Bucks Jazz Postgame

[carmelbrownqueen]

we have to beat Detroit on Saturday.

And we would still be under .500.

Ergo the beginning of that post which stated we are getting closer and closer to .500.. we aren't there yet but if we keep winning that will only put us one game away.

[BDUB_30]

Im really glad this board is coming around on Ridnour...

Finally everyone else is seeing what he brings.

No, this is an unfair post.

You state it like Ridnour has been playing this way all year long, but we are only now able to for some reason comprehend how good he is.

That's simply not true.

Ridnour sucked the first half of the season, and he got flack for it.

He has been really, really good the last 5-6 games, and solid for a few more beyond that, and he isn't taking the flack anymore.

His is a very different game when he is hitting shots, and judging from tonight he hits shots when they come in the flow of the offense and he doesn't jack transition 20 footers all night long.

I love Ridnour's recent play, he has been above average in nearly all facets of the game (although I still would like him to look for the pass a little more often on pick and rolls), but if he goes back to horrible Ridnour, he will take the criticism associated with that.

well alot of people felt that ridnour wasnt performing due to the injury problems ..

even when he was playing minutes , he would come out of games and lay on the court due to the back spasms .

some of the early critisims of ridnour clearly ignored that , as if it had no impact on his play . and alot of people that saw how well ridnour performed in the preseason simply could see how the injuriers were effecting his game and thought the critisims were a bit off base .


ridnour has put together a nice stretch as of late ...is it of no coincidence that he is finally healthy ? which would make his intial critisms unjustfiable.

[trwi7]

we have to beat Detroit on Saturday.

And we would still be under .500.

Ergo the beginning of that post which stated we are getting closer and closer to .500.. we aren't there yet but if we keep winning that will only put us one game away.

Got it. I thought you meant if we beat the Pistons we would be .500.

I don't think Bogut played badly tonight,

I disagree. I thought he was awful on offense. He couldn't establish any position in the post and when he tried to, he got pushed out. He also had at least one offensive rebound that he could've easily slammed home and instead went for a weak tip in and missed it.

[BDUB_30]

bogut was bad imo as well .


im having big problems with his "just stand there with your arms straight up and dont challenge " defense . he needs to be more active down there , more lightfooted ..

i think that was part of the rebounding problem tonight , andrews inability , or unwillingness to move around down there .. he is totaly content with tapping around rebounds , or swating at them , and totaly content with not ever leaving his feet to challenge a layup . theirs at least 2-3 plays a game where if he just jumped hed most likely get the swat .

great positonal defender , amazingly horrible shotblocker ... leave yer damn feet on occasion andrew .. hes a 6'3 pg , youre a 7'1 center .. you should be throwing shots out of the damn gym .

[skones]

Im really glad this board is coming around on Ridnour...

Finally everyone else is seeing what he brings.

No, this is an unfair post.

You state it like Ridnour has been playing this way all year long, but we are only now able to for some reason comprehend how good he is.

That's simply not true.

Ridnour sucked the first half of the season, and he got flack for it.

He has been really, really good the last 5-6 games, and solid for a few more beyond that, and he isn't taking the flack anymore.

His is a very different game when he is hitting shots, and judging from tonight he hits shots when they come in the flow of the offense and he doesn't jack transition 20 footers all night long.

I love Ridnour's recent play, he has been above average in nearly all facets of the game (although I still would like him to look for the pass a little more often on pick and rolls), but if he goes back to horrible Ridnour, he will take the criticism associated with that.

I really don't think his statement was out of line at all. There were A LOT of guys bashing Ridnour claiming that Sessions should start over him without question. There were a few, however, on this board who disagreed and claimed Ridnour ran a MUCH better offense than did Sessions. This month, Ridnour seems to be settling in and having more good games than bad. He just needs to keep it up.

[carmelbrownqueen]

The fact that Bogut is so easily pushed out of position in the post or isn't able to establish position even against much much smaller players has always concerned me. In my opinion even more reason why we need a big bodied PF to help out in post....

I have always thought of Bogut as a high post player.. I was just hoping he would develop a jumpshot to help him out.

[REDDzone]

well alot of people felt that ridnour wasnt performing due to the injury problems ..

even when he was playing minutes , he would come out of games and lay on the court due to the back spasms .

some of the early critisims of ridnour clearly ignored that , as if it had no impact on his play . and alot of people that saw how well ridnour performed in the preseason simply could see how the injuriers were effecting his game and thought the critisims were a bit off base .

ridnour has put together a nice stretch as of late ...is it of no coincidence that he is finally healthy ? which would make his intial critisms unjustfiable.

