Camby to Clips

[paul]

If any team needed to make this move, it was the Clippers.

Or perhaps the Bucks.... One could argue that Camby would have been an inspired choice to fill out our roster - all defense with no offense, athletic enough to play the 4 beside Bogut's 5. I'm amazed there weren't better offers than this on the table - even just a future first.

[More Bang For The Bucks]

very disappointed we didn't get camby
hell, if Denver is having a fire sale offer Gadzuric for Nene
Iverson, Melo and George gotta be pissed!

[El Duderino]

After this offseason I don't ever again want to be told that cap space and/or large expiring contracts are useless in Milwaukee.

Yep

That's exactly the first thought that entered my head when i saw the details of this trade. Not only do the Clippers get a fine player for nothing, at 2yrs and 10 million per, Camby has a very reasonable contract.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Kohl Is a Mome wrote:

I dont think so PP. The Nuggets have been trying to avoid the lux tax for years. Its more likely theyre frustrated their core isnt taking them out of the first round, so they dont want to pay that much above the lux tax for something that clearly isnt working.
Maybe they have another move planned and want more flexibility near it? (I dont think so but just throwing it out there)

Yep the Nuggets have been trying to find their way out of luxury tax hell for quite a while. They were willing to tolerate the extra cost if the team was close to winning a championship, but they obviously are not. Moving Camby makes sense and has been rumored forever, I'm just surprised that they didn't try a little bit harder to make it look less like a salary dump. Also, although I like Camby alot, I'm not sure I see him as a good replacement for Brand on both sides of the court for the Clippers.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

After this offseason I don't ever again want to be told that cap space and/or large expiring contracts are useless in Milwaukee.

They are USELESS if you don't win games!!!

We don't need expiring contracts! We need true Stars and we need to win games!!! The Nuggets do both!

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Good work from the clips, they have truly had a crazy off-season. I wonder if this makes us more likely to take a run at one of the other RFA's in a S&T as not many teams have cap space left now (Is that right???).

How 'bout we revive Redd for Melo?!?

If I were a clips fan, I'd be entirely worried at Camby and Baron only playing 30 games together all season.

You need to move Jefferson and Villanueva and Gadzuric for Melo. If they want Joe Alexander instead you do that.

But not Redd I don't think. Melo cannot play PF can he? Where was Hammond to acquire Camby?
Perhaps we have no room...but we move on.

If we can then I would move Redd if they threw in JR Smith perhaps or Nene who we should have gotten years ago!

[jr lucosa]

This trade does turn out to be more crazy,
the Nuggets arent even getting a 2nd, this trade gives them the option to swap 2nd rounders in the 2010 draft.. you would have to think that someone would have offered better than swaping 2nd rounders in the draft 2 years from now for a guy who is the best shot blocker in the league and is possibly the best overall interior defender in the NBA

The Nuggets might as well just throw in a couple of 1st rounders and Melo

[trwi7]

After this offseason I don't ever again want to be told that cap space and/or large expiring contracts are useless in Milwaukee.

Yep. I believe that Shawn Marion trade that Kohl wouldn't let Harris do last year involved taking on more salary than we were giving up because of the cap space we had.

[jr lucosa]

To clarify,
is 2 years from now, the Nuggets have a better record (lower draft pick) than the clippers this trade will end up looking like..

Clips get:
Camby
DEN 2nd round (2010)

Nuggets get
LAC 2nd round (2010)

if the Nuggets have a worse record 2 years from now, they wouldnt want to excersize the option of swaping picks and the trade would end up as

Clips get:
Camby

Nuggets get:
Nothing.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Talked to a guy from the nuggets today and he said the Bucks were very interested in Camby (obviously) and they gave the nuggets a list of players including CB, DG, Mason, and pick (not an offer but throwing names to see if the nuggets were interested in anyone). Obviously, the Nuggets wanted just to save money and werent interested.

As for being a Nuggets fan, can you blame the owner. He spent luxury tax money the past few years and got nothing. This trade saved him close to 40m, even though they are still over the cap.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

I'm stunned at this one. I would have given them Dez and our future 1st.

But one thing you guys might not be seeing here is the banking situation. I don't want this thread to go political, but the U.S. financial system is unraveling the past few days. This is a serious meltdown that could have some massive reprecussions for all of us. We do not know what type of pressure the Nuggets owner is under nor what type of terms he might have on financing for his team or payroll.

It is entirely possible that the events the last week have materially changed the financial complexion of the Nuggets ownership and capital structure and they are not able to afford essentially a $16 million a year player (2x with the luxury tax). My guess is Denver got desperate here financially behind the scenes.

Maybe. I doubt it is that complicated though.

I think Denver just decided that they had an opportunity to greatly reduce the amount of money they would be spending, and they took it. If they don't replace what they are spending on Camby with more than what they'd have to spend on a minimum salary player, they are probably going to save about ~$21 mil just for this season.

