

No, I'm not making the point to not blow it up. Again, because the teams mentioned have little in common with us. The effort, attention to detail and talent level outside of the top 2 (top 1?) are not comparable.

You're still missing the point. The point is the Nuggets got swept in the 2nd round and crushed in 5 in the first round in back to back postseasons when they missed Murray/MPJ, even with Jokic healthy and available. Clearly any stability, attention to detail, effort, whatever else you think they have that we don't, wasn't enough to prevent them from getting stomped without their 2nd and 4th best players. And then when they got those two back, they went from first round exit to champions. All that to illustrate the larger point that having or missing your very best players is a MASSIVE swing factor in playoff success, one that you are dramatically undervaluing here.

Who cares how their season ended last year? We're ignoring the way we played this year...

If anyone's ignoring how we played, it's you ignoring how the team played in the actual playoff series in discussion. The series literally happened, we saw it play out. We saw the Bucks fight and claw their way into making that series competitive despite missing one of the greatest players ever and another top 75 all time guy missing half of it.

Suggesting that adding a healthy Giannis for every game and a fully healthy Dame for games 3-6 might not be enough to swing an already competitive 6-game series is just ludicrous.