Is Hammond Done?

[raferfenix]

The realgm wiretap is asking this question based on a Hammond quote in the Chicago Tribune:

"I would assume, sitting here today, that this is probably the roster that we would probably go to camp with," Hammond said of the team. "But the job continues. It never changes. You continue to work the phones, talk to teams. That never stops. They never stop, we never stop. And if an opportunity would present itself to make us better, we're always going to consider things. But right now, I suppose, if you looked at it, you would probably say this is our group."

I was surprised by this quote as there certainly have been indications that Damon Jones has been told he won't be staying here. Even more obviously, our PF rotation might be the worst in the league even if CV has a good year. Even the CV lovers (CV-nation?) on this board should recognize that he brings almost none of the qualities that Hammond and Skiles have said they are looking for both in players and for our team: he won't help our fast break by rebounding, he won't help the defense at all, he isn't a tough player, he isn't a great lockerroom guy (even if he isn't a cancer), and he definitely won't help the ball movement on offense with his shot happy ways.

So the question becomes what is Hammond doing about our PF situation:

1. Is he posturing so teams don't think we're as desperate to add to the PF rotation?

I certainly hope this is what he is doing, even if the strategy won't work. His minimal attempts at this prior to our last trade probably didn't increase Mo's trade value, but it's definitely possible that this helped increase our return for Yi. Will it work to increase CV's?

2. Does he want to trade CV and is just waiting for the right deal and hoping he increases his trade value under Skiles?

This one might be the most likely, but as I worried with Mo, I have a hard time seeing CV increasing his trade value much under Skiles. CV is in a contract year, but I worry that his sense of entitlement will prevent him from going all out in practice to beat out Francisco Elson and Malik Allen and he'll just pout like he did last year.

3. Does he really like CV and feel comfortable going into the season with him and Elson/Allen backing him up?

I think this is the least likely, but I bet CV-nation will disagree. As I said above, CV is the antithesis of what Hammond and Skiles have been saying they value, which is why I just can't wrap my head around them setting up a situation where Skiles will almost be forced to play CV big minutes considering how rancid our rotation is around him.

[europa]

He's posturing. He still wants to trade Villanueva but the market for him has been weak. Perhaps it will pick up but I'm not confident it will. Mo's never did. So while I'm hopeful Hammond will find a taker for Villanueva and upgrade the PF position I'm not confident the market for Villanueva is going to change all that much.

[paulpressey25]

He's done. He and Skiles have come to an agreement that they can get by with Elson and Malik Allen at PF if CV doesn't play the right way.

And what's the point of giving CV away for crap? You might as well ride him one more year and see what you get from him. He's the most talented player on the team for those brief moments the brain synapses are firing. If Mo couldn't even draw Haslem, I can't see CV bringing back anything worthwhile either.

I like bringing in all these veteran guys. Should be fun.

[raferfenix]

He's done. He and Skiles have come to an agreement that they can get by with Elson and Malik Allen at PF if CV doesn't play the right way.

And what's the point of giving CV away for crap? You might as well ride him one more year and see what you get from him. He's the most talented player on the team for those brief moments the brain synapses are firing. If Mo couldn't even draw Haslem, I can't see CV bringing back anything worthwhile either.

I like bringing in all these veteran guys. Should be fun.

I am desperately afraid of this situation unless we are REALLY high on Elson or we expect to play Joe Alexander for long stretches with Jefferson. I understand not giving CV away for crap as long as he doesn't affect the lockerroom. Europa hinted in another thread that the only offer we've gotten for CV (at least that he's heard about) was so bad that even HE wouldn't do it.

However, even if we decide not to trade CV, are we really giving up already on adding anyone else to the PF rotation? If we have one injury at PF all of a sudden Skiles will have a real hard time benching CV even if he wants to.

Plus, even if everyone is healthy, is anyone disagreeing that we have the worst PF rotation in the whole league?

[europa]

And what's the point of giving CV away for crap?

I don't think he's going to. He would've done that already if that was his intention. He was prepared to get rid of Mo just to be rid of him. I don't believe he feels the same way about Villanueva and given the fact Villanueva is still on the roster I think it's clear that's the case. But he still wants to trade him if he can upgrade the position. I disagree Villanueva is the most talented player on the team but even if he is, he's also the most anti-Skiles player on the team as well. I give it about 3 seconds into the first day of practice before Skiles goes apes**t over Villanueva.

