Post Game Bucks/Heat

[midranger]

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I do understand your point, but haven't you basically posted the same thing about Redd numerous times?

Yes, and I want Redd gone.

[El Duderino]

I do understand your point, but haven't you basically posted the same thing about Redd numerous times?

I've seen Crawford do exactly what Redd has done numerous times....get hot and shoot the Knicks to victory or get cold and shoot them out....

He's a year younger than Redd and basically has averaged about 4.5 assists per game for the last five seasons....

And Jamal is half the price and we get David Lee and Balkman. Heck, I'd consider leaving Balkman out of the deal if that would get Isiah to do this one. Remember, there aren't many teams that can afford to take on Redd's contract and actually might consider it....the Knicks are a possibility.

If we do end up trading Redd, wouldn't the point be to change the direction and mentality of the team, not to keep it basically the same except adding a no defense playing chucker that unlike Redd, gets his point without any efficiency?

For all of Redd's faults, he at least shoots a decent percentage and gets to the line a lot, Crawford jacks up tons of shots at an ugly 40% clip. If or when we part ways with Redd, a guy like Crawford would be right near the top of the list of guys being the last kind of player i'd want to replace Redd with. The fact that Crawford makes less cash would be nearly irrelevant to me and even if we'd get Lee on top of it.

We'd still have the exact same backcourt problems that you say over and over you want changed, except more shots would be missed from that backcourt because Crawford is a bricklayer.

It's trade proposals like this and others i see involving Redd that to me are people desperately willing to make almost any trade just to make one regardless if it really makes any sense for the Bucks going forward.

Players like Crawford should be viewed as kryptonite for any Bucks fans who want to see the mentality of the Bucks changed, not guys to be traded for.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

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No idea...I had the Heat broadcast on LP so I missed all of that. Supposedly Redd was getting over something last week too. I was tempted to say something about how it'd be interesting to see the Bucks play without Redd for a game in case he has a slight injury, but nah, that's just foolish. We don't have nearly the depth to mess around. If Simmons, Bell, Mason and Villanueva were all healthy and playing well I might be more curious.

Tonight's game kind of made me think back to that Dallas game in 05-06 that Redd missed.
http://www.nba.com/games/20051129/DALMIL/boxscore.html

[midranger]

I thought of that game too GAD.

[REDDzone]

I thought of that game too GAD.

Ditto.

Not to mention I would never want Crawford on this team, perfect example of a guy who scores a lot of points, but is one dimensional, plays no defense, and scores at an extremely inefficient rate? What does he shoot from the field? Don't care enough to look for this year but I know in the past it has been horrible to say the least.

[Stopshere2]

Obviously a win is good for some of you guys, still posting after 2am

I haven't seen a mention of it anywhere else but Redd did an interview with Ted Davis prior to the game. He didn't mention any team meeting, just read from the pro sports player's manual which basically fills air but says nothing:

"we're working hard in practice, working out the kinks. Have to translate it to games. It's a new beginning in 2008. We need to work hard individually as well. We have to be ready, be prepared. Consistency is hard in this league - we're trying to grasp this."

He was then asked about his match-up with Wade. Mike said that he was going to try to force him to shoot outside where Dwyane isn't nearly as efficient. Unfortunately, he was pretty damned efficient in the middle of the 3rd hitting about five 15-20 footers on Michael. Given that Michael was missing his attempts, that pretty much told the story of why he was consigned to the bench in the 4th.

[BrewersGM]

they won... when will we see the next victory?

[europa]

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It's the perfect trading pair....the Bucks and the Knicks....

Two GMs who don't have a clue what the hell they're doing. Yea, I think you might be right it does sound like a perfect match. At least in Harris' case he's never run an entire professional basketball league into the ground so he has that over Isiah.

Absolutely.
And I actually think it was good for the team as a whole (whether or not it will be good for Redd himself remains to be seen) for Redd to play poorly tonight and get benched by LK. I really think the point needed to be made that no one is bigger than the team, not even our highest paid player, Michael Redd.

I agree and it's what I said Krystkowiak needed to do this season. To his credit, he benched Mo early in the season when Mo's play was awful and last night he benched Redd when Redd wasn't playing well. It certainly helped that for the first time all season Villanueva, Simmons and Bell actually resembled NBA players in the same game but even if they were playing poorly it's a good message to be sent in my opinion.

I agree completely.. well written.

Thanks sis. As far as Crawford, I have to admit I'm puzzled as to how bringing in a player who shoots 40% or worse from the field and have him take as many shots as Redd takes would somehow be a good idea for this team. I swear the level of ReddHate on this forum has begun to reach unprecedented levels. It's one thing to believe the team needs to move him to rebuild, but the players some people think are as good as he is or better is nothing short of baffling.

