PG Indy Game 6 - Loss

[FrieAaron]

Agree we need to retool around the big three - we looked too old and slow often this year - but also think you can't take a ton from the last two postseasons. Ever since we started contending we have always been basically a .500 team without Giannis. 36-38 going back to 2019. His health is by far the most important thing going forward, which is going to make next season even tougher to care about. I'd rather be in the play-in with a healthy Giannis than get a top 3 seed again and then lose him.

[-Jragon-]

Keeping Dame and KM defending wings like that at the same time will end the same way every year.

Question by question:
1. Is KM better than Dame? No
2. Can KM get faster and more mobile through extreme offseason work? Haven't seen it
3. Can Khris bulk up in the weight room and cover 4s predominantly next year when GA plays small 5? Seems more likely than #2 but still lacks length at 4.
4. Would KM be willing to come off the bench and reduce his minutes for maximum effectiveness and to reduce his defensive responsibilities? Doubt it.
5. With all of KM's new speed will he play off ball with back cuts, set screens, etc? Maybe, actually I thought he had some nice screen and cuts in game 6 playing off Dame.

Conclusion: sit down with Giannis and KM and have him commit to an offseason working out and getting his defense back. If he won't then trade him while value is high because along with defending problems you still ge the sloppy game killing turnovers and you can't win consistently like that.

[paulpressey25]

It's 1 year.

Saying it didn't work is silly. It didn't work this year.

I'm not in favor of fire sale trading Dame. But if there is a good offer out there, think you need to explore it.

I recall when the deal went down, Bill Simmons did a five minute sermon on his pod about Dame being over-rated, and his defense being a major problem. I didn't want to acknowledge any of it at the time.

But over the past month, I've gone over to the dark side on this one. And the example that keeps sticking in my mind was how hard a job it was for Mike Dunleavy, Chris Ford (RIP) and then George Karl to hide Big Dog on defense. And I also remember the ppgmz debates we'd have on the old ESPN boards back in the day.

Glenn would put up 30 and look great doing it. But then we'd lose because some journeyman SF like Morris Peterson would match or exceed his 30 that night.

Our point of attack defense was so horrific, I'm not sure adding a premier guard defender next to Dame is going to do it. Others mileage may vary.

[DanoMac]

Kinda funny and ironic that the perfect guy next to Dame might be Jrue. Either hope AJJ makes a leap or go and get Caruso.

[rilamann]

It's insanity that there are people who collect an NBA paycheck who thought it would be a good idea to start Beasley in the back court with Dame.

I am 100% confident that there are random die-hard basketball fans who could do a better job than a lot of people actually collecting big NBA paychecks.

This season was full of disasters and incompetence but that is one that sticks out.

[Ron Swanson]

I find it kinda hard to keep this "Dame's horrid defense cancels out his offense" narrative going when Haliburton put up a whopping 16/9/5 stat-line on 54% TS and was largely kept in check all series. If we wanna bitch about Dame not being "switchable" and getting swallowed up trying to defend Siakam/Turner in the post, well, yeah no ****. Need to find a way to scheme around that.

[DanoMac]

It's insanity that there are people who collect an NBA paycheck who thought it would be a good idea to start Beasley in the back court with Dame.

Lillard was traded here on September 27th. The roster was already in place and was constructed with the mindset that Jrue and Grayson would be here. Beasley next to Jrue made a lot more sense. Unfortunately there was nothing we could do at that point besides ride it out. Should be a fun offseason.

[jimmybones]

They've managed Giannis fine really until pushing him through injuries this season. What really needs to be done is tweaking his role and making him more of a big man. He wont be happy with that I assume.

Honestly think our best path forward is Giannis moving full time to center and getting a versatile and athletic PF. We instantly become way more athletic and that hypothetical PF is easier to find than a center with the same attributes. The it's too much banging down low complaint is overblown. Find a real life big man back up big that plays 20-25 mins and helps Giannis with some of the dirty work.

[paulpressey25]

I find it kinda hard to keep this "Dame's horrid defense cancels out his offense" narrative going when Haliburton put up a whopping 16/9/5 stat-line on 54% TS and was largely kept in check all series. If we wanna bitch about Dame not being "switchable" and getting swallowed up trying to defend Siakam/Turner in the post, well, yeah no ****. Need to find a way to scheme around that.

Andrew Nembhard and TJ McConnell took turns sticking a knife in us.

[rilamann]

It's 1 year.

Saying it didn't work is silly. It didn't work this year.