[raferfenix]

And what's the point of giving CV away for crap?

I don't think he's going to. He would've done that already if that was his intention. He was prepared to get rid of Mo just to be rid of him. I don't believe he feels the same way about Villanueva and given the fact Villanueva is still on the roster I think it's clear that's the case. But he still wants to trade him if he can upgrade the position. I disagree Villanueva is the most talented player on the team but even if he is, he's also the most anti-Skiles player on the team as well. I give it about 3 seconds into the first day of practice before Skiles goes apes**t over Villanueva.

I also don't think we'll end up giving CV away for crap. However, are we really not going to use Damon Jones' ending contract or another trade or signing to shore up the PF position before the season starts?

Not giving away CV is one thing, but only having Elson and Allen backing him up is entirely different. I ask again----is there a worse PF rotation in the league than that one?

[ReasonablySober]

I also don't think we'll end up giving CV away for crap. However, are we really not going to use Damon Jones' ending contract or another trade or signing to shore up the PF position before the season starts?

Not giving away CV is one thing, but only having Elson and Allen backing him up is entirely different. I ask again----is there a worse PF rotation in the league than that one?

I feel better about the PF situation than I do the PG rotation. Maybe we can use Jones to shore up the PG spot.

[paulpressey25]

Not giving away CV is one thing, but only having Elson and Allen backing him up is entirely different. I ask again----is there a worse PF rotation in the league than that one?

Who's Hammond going to get that would be an upgrade to the three guys he's got? Again, we apparently couldn't get even Haslem or Varajao for Mo. And while I like Haslem and Varajao, neither guy is close to KG, Bosh, etc.

We don't have the worst PF rotation.....go through the rosters. Do you want Sean May and Nazr? Or out in Sacramento you've got injured SAR, Kenny Thomas and Shelden Williams. If you consider Tim Duncan a center, Kurt Thomas isn't exactly a world beater at this point although he does what they need. You either have a superstar there like Bosh, a good workman like Haslem or a committee of guys you hope will step up like we do.

[bango_the_buck]

I don't think we're done - I think Damon will be moved (one way or another) before the season starts, most likely for another PF. However, I don't see us moving CV (at least not until the trading deadline). Skiles is exactly the type of coach CV needs to reach his potential. Either he's going to break out or flame out, and I think Hammond wants to wait and see how he responds before he sends him packing. No sense in trading him now if the return is going to be poor. If he explodes, hang on to him or trade him while his value is high. If not, you can always trade him for a poor return later...

[carmelbrownqueen]

Hammond is making an attempt not to tip his hand. Is he desparate to move CV? Or would he go into the season with CV on the roster? Leave everyone guessing and perhaps the offers will increase in size and hopefully talent. Right now Hammond wants to leave where we are with developing this team wide open, let everyone guess. The offers for CV and Mo all summer have been horrible, and by not seeming desparate you get get more favorable offers. Teams looked at what Hammond was saying shortly after being hired as an indication that we were going to make drastic moves and believed they could lowball us because we must be desparate to change the culture of the team. When he wouldn't take some of the horrendous offers initially made, a few backed off, others waited, and none of them upped their offers to levels that might have made fans happy. Hammond and his guys waited patiently with the Mo situation (although many of us might disagree on the outcome) and they will do the same with the CV situation.

One of the more telling things I have read recently was a quote from Franscisco Elson on hoopsworld.com where he stated that his agent gave him the impression there might be an indication he could start for this team. Unless his agent was blowing smoke up his arse, that impression came from somewhere... and I will take it that this impression was given during the negoitation process. I believe the only guaranteed starters at this point are Redd, RJ, Bogut and apparently Ridnour.. I don't think anyone should pencil in CV as a starter regardless of his talent.