[AussieBuck]

For the posters here who think that getting rid of Redd will see more touches in the post for Bogut I'd highly doubt it. I counted 6 times after the first quarter including 3 times in a row halfway through the second quarter when Bogut had great position deep in the post and Mo looked at him and then passed off to a guard. 3 of those times all Bogut would've had to do was catch and dunk. This isn't a Bogut is great and deserves the ball more post, just an observation which I could make when actually getting a good look at a game on a TV rather than my PC.

[Simulack]

Two GMs who don't have a clue what the hell they're doing. Yea, I think you might be right it does sound like a perfect match. At least in Harris' case he's never run an entire professional basketball league into the ground so he has that over Isiah.

Can't resist, it's just too perfect with Isiah's name coming up...

In response to me and DB comparing Harris to Isiah 18 months ago:

Comparing Harris to Thomas is pretty funny. Isiah tends to get blasted for his moves because he makes them without rhyme or reason -- not to mention he seems to have a thing for a 6-4 and under players (imagine that ). Isiah rarely makes a trade that is applauded because astute observers see he has no concrete idea of how to properly construct a team.

Harris, on the other hand, addresses team needs with nearly every move he makes. That's not to say he's perfect, he's not. But you can see a clear idea and pattern to what he's doing and it's about building the Bucks and improving depth and the overall talent base. Harris doesn't trade just to trade (ala Isiah); there's a clear plan involved to what he's doing.

The bottom line is Harris had little to work with and in a short time has build a foundation for the future that could have the Bucks becoming a true contending team in a short period of time.

[europa]

Yea, it's sad how far Harris has fallen in such a short time. I didn't see it coming but when you make so many terrible moves it becomes impossible to support the guy anymore. I sure thought Harris had a clue how to build this team but I have to admit people like FormerBuckFan were right on the mark about him and I wasn't. FBF tried to tell me I was going to be wrong about Harris and I didn't agree with him but he was right on the money.

[Simulack]

Yea, it's sad how far Harris has fallen in such a short time. I didn't see it coming but when you make so many terrible moves it becomes impossible to support the guy anymore.

What are the terrible moves he has made since then though?

The biggest decisions he has hade involved trading TJ for CV and drafting Yi.

The first one clearly hasn't worked out for the Bucks but was another move that most outside observers applauded at the time (although you were one of the few here outspoken against that particular trade). Still, given that Ford's career is in doubt how that trade will be evaluated is as well.

Drafting Yi's is looking like a major steal especially when many here were lobbying for Harris to draft Brewer who has thus far been one of the worst starters in the NBA statistically. Harris dodged a major bullet there.

Other than that we have deals like the Magloire and Smith ones which were minor.

We've also allegedly has major deals for Boozer/Marion shot down by Kohl. Either of those would have helped this team significantly in the short term.

The reason this team isn't very good is because of the same moves that were being applauded back then (drafting Bogut and signing Simmons) not because of anything Harris has done in the last year and a half.

[EastSideBucksFan]

For the posters here who think that getting rid of Redd will see more touches in the post for Bogut I'd highly doubt it. I counted 6 times after the first quarter including 3 times in a row halfway through the second quarter when Bogut had great position deep in the post and Mo looked at him and then passed off to a guard. 3 of those times all Bogut would've had to do was catch and dunk. This isn't a Bogut is great and deserves the ball more post, just an observation which I could make when actually getting a good look at a game on a TV rather than my PC.

Just to note, I am a huge Bogut supporter and want to see him get more offensive touches.

On that note, Bogut does not have the trust of his teammates all the time. When he gets the ball in the post he needs to take it strong. After he was successful with his first two shots last night he got the ball a couple more times after that only to throw up "flip" shots. I think one of them was a left handed no look hook shot that didn't even touch rim. After that, he didn't see the ball anymore. He needs to be more patient and even be willing to pass it back out to the perimeter and reestablish position. When he does this, he usually will see the ball again and is in a better position.

When Bogut becomes more consistent with the ball, he will see the ball more consistently.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Bogut just needs to dunk it more. I think he's afraid to draw the foul because he can't shoot free throws, but he still needs to do it.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Yea, it's sad how far Harris has fallen in such a short time. I didn't see it coming but when you make so many terrible moves it becomes impossible to support the guy anymore.

