06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation

Post #81 » by **ReasonablySober** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:08 pm

Well, first of all Luke you basically made my point in pointing out the NCAAs. I said that's fine if that's what you want to base your judgment on. It's been done before and it'll continue to be done. That's totally fine. But he wasn't a special player for almost five months. Looking at his entire body of work you see a guy that got really freakin' hot at the right time. Maybe that's representative of the guy we'll see in the NBA and he'll be truly special. Hell, I remember watching the tourney and saying on here that we should trade the farm for the guy. But eventually the glow of the games wears off and you have to question why he wasn't that guy November through most of February.

As for Mayo, he came in with people thinking he was going to be the next LeBron, and he certainly isn't. So when he didn't look like a freak and wasn't putting up double doubles every night people were quick to bash him. However, once you got past the fact that he wasn't King James and took him to be his own player, you could see just how good he really was. Outstanding jumper, crafty in the lane, solid ball handler and could be a hawk on the defensive end. As has been discussed by guys like Ford and Simmons, once you removed your preconceived notions of what Mayo was supposed to be, you could see a really excellent ball player.

Kerb Hohl · Post #82 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:15 pm

LUKE23 wrote:People are debating Bogut for #3 being fair, and for some reason you keep throwing in #8. You do realize the Bucks get raped in that deal right?

Oye...

Sorry, I was going off the Wolves board speculation from a while ago with Bogut/8 for 3/fillers.

I'd do the straight up trade then and then turn around and trade Redd for a solid C (someone in the Dalembert/Camby/Kaman mold (although that might be tough to do) and filler. Might have to package someone in there like CV.

Alexander or Love at 8

CV to GS for 14 (Rush)

And EDIT: I am not really one in the trade Bogut camp. I am just thinking up possibilities.

LUKE23 · Post #83 » by **LUKE23** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:19 pm

DrugBust wrote:Well, first of all Luke you basically made my point in pointing out the NCAAs. I said that's fine if that's what you want to base your judgment on. It's been done before and it'll continue to be done. That's totally fine. But he wasn't a special player for almost five months. Looking at his entire body of work you see a guy that got really freakin' hot at the right time. Maybe that's representative of the guy we'll see in the NBA and he'll be truly special. Hell, I remember watching the tourney and saying on here that we should trade the farm for the guy. But eventually the glow of the games wears off and you have to question why he wasn't that guy November through most of February.

As for Mayo, he came in with people thinking he was going to be the next LeBron, and he certainly isn't. So when he didn't look like a freak and wasn't putting up double doubles every night people were quick to bash him. However, once you got past the fact that he wasn't King James and took him to be his own player, you could see just how good he really was. Outstanding jumper, crafty in the lane, solid ball handler and could be a hawk on the defensive end. As has been discussed by guys like Ford and Simmons, once you removed your preconceived notions of what Mayo was supposed to be, you could see a really excellent ball player.

That is not really the case at all. First of all, USC had far significantly less talent and depth than Memphis. Memphis went 9-10 deep and has minimum two, possibly three first rounders, and that teams role players were significantly better than USC's. Rose put up 15/4.7/4.5 on 47.7% shooting on a top 2 team. You have to take that into consideration, because if Mayo and Rose were flip flopped, you know damn well Rose is getting the same minutes, touches, and likely just as good of numbers as Mayo while also leading that team to the tourney.

Hell, lets translate them to the same minutes. Here we go (36.8 minutes apiece, which is what Mayo got, Rose got 29.2).

Mayo: 20.7 ppg/4.5 rpg/3.3 apg/3.5 TO/1.5 spg/44.2% FG/80.3% FT/40.9% 3/1.28 PPS
Rose: 18.8 ppg/5.7 rpg/5.9 apg/3.4 TO/1.5 spg/47.7% FG/71.2% FT/33.7% 3/1.37 PPS

This also does not take into account that Rose played better in the postseason. But to say that Rose was just a guy or wasn't that great during the year as a whole is so flawed of an argument if you actually break it down it's hard to know where to start. The numbers clearly state otherwise.

Debit One · Post #84 » by **Debit One** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:20 pm

DB and others,

There is no way, no way in the world, that Bogut gets moved for #3.

He shouldn't, and he won't.

Post #85 » by **ReasonablySober** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:22 pm

You also have to take the systems into account, though. Mayo's scoring 25 a night in Memphis and dishing out five assists if he's playing in Calipari's system. I'm not sure we're even talking about Rose in the top three if he's on USC.

Kerb Hohl · Post #86 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:25 pm

We do know one thing. The T-Wolves will be upgrading in one regard.

http://nba.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p4865277dt.jpg

That projects for a new jersey to be pretty solid if you ask me. Much better than our Christmas tree.

Kerb Hohl · Post #87 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:25 pm

Another thought. I was over on the T-Wolves board and some of them would like Yi + 8 for 3. We all know they didn't want CV really in the first place. I'd be all over this especially if they returned a decent role player in the package.

xTitan · Post #88 » by **xTitan** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:30 pm

Bogut is not going anywhere...i see 18 and 10 plaus couple blocks, few assists and good defense as being star, so I believe Bogut is on the verge...a couple more team players and he is there. I like Mayo, but definitely does not have superstar potential, just not good enough, never flashed anything close to superstar potential at USC, with the great ones you can see greatness, don't see it here....does anyone think Mayo would have a career any better than Allen or Pierce? Those 2 are stars, not superstars....I would do CV and the 8, would not trade Yi, and definitely not stupid enough to think of moving bogut.

europa · Post #89 » by **europa** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:34 pm

I don't see Mayo being better than Ray. I think he'll be a second-tier SG like Ray and others have been. I like him and I'd absolutely do the trade regardless of whether it's Yi or Villanueva because I do think Mayo has the talent to be a good and maybe very good player and I think he's worth the gamble. But I'm not sure he'll be the driving force on a contending team. I think he'll be a good No. 2 guy, just like I think Bogut can be a good No. 2 guy. So the Bucks would then have to find at least one more No. 2 guy so they have three good pieces or keep looking for that clear No. 1 talent who will take this team to greatness.

europa · Post #90 » by **europa** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:36 pm

More from Chad Ford from his chat today. Just like last year, the Bucks want the third pick bad. They struck out with Horford; maybe they'll get lucky with Mayo:

Kevin (CT): I think the T'Wolves have the most interesting pick in the draft. What do you think they'll do?