I could honestly see the Bucks going with a line up of Ridnour, Redd, RJ, Elson and Bogut.. with CV playing a backup role (which I don't think he would be happy with). So my question is more, which guys are available that could provide us with the size, athleticism and defense (offense is somewhat optional) to improve our PF roation? Seems like OKC wanted more than what we were willing to give for us to get Wilcox or Collison? Will we target David Lee (not a great defender but he hustles hard)? Or try again for Haslem? We'll see. The only way I see this team staying as is though, is if Hammond can't get a decent offer for CV and Damon Jones.

[xTitan]

I also don't think we'll end up giving CV away for crap. However, are we really not going to use Damon Jones' ending contract or another trade or signing to shore up the PF position before the season starts?

Not giving away CV is one thing, but only having Elson and Allen backing him up is entirely different. I ask again----is there a worse PF rotation in the league than that one?

I feel better about the PF situation than I do the PG rotation. Maybe we can use Jones to shore up the PG spot.

I feel much much better about the PG spot...first time we have actually had one.............the 4 spot is fugly though.

[raferfenix]

Not giving away CV is one thing, but only having Elson and Allen backing him up is entirely different. I ask again----is there a worse PF rotation in the league than that one?

Who's Hammond going to get that would be an upgrade to the three guys he's got? Again, we apparently couldn't get even Haslem or Varajao for Mo. And while I like Haslem and Varajao, neither guy is close to KG, Bosh, etc.

We don't have the worst PF rotation.....go through the rosters. Do you want Sean May and Nazr? Or out in Sacramento you've got injured SAR, Kenny Thomas and Shelden Williams. If you consider Tim Duncan a center, Kurt Thomas isn't exactly a world beater at this point although he does what they need. You either have a superstar there like Bosh, a good workman like Haslem or a committee of guys you hope will step up like we do.

Agreed that it's really slim pickings for upgrades. However, we don't necessarily need a world beater at PF (especially if we keep CV). So far, the best potential options I see are David Lee, Carl Landry, or Reggie Evans.

I disagree with you about the Kings and Spurs having a better rotation than us (though you are right that the Bobcats' is probably worse). The Kings have a variety of young players they can give clock to like their first rounder from this year Jason Thompson, their first rounder from last year Spencer Hawes, and the plaeyr they traded Bibby for in Sheldon Williams. Even if you think our trio is better, they at least have players that could be with them long term and who should show improvement.

And the Spurs look weak at PF/C (wherever duncan doesn't play), but they were deep enough to be able to bench Elson. We have to rely on him a whole lot though, which really worries me as if he falls flat we may have no choice but to play CV huge minutes.

[raferfenix]

At PG we have a player who our coach and GM think can be our long term starter, so at the least we have a prospect who we think is worth developing there. We also have a player they like a whole lot in Ridnour, and Tyronne Lue is an adequate backup PG but a great 3rd stringer. Plus we have Bell to man that position against bigger guards.

The idea that we are worse off at PG is laughable. Unless we plan on playing Alexander a lot at PF or somehow we like CV (despite him not having any qualities our coach or GM look for in a player), we don't have one young PF worth developing.

We also are incredibly thin at that position----how pathetic is it that an injury to Francisco Elson could jeopardize our season?

[paulpressey25]

However, we don't necessarily need a world beater at PF (especially if we keep CV). So far, the best potential options I see are David Lee, Carl Landry, or Reggie Evans. .

I would say none of those guys are available for what we would be willing to give up. CV and Bell for Haslem might make some sense for Miami, but if Mo couldn't bring Haslem, I can't see that package doing it either. And I don't know that I want to give up that package for Haslem at this point.

Look at the bigs rotation of Bogut, Elson, Gadz, Malik Allen and CV. Somebody has to score in that grouping. Bogut's much better but still hasn't developed an outside shot. CV is light years more talented offensively than any guy we've got. I don't see the rush to move him out.

And Rafer, I wouldn't worry about an injury to Elson "jeopardizing our season". Elson was a nice signing and I really like the guy. But he's not going to make or break us. Bogut/Redd/RJ and whatever PG steps up are what will make or break this team.

[Bernman]

PP, merge this thread with "who stays/who goes", please. It's pretty much the same thing.

Errrr, Bass?

