Bogut:5-yr/$60mm Guaranteed + $12.5mm possible bonuses (OLD)

[El Duderino]

We don't know what the incentives are yet though, so you can't rationalize them one way or the other.

Sure you can and we all are. We all seemed to agree on this board for the last 3-months that Bogut was worth 5/$55 and many of us would be ok with 5/$60 at worst case.

That 5/$60 number included factoring in Bogut continuing to improve and really contribute to team success. None of us in those discussions put in the disclaimer "Well, I'd like to give him more than $60mm if he averages 17/11 or the team wins 50-games". Those things were supposed to be part of the package for the $60 million.

Now I'll anticipate the response to that being "Well, if the Bucks are doing great and Bogut is doing great, he'd then be worth $72 to $75 million so what is wrong with paying him that anyways then" The problem with that is that then the Bucks no longer get the benefit they had of locking him in at $60mm with no incentives as an offset to what they gave Bogut in lifetime financial security if the guy only stays as a 14/9 player.

Bogut is worth about $9-10 million "as-is". With a $60mm deal and no incentives, that gives him $12mm on "future growth potential" as a reward. We don't need to necessarily give him $12mm "as-is" plus another $13mm for a "reward."

While it's not a perfect analogy, this Bogut incentives stuff is kinda like with Arod in baseball. Here the guy was the highest paid player in baseball and getting 25 million a year, yet he had incentives for things like making the All-Star team and finishing in the top 3 of MVP vote. Hello, if you're the highest paid player in the game and get 25 million per, you should be making the All-Star team and be in the MVP consideration without getting extra rewards for it.

Like others have said, lets see the details, but if Andrew is getting 60 million and 12 million per based partially on less than special past stats and poor team records, Bogut should be expected to improve without getting extra money for that improvement unless the improvement is fairly substantial.

I'm glad Andrew is locked up, but his agent did a very good job for his client Hopefully come next year and years following, his vanishing jumper will reappear and Bogut going to the free throw line won't be a nervous adventure. Those two things are what mainly has held Andrew back from being a bigger option in the offense. Teams give him that short jumper all the time, if he finally starts taking it and actually making it, i'll be so much more excited about his future.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Does anybody have the PER differential rankings for starting NBA centers?

I've perused various profiles at 82games and discovered Drew has a better differential than many notable centers (Sheed, Chandler, Memo, Okafor, B-Miller, etc.), he's in a similar territory as Kaman and Fat Shaq, but I haven't been able to find a consolidated list for perspective.

Of course PER doesn't include many of his contributions like charges taken and making the right pass. Nevertheless, I think he could be just below the: Bynum and even Yaos of the league; if he just finally translates that jumper and free throw shooting.

The more and more I think about the deal, the more excited I become to have Bogut committed for six more years to the Bucks.

I know this isnt exactly what you're looking for, but hoopsstats is pretty good for stats and matchups won and lost and whatever else. Heres a link to Boguts Stats from this year
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... /08/16/223

[Fight the Tank]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... own/2.html

1. Andrew Bogut extended by the Bucks (five years, $60 million). Bogut could make as much as $72.5 million, but the bonuses are difficult to reach and if he winds up making the All-NBA team or leading Milwaukee to the Finals, then the Bucks will be happy to pay the extra amount. The Bucks are quietly confident that new coach Scott Skiles will raise the production of players like Bogut, which could have increased his value as a top restricted free agent next summer. The smart play is to sign good players preemptively, much as the Wizards did by agreeing to a four-year, $50 million extension with Antawn Jamison before the free-agent period began; otherwise, he would have been tempted by a much bigger offer from the Clippers in their need to replace Elton Brand.

It looks like the bonuses are very tough to reach according to Ian Thomsen.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

It looks like the bonuses are very tough to reach according to Ian Thomsen.

I'm not sure if I think that he knows what they are. If he knows, why wouldn't he just report them?

[LUKE23]

Agree with Thomsen about locking up guys a year before they hit RFA. All it takes is one team with cap space that is desperate to make a splash to foil your plans of signing said player for what you originally intended. I like the deal for the Bucks and will hopefully like it more once the incentives are released.

[fam3381]

I'm not sure if I think that he knows what they are. If he knows, why wouldn't he just report them?

Ian Thomsen isn't going to get into the details of Bogut's incentives if they vary by year and are generally somewhat complicated...the average person reading his SI column won't care about that level of detail.

But I agree that it's slightly unclear how much he knows. He may have simply heard from a source that they're difficult to reach because they're tied to those things, or maybe he's simply taking a leap without actually knowing any more than we do. We'll probably have to wait until GAD gets the nitty-gritty details before we know for sure.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

But the "if he leads the Bucks to the finals" thing makes it seem like he probably doesn't know. Could their really be an incentive in there that requires a finals appearance? I agree that he may not want to bore readers with the exact details, but if he has them in front of him, the off-hand examples he provides ought to resemble the actual ones.

Hopefully we'll find out soon; I'm very curious.

[Sigra]

"Bogut could make as much as $72.5 million, but the bonuses are difficult to reach and if he winds up making the All-NBA team or leading Milwaukee to the Finals, then the Bucks will be happy to pay the extra amount."

It looks like he just told us what the bonuses are. If this is true then I am very happy with this contract.

[europa]

"Bogut could make as much as $72.5 million, but the bonuses are difficult to reach and if he winds up making the All-NBA team or leading Milwaukee to the Finals, then the Bucks will be happy to pay the extra amount."

It looks like he just told us what the bonuses are. If this is true then I am very happy with this contract.

I agree. If the incentives are tied to strong team performances like making the Finals or strong individual performances such as making the All-NBA team, then it goes back to the point I made earlier that it's a win-win for both sides. No way does Bogut make the All-NBA team if the Bucks aren't having a great season.