I'm not in favor of fire sale trading Dame. But if there is a good offer out there, think you need to explore it.

I recall when the deal went down, Bill Simmons did a five minute sermon on his pod about Dame being over-rated, and his defense being a major problem. I didn't want to acknowledge any of it at the time.

But over the past month, I've gone over to the dark side on this one. And the example that keeps sticking in my mind was how hard a job it was for Mike Dunleavy, Chris Ford (RIP) and then George Karl to hide Big Dog on defense. And I also remember the ppgmz debates we'd have on the old ESPN boards back in the day.

Glenn would put up 30 and look great doing it. But then we'd lose because some journeyman SF like Morris Peterson would match or exceed his 30 that night.

Our point of attack defense was so horrific, I'm not sure adding a premier guard defender next to Dame is going to do it. Others mileage may vary.

Tracey Murray is a name that comes to mind when I think of Big Dog. He used to always come off the bench and light up Big Dog.

There are a bunch of random, forgotten NBA players from 90's that pop into my head when I think of Big Dog. I am sure this happens to all of us who have been Bucks fans since the 90's and beyond...lol.

True story. Back in like 2000 or maybe 2001, my Aunt got summoned for jury duty here in Milwaukee and of all cases, she ended up on Big Dog's case. It was the court case from that time Big Dog got robbed in the parking lot of a night club if I remember correct. Anyway, after the case my Aunt told me that judge was making funny/sarcastic remarks to Big Dog in court about his lack of defense on the court. The judge was just having some light hearted fun from what my Aunt told me, but I thought it was pretty hilarious. Poor Glenn, even the judges in Milwaukee were giving him ****.....lol.

[jimmybones]

2) The problem with Giannis is not the number of minutes he plays, but the type of game he plays. He needs to play in the post a ton more. He's already good at it and needs to develop it more for the second half of his career. This is a huge point that I hope Horst understands, but probably doesn't.

He needs to save his attack the basket game for the playoffs or just in crucial times of a regular season game.

Agreed. It seems to me like he attacks when he feels the urge to attack. The next stage in his evolution is attacking when there is a path to the rim or there is a mismatch and not just when he feels determined to get to the rim.

[buckboy]

It's 1 year.

Saying it didn't work is silly. It didn't work this year.

I'm not in favor of fire sale trading Dame. But if there is a good offer out there, think you need to explore it.

I recall when the deal went down, Bill Simmons did a five minute sermon on his pod about Dame being over-rated, and his defense being a major problem. I didn't want to acknowledge any of it at the time.

But over the past month, I've gone over to the dark side on this one. And the example that keeps sticking in my mind was how hard a job it was for Mike Dunleavy, Chris Ford (RIP) and then George Karl to hide Big Dog on defense. And I also remember the ppgmz debates we'd have on the old ESPN boards back in the day.

Glenn would put up 30 and look great doing it. But then we'd lose because some journeyman SF like Morris Peterson would match or exceed his 30 that night.

Our point of attack defense was so horrific, I'm not sure adding a premier guard defender next to Dame is going to do it. Others mileage may vary.

My only point is that we don't know if it worked yet. It didn't work this year. That doesn't mean it won't work next year. With the coaching fiasco, it was almost impossible for it to work this year.

[jimmybones]

It feels like this season was defined by panic. Firing Bud, then picking a guy they knew wasn't right to try to appease Giannis. Ownership bringing in Doc mid-season instead of Atkinson. Giannis trying to play on a bad calf/achilles. And then Doc tightened up like he always does, and playing bum vets over young guys that actually showed something like he always does.

No stability, no confidence, no composure.

I think (based on what I've heard):

Giannis wanted Bud out even before the Heat series, wanted to, "run the show." Other players had also tuned out Bud.

Ownership wanted Bud gone, too. Dating back to the Nets series. Horst was forced into a tough spot.

Horst wanted Atkinson, ownership wanted Nurse, Giannis wanted a former NBA player. Think Monty was the first choice, but too expensive. Next best was satisfying Giannis and ownership by taking Nurse's right hand man, who had a long NBA career, and interviewed well with Giannis.

Bone thrown to Horst by hiring on Stotts as the likely in-season successor, as he was behind the scenes working to get Dame.

They were ready to fire Griff by Christmas, after the Stotts fiasco and the team being disorganized and morale low. Had to wait for Giannis to be on board.

Not sure Horst's opinion on Doc, but I think he was in lock-step with ownership in thinking he was the best available option at the time. Don't think Atkinson was an option mid-season.