[carmelbrownqueen]

I don't think we're done - I think Damon will be moved (one way or another) before the season starts, most likely for another PF. However, I don't see us moving CV (at least not until the trading deadline). Skiles is exactly the type of coach CV needs to reach his potential. Either he's going to break out or flame out, and I think Hammond wants to wait and see how he responds before he sends him packing. No sense in trading him now if the return is going to be poor. If he explodes, hang on to him or trade him while his value is high. If not, you can always trade him for a poor return later...

I don't buy that Scott Skiles can turn CV around. CV is a talented player that just doesnt have the desire to be better, and Skiles can't have the desire for him, nobody can that has to be internal. He doesn't have it. He's satisfied with being a good offensive player and already believes he is better than what he really is. I think playing under Skiles could actually decrease his value because I fully believe he would end up in Skiles dog house even before the season starts. Also, let's not dismiss earlier this summer we received information from BucksSkinsFan, Woelfel (he hinted) and a few other insiders that all consistently stated Charlie Villanueva does not want and is scared to death to play under Skiles. He apparently isn't looking forward to the challenge...and I'm not optimistic about it either.

[raferfenix]

PP, merge this thread with "who stays/who goes", please. It's pretty much the same thing.

Errrr, Bass?

why is this the same? I'm asking if we're done for the offseason and if we are why, not who stays/who goes long term.

And PP---here are the scenarios that I can see working to get those PF's I lsited:

Bucks trade: CV, Gadz
Knicks trade: Lee, Jeffries (or Jerome James)

Bucks trade: CV, Damon Jones
Rockets trade: Carl Landry (sign and trade)

Bucks trade: Gadz (or Damon Jones)
Sixers trade: Reggie Evans


I also disagree that we aren't risking our season on an Elson injury as we are currently constructed, not because Elson is so essential to our success, but that CV having to play huge minutes while Skiles has no ability to bench him would be that detrimental. I agree that we could use some post scoring, but CV is prone to Tim Thomasing around the 3 point line, and if we have no ablity to bench him how will we prevent that?

[paulpressey25]

Rafer...we've also got Malik Allen. Skiles played that guy extensively in Chicago a couple years ago and Chicago did well. We'll be fine. If you can figure out some way to get David Lee, Haslem or Carl Landry here, more power to you. I just don't see it.

[Bernman]

PP, merge this thread with "who stays/who goes", please. It's pretty much the same thing.

Errrr, Bass?

why is this the same? I'm asking if we're done for the offseason and if we are why, not who stays/who goes long term.

And PP---here are the scenarios that I can see working to get those PF's I lsited:

Bucks trade: CV, Gadz
Knicks trade: Lee, Jeffries (or Jerome James)

Bucks trade: CV, Damon Jones
Rockets trade: Carl Landry (sign and trade)

Bucks trade: Gadz (or Damon Jones)
Sixers trade: Reggie Evans


I also disagree that we aren't risking our season on an Elson injury as we are currently constructed, not because Elson is so essential to our success, but that CV having to play huge minutes while Skiles has no ability to bench him would be that detrimental. I agree that we could use some post scoring, but CV is prone to Tim Thomasing around the 3 point line, and if we have no ablity to bench him how will we prevent that?

Eagle13 was talking about this offseason also. They are basically the same topic.

[bango_the_buck]

I don't buy that Scott Skiles can turn CV around. CV is a talented player that just doesnt have the desire to be better, and Skiles can't have the desire for him, nobody can that has to be internal. He doesn't have it. He's satisfied with being a good offensive player and already believes he is better than what he really is. I think playing under Skiles could actually decrease his value because I fully believe he would end up in Skiles dog house even before the season starts. Also, let's not dismiss earlier this summer we received information from BucksSkinsFan, Woelfel (he hinted) and a few other insiders that all consistently stated Charlie Villanueva does not want and is scared to death to play under Skiles. He apparently isn't looking forward to the challenge...and I'm not optimistic about it either.

I agree that there is a (quite possibly good) chance that CV ends up in Skiles dog house. What Skiles wants out of his players and what CV has given during his first few years in the league aren't exactly on the same ends of the spectrum. But this is CV's contract year, and if he wants his big payday, he's going to need PT. And to get that, he's going to have to play Skiles' way. With Skiles pushing him and the extra motivation for his next contract, I can see him having a breakout year. Like I said, I see it being one way or the other - he's either going to breakout or flame out.