Again, I'll reserve final judgment until we know specifically what the incentives are but at this time it sure looks like Hammond did a good job with this contract. If Kohl was personally involved as GAD suggests, it looks like he deserves praise as well.

[Nowak008]

Like I said, if he doesn't improve at all and remains a 16-10-3 player with good defense

If he doesn't improve at all he's a 14/9.8 player. Why do people continue to just dismiss his first 30 games of last year?

I don't. I simply believe that what he produced after the significant change in offensive approach is far too important to ignore given how I expect that role to remain in place going forward.

Yes you are. You dismiss it in the very next sentence! You dismiss the first 30 games games because the offensive approach.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we for all intensive purposes paying Bogut 14.5 mil? We probably won't go right up against the cap because if Bogut reaches his incentives after the season will make us pay the luxury tax. Is that right?

[europa]

Like I said, if he doesn't improve at all and remains a 16-10-3 player with good defense

If he doesn't improve at all he's a 14/9.8 player. Why do people continue to just dismiss his first 30 games of last year?

I don't. I simply believe that what he produced after the significant change in offensive approach is far too important to ignore given how I expect that role to remain in place going forward.

Yes you are. You dismiss it in the very next sentence! You dismiss the first 30 games games because the offensive approach.

I don't dismiss the first 30 games. I simply believe that the final 50 that Bogut played after a significant change in how he was being utilized offensively is significant. It's not a small sample size as myself, fam and Paul have argued. The reason why I put so much weight on those final 50 games as opposed to the first 30 is because I believe the approach we saw in those games is far more likely to be mirrored going forward than the approach that was in place prior to then. I don't see Bogut becoming less involved offensively and I think it's extremely possible he'll become more involved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we for all intensive purposes paying Bogut 14.5 mil? We probably won't go right up against the cap because if Bogut reaches his incentives after the season will make us pay the luxury tax. Is that right?

Bogut is getting $12M a season. He'll get more if he reaches certain incentives. We don't know specifically what those incentives are but the two reported by Ian Thomsen (All-NBA and the Bucks getting to the Finals) are ones I hope Bogut reaches. All Bucks fans should be hoping for that and if he reaches them, I'm not sure anybody will be complaining if he's getting a million or two above the $12M he's guaranteed to receive. At least I don't know why they would complain about that.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Yes you are. You dismiss it in the very next sentence! You dismiss the first 30 games games because the offensive approach.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we for all intensive purposes paying Bogut 14.5 mil? We probably won't go right up against the cap because if Bogut reaches his incentives after the season will make us pay the luxury tax. Is that right?

The purposes are not intense.

Intents AND Purposes.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

The only problem I have is that this is the same kind of thinking that led the Bucks to overpay for M.Redd. The fear of losing the guy and then not have a good/great player on the team.

I think it's a valid point. I think in general you have to find ways to not let talent walk without getting anything in return, but you're right that there are definitely examples of teams who would have been better off walking away. One of the Pistons' best decisions was letting Big Ben walk.

At the same time, if the Bucks had let Redd walk I'm not sure what happens. Are we a better team now? It's tough to sort out how things would be different since so much could have changed. But my sense is that we wouldn't have necessarily found a vastly better way to spend the money. We probably would have just gotten Simmons (since he was a backup plan) or maybe upped our offer to Hughes (yikes!). Unfortunately if you have money to spend, it's generally not spent well

Simmons was our initial "plan B" if Redd was going to leave, but we actually ended up working something out with Ray Allen to return here if Redd left. If Redd left, we were signing Allen, which also would have meant not having enough cap space to also sign Simmons. That arrangement we had with Ray Allen was about as much of a done deal as that type of arrangement could be.

Again, I'll reserve final judgment until we know specifically what the incentives are but at this time it sure looks like Hammond did a good job with this contract. If Kohl was personally involved as GAD suggests, it looks like he deserves praise as well.

Yes on Hammond.

But Kohl definitely doesn't deserve praise for his involvement in this.
Definitely not.

[El Duderino]

Again, I'll reserve final judgment until we know specifically what the incentives are but at this time it sure looks like Hammond did a good job with this contract. If Kohl was personally involved as GAD suggests, it looks like he deserves praise as well.

Yes on Hammond.

But Kohl definitely doesn't deserve praise for his involvement in this.
Definitely not.

I'm with you. Beyond Kohl giving the ok to spend the 60 million, i don't want to hear about him being involved in any sort of contract negotiations or player transactions.

[Zeus LA]

Yes on Hammond.

But Kohl definitely doesn't deserve praise for his involvement in this.
Definitely not.

GAD, have you been able to place your hands (or eyes) on Bogut's contract incentives? I read last earlier in this thread you hoping were to have access to them this week.

[Sigra]

GAD, have you been able to place your hands (or eyes) on Bogut's contract incentives? I read last earlier in this thread you hoping were to have access to them this week.

Same question from me GAD?

[crkone]

Anyone know the incentives yet?

[Ayt]

Anyone know the incentives yet?

I hope schooling David Lee isn't one of them.

[chuckleslove]

Anyone know the incentives yet?

I hope schooling David Lee isn't one of them.

He gets a $1 million bonus every time he takes a crap on Lee's head.

[verticalhops]

If your going to bring back these old school posts, is there a way that you can make it known that they are actually old school. Bogut isn't given any love around the league and i'm sure at times many people visit the bucks realgm site. Is there a way you can let it be known that the titles of these threads aren't recent?? We don't want to set him back even further than the current percention of people bar the bucks realgm site. No offence, i'm sure your doing it in good fun and to make a point of how far he has come.