Nah, if he was so injured to the point that he hurt his team, he shouldn't have been playing. The criticism was totally justifiable.

Not to mention his play from the first few games looked exactly like it has looked the last two seasons, so why would anyone expect his play to be due to injury?

If someone wants to criticize our patience, that's fine, but I just don't think its fair to make it seem like he has been playing this way all season and most of us were oblivious to it.

[REDDzone]

Again, criticism of this board being impatient, or bipolar, or whatever, is just fine with me.

But would anyone make the claim that this Ridnour that we have watched over the last 5-6 was the same Ridnour all season? If so, his fg% and assist numbers wouldn't be trending up consistently over the last few weeks.

[paulpressey25]

I know where Wichmae is coming from. Ridnour was playing terribly in that stretch and he was getting hammered hard as a worthless player from a few directions on here. It was similar to the treatment Blake got.

Neither guy is a top tier PG by any stretch, but both guys are capable of being decent contributors to a winning team in the right setting. Ridnour was playing terrible during that stretch and deserved criticism, but he wasn't a guy worthy of being tossed in the category as being in the bottom 10% of all PG's on NBA rosters.

[aboveAverage]

I had three problems with Bogut in this game.

1. He got pushed out of position multiple times by Koufos and Millsap. He's gotta get stronger.
2. He did not do a good job of getting rid of the ball when the double team came. He gets double teamed so often now, he has to learn how to find the open man off a double team. This comes naturally to any good big man in the league.
3. He tried to tip too many offensive rebounds in instead of catching the rebound, and going up again. He doesn't have to tip every single offensive rebound in off of one touch. It's okay to catch the offensive rebound, and go up strong again. He should learn from Luc.

[BDUB_30]

well alot of people felt that ridnour wasnt performing due to the injury problems ..

even when he was playing minutes , he would come out of games and lay on the court due to the back spasms .

some of the early critisims of ridnour clearly ignored that , as if it had no impact on his play . and alot of people that saw how well ridnour performed in the preseason simply could see how the injuriers were effecting his game and thought the critisims were a bit off base .

ridnour has put together a nice stretch as of late ...is it of no coincidence that he is finally healthy ? which would make his intial critisms unjustfiable.

Nah, if he was so injured to the point that he hurt his team, he shouldn't have been playing. The criticism was totally justifiable.

Not to mention his play from the first few games looked exactly like it has looked the last two seasons, so why would anyone expect his play to be due to injury?

If someone wants to criticize our patience, that's fine, but I just don't think its fair to make it seem like he has been playing this way all season and most of us were oblivious to it.

well thats the mentality i was specificaly talking about " he shouldnt of been playing if he was injured " ..thats kind of irrelevant ...the bottom line was , he was playing and he was injured .

is it possible that an injured ridnour at say 60% is better then a lue / sessions combo ? i imagine so .


his play from the last few games has not looked exactaly the same , he is getting LIFT on his jumper , that is the first thing to go when you have back spasms , and its the one thing we all critisized ridnour heavily on was his inability to make a shot .without the back problem , i say ridnour hits more of them shots ...is that so far out of the realm of possibilities ?

the back is better now , the shots are now dropping .. i dont think it gets any more clear then that .

by the way , nobody is saying that ridnour has been playing at this level all season ..

[emunney]

I thought Bogut played fairly well for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th. I don't know if he took one too many hits and his back locked up or what, but while he was still moving his feet well, he was standing almost straight up and just reaching for rebounds.

When we went to him a few times late in the game he was a little slow to make his move, but when he made it, he was clearly looking to pass and it seemed like our spacing was awful and we were all clustered between the weakside low block (where nobody should have been) and the weakside three point line. Luke was up around the top of the key, but with no passing lane. It was ugly. It's fine that Bogut can't get around Millsap, but he shouldn't be getting pushed out to 15 feet or beyond by him, Malone-like as he may be. Something was not right. We've seen Bogut stonewall Dwight Howard in the low post, so strength is not the issue... maybe conditioning, maybe his back.

[RayRayJones]

Just skimming through this - whoever said Bogut isn't a low post player and shouldn't be used with his back to the basket is just crazy. I'm sorry, you're a 7 foot plus center in this league and you're a #3 option who will likely become #1 in the near future (he's our only guy who's locked up and Redd/RJ will likely be traded in the near future) and you cannot play the high post, with or without a jumper.