I'm sorry old friend, but I just have to point something out here:

Between your comment that Simulack quoted from 04/10/06 and when you turned on Harris, here are the transactions the Bucks made:

06/22/06 Bucks Larry Krystkowiak hired as assistant coach

06/28/06 Bucks David Noel second round pick (#39 overall)

06/28/06 Bucks rights to Damir Markota 2007 second round pick (better of Bucks and Rockets pick) (#33-Marcus Williams) trade with Spurs

06/29/06 Bucks Andrew Bogut team exercised contract option through 07-08

06/30/06 Bucks Charlie Villanueva T.J. Ford, cash trade with Raptors



I have a pretty good idea which one of those moves ultimately changed your mind about Harris... I hated that move too at the time (a minority position we shared at the time).

[fam3381]

When Bogut becomes more consistent with the ball, he will see the ball more consistently.

It's the classic chicken or the egg thing. I used to be more in the camp of Bogut not getting enough touches, but of late he just hasn't done enough with them either. Problem is he only can do something if he catches within 10 feet of the hoop. If he's at all outside he's of no use because he still can't make a jumper. Same old story unfortunately.

Thought it was interesting to see Yi get a couple post touches last night as well. It's almost comical how often Yi looks to post and then gets completely ignored. He's not comfortable enough right now in the post to be a consistent threat, as he doesn't have the confidence that he seemed to have this summer there. That's often a problem with bigs who don't get many post touches--they get a bit antsy and feel like they have to do something or they won't get it back, so instead of being patient and maybe kicking out they throw up a shot. Gadz always drove me crazy with that...at least when he actually played.

I'm curious--do the coaches just tell Yi to do that? I know he works on post stuff before games with the assistants. Does he have the freedom to freelance? Does he talk with the guards about why they don't give him the ball down there?

Still, it was nice to see Yi figure out ways to score when he was getting no room outside for open jumpers. Not always pretty, but he really contributed in the second half.

[blkout]

On that note, Bogut does not have the trust of his teammates all the time. When he gets the ball in the post he needs to take it strong. After he was successful with his first two shots last night he got the ball a couple more times after that only to throw up "flip" shots. I think one of them was a left handed no look hook shot that didn't even touch rim. After that, he didn't see the ball anymore. He needs to be more patient and even be willing to pass it back out to the perimeter and reestablish position. When he does this, he usually will see the ball again and is in a better position.

From where I was watching, he was looking good in the beginning, he kept running pick and rolls and getting open (didn't mean he always got the ball but it was working nonetheless) until the first time-out (I'm not sure which team took it) but when they came back the guards stopped looking for him alltogether and it turnt into a bit of a dribble-fest for the rest of the quarter. I switched off after that but I have no idea why, when Bogut was obviously a focal point at the start of the game, the ball would suddenly start avoiding him like the plague & this time it clearly wasn't his fault.

[Newz]

Yi has a pretty miserable post game right now. I think Yi has been great this year and has a bright future... But right now he shouldn't see the ball a whole lot in the post.

He's not strong or aggressive enough to be effective down there yet... He also doesn't really have any post moves at all. He's been effective a few times down there this season, but for the most part very ineffective.

I hope he develops a little turn around fade away and maybe a hook or something along those lines to compliment it? I think he is capable of something like that.

As for right now he is a pick-n-pop player, a very good catch and shoot player and a solid face up player who can drive around his defender at times.

His offensive game will only expand and get better as he gets more experience... His post game is something he needs to be working on in practice/the offseason (If Yi has an off season with his busy schedule).

[europa]

GAD, you ignored a number of other moves:

The Magloire to Portland trade which I thought would be a horrible trade and it was. That trade seriously weakened the team last season given how it removed the team's best rebounder and severely weakened the PG position given how bad Blake was.

The Mason signing.

The Bell signing.

The Voskuhl signing. He's been OK but I'm sorry, $3M for Jake Voskuhl is just plain dumb.

I didn't think the Mo signing was handled well but that one falls right on Kohl and his boys.

Have I missed any? I'm just going off memory here.

On the plus side, Harris traded Joe Smith for Ruben Patterson which proved to be a good move and one I endorsed at the time. I endorsed the Blake-Boykins trade and even though Blake played much better in Denver than he did with the Bucks, I think the Bucks got much more out of Boykins than they did Blake so that trade would receive a favorable grade in my opinion.

And lest you forget I was never a fan of the Gadz signing which obviously has hurt this team given the amount of money being paid to a third-string center and I didn't like the fact Pachulia was let go.

[europa]

So basically in the last two summers we have only one move that clearly has worked (the Patterson trade) and many others that range from flat-out terrible to just plain poor. Although the Yi pick looks to have been a good one, I still would've have jumped on the Marion trade but that move was independent of Harris since he never initiated it (the Suns did) and Kohl was the one to reject it.