Even if they would have been able to trade us Camby while only taking back Dez and a 1st round pick from us, that ends up costing them ~$9.5 mil more than doing what they are doing on this Clipper deal. A year of Dez plus whatever our 1st round pick is likely to be is not worth $9.5 mil in today's NBA. If they want a mid 1st round pick, they could simply buy one from a team for $3 mil. There is usually at least one team willing to sell their 1st round pick for that price.

Besides, the Bucks would have to send out more salary than just Dez in order to be able to acquire Camby. We'd be $2.52 mil short. So either the Nuggets would have to take back at least that much salary from us (which in this scenario would be subject to dollar-for-dollar tax, so double that amount) or we'd have to find a third team with enough cap space or a large enough TPE to absorb that salary so Denver wouldn't have to.

So, for Denver, you've got a significant financial component to this.
However, it isn't a sure thing that what they are trying to do is just to save money. They may be willing to turn right around and replace some/all of the salary they just gave away. Perhaps they'd just rather spend that money elsewhere other than on a big like Camby, considering the amount of money they are spending on Nene, Kenyon Martin, and even Steven Hunter.

For example, perhaps the Nuggets would now wish to use the TPE they just generated (by sending out Camby) to absorb a salary of someone like Mo Williams. Just ignore defense to a large extent and try to blitz people off the court. Nene could be their big bodied rebounder for transition offense, and he could just turn and outlet pass to either Iverson or Mo, running down the court with each other and with Kenyon Martin and Carmelo. Just a thought.

Unfortunately I don't know what they'd be willing to give us for Mo (perhaps not much considering what they just traded Camby for) but that is for a different thread. I'm just giving an example. Denver has options. It isn't as simple as Denver just getting a future 2nd round pick in exchange for Camby. They have flexibility to continue that transaction via their non-simultaneous TPE or to allow themselves some or all of the savings they could choose to enjoy.

After this offseason I don't ever again want to be told that cap space and/or large expiring contracts are useless in Milwaukee.

What you say absolutely has merit.

However, in this specific instance, it isn't like we didn't have the means to acquire Camby if all it would have taken would have been expiring contracts. Villanueva+Dez for Camby would have been an allowable trade if the Nuggets had been interested. I would imagine the scenario with the Clippers was more appealing to them, for reasons I outlined above. But then again, maybe they would have rather had Villanueva and Dez, I don't know for sure.

If any team needed to make this move, it was the Clippers.

Or perhaps the Bucks.... One could argue that Camby would have been an inspired choice to fill out our roster - all defense with no offense, athletic enough to play the 4 beside Bogut's 5. I'm amazed there weren't better offers than this on the table - even just a future first.

As I outlined, a future 1st wouldn't necessarily have been more to the Nuggets liking, considering the cost associated with how they would have had to acquire it.

The Clippers were in a unique position to absorb Camby's salary without the Nuggets having to take back salary from them.
By doing this trade, the Nuggets generated a $10.1 mil TPE.
They have the flexibility to use none, some, or all of that to acquire a different player or players in a trade or trades, without having to limit themselves to the Clippers roster or to trying to immediately incorporate another team or team into a trade. They have time, they have flexibility.

After this offseason I don't ever again want to be told that cap space and/or large expiring contracts are useless in Milwaukee.

Yep. I believe that Shawn Marion trade that Kohl wouldn't let Harris do last year involved taking on more salary than we were giving up because of the cap space we had.

Correct.

Talked to a guy from the nuggets today and he said the Bucks were very interested in Camby (obviously) and they gave the nuggets a list of players including CB, DG, Mason, and pick (not an offer but throwing names to see if the nuggets were interested in anyone). Obviously, the Nuggets wanted just to save money and werent interested.

As for being a Nuggets fan, can you blame the owner. He spent luxury tax money the past few years and got nothing. This trade saved him close to 40m, even though they are still over the cap.

It really isn't yet possible to determine how much they will actually save. That depends on what else they choose to do. They can save as much as ~$22 mil this season if they limit themselves to filling out their roster with a handful of minimum salary players.

And then next season, how much they save besides Camby's actual salary really depends on what they do with subsequent transactions, unrestricted free agent Allen Iverson in particular.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I know the winscore fans and ppg fans will never see eye to eye, and I'm not trying to ignite a debate about that; but from where I stand, Camby was easily the Nuggets best player, and most directly responsible for fluctuations in their W/L record year to year. It's stunning to see a team give somebody that good away for cap relief. Why not Iverson? Perhaps they tried Iverson first? And I hope they tried Nene?

Pretty weird.

[REDDzone]

Agreed Adam. Really boggles the mind. A second rounder? Really?

[paulpressey25]

Good thought GAD in that the TPE could be used to absorb a guy like Mo Williams.