Here we are. Hopefully this year humbled Giannis and ownership to not overstep basketball people making basketball decisions.

Really wish we would have let our GM do his **** job

Atkinson would have been a dream compared to Griffin -> Doc

[-Jragon-]

Kinda funny and ironic that the perfect guy next to Dame might be Jrue. Either hope AJJ makes a leap or go and get Caruso.

It's not ironic. Knowing Dame was a lightish defender I think sending KM was the obvious move and keep a defender with Dame.. BUT KM just extended and wasn't even eligible as an option to keep Jrue instead.

[Ron Swanson]

I find it kinda hard to keep this "Dame's horrid defense cancels out his offense" narrative going when Haliburton put up a whopping 16/9/5 stat-line on 54% TS and was largely kept in check all series. If we wanna bitch about Dame not being "switchable" and getting swallowed up trying to defend Siakam/Turner in the post, well, yeah no ****. Need to find a way to scheme around that.

Andrew Nembhard and TJ McConnell took turns sticking a knife in us.

10 points on 5/13 FGA
6 points on 2/6 FGA
7 points on 3/6 FGA
8 points on 4/11 FGA
6 points on 3/10 FGA

^^That's McConnell's game log this series (all except Game 2 with a negative +/-) before his 20-point, 9-assist, 4-steal explosion last night. I'm sure I don't have to state the obvious difference between Dame in Games 1-3 and Game 6....

[-Jragon-]

2) The problem with Giannis is not the number of minutes he plays, but the type of game he plays. He needs to play in the post a ton more. He's already good at it and needs to develop it more for the second half of his career. This is a huge point that I hope Horst understands, but probably doesn't.

He needs to save his attack the basket game for the playoffs or just in crucial times of a regular season game.

Agreed. It seems to me like he attacks when he feels the urge to attack. The next stage in his evolution is attacking when there is a path to the rim or there is a mismatch and not just when he feels determined to get to the rim.

Just don't rely on that recklessness... period. Keep working on footwork. Find Gortat and learn that little roll, find Hakeem again and work that footwork to death. With his size, length, touch and power he shouldn't have to rely on reckless gimmicky sh#t. Get him the ball in the paint, use your pivots, pump fakes and backboard shots all day long

[Prez]

Dame was an assassin in games 1 & 2 and IMO showed he has a playoff switch that he can flip. I'm not gonna hold it against him that he got hurt in game 3 and was obviously not right physically in game 6. Again this series has me feeling better about Dame/Khris as the supporting 2/3 next to Giannis, not worse. It's the rest of these dudes (outside of AJ/Dre whose development needs to be prioritized next season because there's definitely something there) that need to go.

[-Jragon-]

I find it kinda hard to keep this "Dame's horrid defense cancels out his offense" narrative going when Haliburton put up a whopping 16/9/5 stat-line on 54% TS and was largely kept in check all series. If we wanna bitch about Dame not being "switchable" and getting swallowed up trying to defend Siakam/Turner in the post, well, yeah no ****. Need to find a way to scheme around that.

Dame played soft on D but the difference is that he has quick feet still and was willing to at least jump at a shooter. Playoff Dame isn't a difference maker on D but he's not much of a liability either.

[paulpressey25]

I find it kinda hard to keep this "Dame's horrid defense cancels out his offense" narrative going when Haliburton put up a whopping 16/9/5 stat-line on 54% TS and was largely kept in check all series. If we wanna bitch about Dame not being "switchable" and getting swallowed up trying to defend Siakam/Turner in the post, well, yeah no ****. Need to find a way to scheme around that.

Andrew Nembhard and TJ McConnell took turns sticking a knife in us.

10 points on 5/13 FGA
6 points on 2/6 FGA
7 points on 3/6 FGA
8 points on 4/11 FGA
6 points on 3/10 FGA

^^That's McConnell's game log this series (all except Game 2 with a negative +/-) before his 20-point, 9-assist, 4-steal explosion last night. I'm sure I don't have to state the obvious difference between Dame in Games 1-3 and Game 6....

Now do Nembhard. And compare his totals this series to the regular season.

You've got to deal with screens and switches on all these guys at the point of attack. If you want to say it was all the fault of the guy playing next to Dame, that's fine. But I think it doesn't match with the fact he sucked on defense much of the year, and quite a bit in Portland as well. We're going to have to expend real assets to find someone to make up for that. It's not a good position to be in for a coach.

[randy84]

Its easy to see who upp'ed their game in the playoffs compared to the regular season and who didn't. I would get rid of the guys who didn't.