SportsNation Chad Ford: (1:31 PM ET ) They do. They're waiting on the off chance that the Heat decide to take Mayo at No. 2 and Beasley falls into their laps. If Beasley goes No. 2, which most of us believe he will, they I think a trade is likely. The Knicks, Clippers, Bucks and Blazers all covet that pick and all could make attractive offers for the pick.

jerrod · Post #91 » by **jerrod** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:39 pm

i'd be thrilled if we got mayo and he ended up being pierce or ray

fam3381 · Post #92 » by **fam3381** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:40 pm

If you look at more broad measures of efficiency like winscore, then Beasley and Love are head and shoulders above everyone else. Mayo's winscores are poor and worse than Rose's IIRC.

LISTEN2JAZZ · Post #93 » by **LISTEN2JAZZ** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:46 pm

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that if we did land #3, we would take Mayo over Love.

LUKE23 · Post #94 » by **LUKE23** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:48 pm

DrugBust wrote:You also have to take the systems into account, though. Mayo's scoring 25 a night in Memphis and dishing out five assists if he's playing in Calipari's system. I'm not sure we're even talking about Rose in the top three if he's on USC.

This is nothing more than an opinion not backed by anything. I broke down the players in identical minutes. I know you like Mayo, I like him a ton as well, but to downplay Rose's season is just short-sighted.

BuckFan25226 · Post #95 » by **BuckFan25226** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:58 pm

I don't want any part of Kevin Love. He has big white stiff written all over him.

fam3381 · Post #96 » by **fam3381** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:05 pm

Bernman wrote:- Shyi Jianlian would be a good fit in Minnesota. He could cover your lankier centers, while Jefferson takes the more girthy ones. Offensively, Jefferson is a low post player while Jianlian is a roamer. It's a good fit on both ends of the court.

Obviously Yi gives them more defensive versatility than someone like Smith or Gomes, who are both too small to guard centers. But isn't the main reason the Wolves want Jefferson at PF because he can't guard "more girthy" centers? With Yi the Wolves are still totally overmatched against real centers like Howard, Yao, Bynum, Bogut etc.

Offensively I agree Yi's a good complement to Al, but it's a similar situation with what we have here. And I think Yi's a much better defensive fit for us since Bogut is a real center.

Bernman wrote:If people are reluctant to trade Yee, ask yourself this question, has he exceeded the expectations of a #6 pick when considering the opportunity he was given. Clearly he hasn't when looking at his PER and just relying on subjective observation. He certainly hasn't played himself into a #3 pick level player in the draft. If the Wolves were to offer the #3 for Yee, from a basketball not financial standpoint, you sign on the dotted line before their Xanax wears off.

Agree 100% on trading Yi for #3. Don't see it happening, but if you cut through the novelty BS it makes sense for us (but not for them IMO).

bango_the_buck · Post #97 » by **bango_the_buck** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:10 pm

#8, CV, and Mason for #3 and Antoine Walker.

fam3381 · Post #98 » by **fam3381** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:16 pm

DrugBust wrote:You also have to take the systems into account, though. Mayo's scoring 25 a night in Memphis and dishing out five assists if he's playing in Calipari's system. I'm not sure we're even talking about Rose in the top three if he's on USC.

I don't see why Mayo would score more for Memphis playing with DCR when he was asked to be a primary scorer by Floyd. Floyd might have kept his assists down a bit because he had to score, but I don't see the logical basis for thinking Mayo would be better at everything had he played for Memphis.

europa · Post #99 » by **europa** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:20 pm

fam3381 wrote:
DrugBust wrote:You also have to take the systems into account, though. Mayo's scoring 25 a night in Memphis and dishing out five assists if he's playing in Calipari's system. I'm not sure we're even talking about Rose in the top three if he's on USC.

I don't see why Mayo would score more for Memphis playing with DCR when he was asked to be a primary scorer by Floyd. Floyd might have kept his assists down a bit because he had to score, but I don't see the logical basis for thinking Mayo would be better at everything had he played for Memphis.

Mayo is one of DrugBust's guys. Once that happens you won't hear a negative peep about Mayo the rest of his career.

I hope I got that right.

europa · Post #100 » by **europa** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:24 pm

More from Ford's chat, this time about the Blazers liking Joe Alexander. If that's the case, I think the Bucks should look into a way to drop back and get the 13th pick and something else of value from the Blazers.

M (DC): What will Portland do with all their draft picks? Adding four rookies to already young team might not be the best idea.

SportsNation Chad Ford: (2:21 PM ET ) They won't. They're trying to package them to move up in the draft. I think Kevin Pritchard covets two guys: Russell Westbrook and Joe Alexander. Neither look like they'll be there at No. 13. If they can't move up they may try to package their second rounders for another late first rounder.l