I'm still going with serious financial problems though as the reason for this. More serious than the usual luxury tax stuff Denver has been grappling with. It makes no sense to toss Camby on the scrap heap for nothing here. If they were going to take back Mo Williams with a TPE, why wouldn't we just trade them Mo for Camby and get it over with.

[Chapter29]

I think GAD hit it right on the head.

This trade and the TPE provides Denver with tremendous flexibility. They don't need to try and figure out a trade straight up player for player that makes sense.

My guess is that they don't use much of the TPE, but they did just get rid of arguably their best player and will need some help. They became a much worse team by saving money.

I know he's 34 and all, but man he is still very good. For a year or 2 the Clips are back in the game.

And although I agree having cap space worked out for the Clips, just because we have seen a few instances of this does not mean its the right thing to do. IE trading Redd away for expiring deals. My feeling is that we would not get so lucky.

[bucks59]

Kurt Thomas went for 3 different first round picks (two from the Suns, one from the Spurs) how did Camby only go for a conditional 2nd?

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Good thought GAD in that the TPE could be used to absorb a guy like Mo Williams.

I'm still going with serious financial problems though as the reason for this. More serious than the usual luxury tax stuff Denver has been grappling with. It makes no sense to toss Camby on the scrap heap for nothing here. If they were going to take back Mo Williams with a TPE, why wouldn't we just trade them Mo for Camby and get it over with.

I just think you are trying to ascribe extraordinary circumstances where none are required.
Maybe such circumstances do exist, but why would we conclude they do? This deal just isn't as bizarre as it seems on first glance. Don't get me wrong, when I first learned of it, I had the same kind of shocked initial reaction, wondering why the Nuggets would do something like that.

It isn't something that seems "normal" right away, in part because a transaction like this is fairly rare, due to the circumstances required for it to occur.

I'm still not sure why we should think that Denver is having some sort of abnormal financial situation. We don't make such assumptions about other trades that are in some ways less beneficial to a team than what Denver is doing.

We are talking about MAJOR dollars here.

They certainly could have figured out a different Camby trade where they would be perceived to get "more" but at what cost?
Would it have been better to at this point trade for an expiring contract (meaning there are very few if any savings this season, as compared to the $22 mil or so they could save themselves via the Clippers option they chose) along with a 1st round draft pick?

I see this morning that John Hollinger has a great article on this trade, essentially making the same arguments I am making. I tend to not be a fan of Hollinger AT ALL, but he and I seem to be on the same page with this one.

Also, he brings up a point regarding the TPE that I hadn't addressed yet. I am sure I would have thought of it eventually, but I hadn't yet thought of this exact specific angle when it comes to the flexibility the Nuggets will now have to do various things. Considering non-simultaneous TPEs like that don't expire for an entire year, they have the flexibility to be a key player when it comes to trades surrounding the draft, particularly while the 08-09 season is technically still in effect and OTHER teams might be looking to move in different directions. Denver can see what they have this year with the players they are retaining, and then if they want to re-sign Iverson, for example, they can then use their TPE to grab someone they've determined might be a better fit. There are so many different things they can do, and they'll be in a very unique position that currently no other team will be in prior to the end of NEXT July Moratorium.

Here is Hollinger's article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... ips-080716

[MajorDad]

the more trades i see like this the more i feel the NBA office has to start rethinking its financial salary structure and also start blocking trades made just to lessen a team's financial liabilities. The NBA is the only sports league that uses trade exemptions and mid cap exemptions. I think all of these financial dealings should be eliminated. Trades like this and the reasoning behind it from Denver's standpoint make me believe the NBA is headed down the same road the NHL went where teams, in order to compete, are spending way more money than they can really afford to spend. i hope the NBA does not suffer the same financial problems the NHL did.

perhaps what the NBA needs to start doing is a better job of reviewing a team's financial structure before they allow that team give a player a long term or max contract. if the Nuggets were so financially strapped, the NBA league office should have stepped in and not have approved their acquisition of iverson.

I always hate to see quality players just given away for money much like an auction block..

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

My question isn't "why trade a player for nothing to save $20 million." That part makes sense. The question is, why Camby? If you trade your best or second best player away to save money, then you probably aren't trying to win now any more. So why follow it up with another move to try and get better? Weren't there any lesser players that LA was willing to accept "for free"?

[Debit One]

My first thought upon hearing of this trade was ...

Boy, I bet the Knicks are going to kick themselves for not taking that 2nd round pick for Zach Randolph. I believe that they were gambling that the Clips wouldn't come up with a better option at PF and would raise their offer. They were wrong.

My second thought upon hearing of this trade was ...

Boy, I bet the Clips are glad that the Knicks didn't take that offer of a 2nd round pick for Zach Randolph, as they got a better player with a more friendly contract.