He's got to learn to develop a post game and if you really think he shouldn't you're crazy. Many on here will say that he's missing a 15 foot jumper, I disagree. Bogut is lacking post presence and he always has. He showed bits and pieces of it last year in his January-February stretch and it's all but disappeared this year so far. If Bogut develops a signature shot, say a baby Shaq hook or a sky hook, a fadeaway, a turn-around, what have you, he can become a top 3 center in this league without a doubt to me. Shaq doesn't have a consistent 15-foot jumper and he's considered one of the best centers ever. Now, is Bogut as dominant as Shaq is (was) down low? No, but can he develop into that, without even bulking up? Absolutely. I think that's what Skiles is hinting at in interviews and pushing for in practice.

[REDDzone]

well thats the mentality i was specificaly talking about " he shouldnt of been playing if he was injured " ..thats kind of irrelevant ...the bottom line was , he was playing and he was injured .

I guess this is where we differ. For me, the bottom line was, he was playing, and he was playing horribly.

by the way , nobody is saying that ridnour has been playing at this level all season ..

Maybe I took Wich's post wrong (if so, sorry Wich). But when he said "finally everyone else is seeing what he brings...", I took it to mean that some people were just beginning to see how much Ridnour contributed, while others have seen these contributions all along.

I will say that those who pointed out that his fg% was much lower than his career average and would eventually even out were definitely correct, and that was a good defense of Ridnour at the time.

[bigkurty]

Whats the big deal if people gave Ridnour crap. He was sucking and Sessions was better for awhile. Now Ridnour is better so he should be getting more minutes. As long as the players who are performing are getting most of the minutes, I will like those players at that time and hope Skiles gives them the most minutes. Criticizing players who are slumping is part of the deal when you go to a forum. Who cares if people change their opinions. Changing your opinion on matters as circumstances change is a sign of intelligence. Being bull headed and sticking by your beliefs even though all evidence is against you is a sign of not being intelligent IMO. If you are smart, you should be willing to change your opinion in order to adapt to whatever is in front of you to give yourself the best chance to succeed. At least that's how it works in business.

[paul]

I really don't think his statement was out of line at all. There were A LOT of guys bashing Ridnour claiming that Sessions should start over him without question. There were a few, however, on this board who disagreed and claimed Ridnour ran a MUCH better offense than did Sessions. This month, Ridnour seems to be settling in and having more good games than bad. He just needs to keep it up.

Agreed completely and a lot of that bashing got WAY out of hand. Guys were literally staying silent whenever he made a good play then calling him every name under the sun when he had a TO, not surprisingly many of those guys were big Mo fans who it seemed like for some reason felt they had to abuse Ridnour to stick up for Mo by proxy. Even when his shot wasn't dropping and he was injured he still did some very good things for us on court (of course he had a few poor games as every player does) - now with his shot going he's gaining confidence and playing super ball, great to see. I hope some of the haters from earlier in the season man up and give him the credit he deserves rather than just staying silent until he has a bad game.

An ugly game to watch, an ugly win to watch, and I couldn't be happier. I thought Luke and Moute were the only guys who really played well at all, most of the other guys were just ok or below average but the important thing is we did the team things necessary to get the win. You aren't going to play well every game but the good teams are the ones who pull out wins playing poorly - we are on our way to being a good team.

[BDUB_30]

Just skimming through this - whoever said Bogut isn't a low post player and shouldn't be used with his back to the basket is just crazy. I'm sorry, you're a 7 foot plus center in this league and you're a #3 option who will likely become #1 in the near future (he's our only guy who's locked up and Redd/RJ will likely be traded in the near future) and you cannot play the high post, with or without a jumper.

He's got to learn to develop a post game and if you really think he shouldn't you're crazy. Many on here will say that he's missing a 15 foot jumper, I disagree. Bogut is lacking post presence and he always has. He showed bits and pieces of it last year in his January-February stretch and it's all but disappeared this year so far. If Bogut develops a signature shot, say a baby Shaq hook or a sky hook, a fadeaway, a turn-around, what have you, he can become a top 3 center in this league without a doubt to me. Shaq doesn't have a consistent 15-foot jumper and he's considered one of the best centers ever. Now, is Bogut as dominant as Shaq is (was) down low? No, but can he develop into that, without even bulking up? Absolutely. I think that's what Skiles is hinting at in interviews and pushing for in practice.

if you cant play high post basketball without a jumpshot .. then why did Skiles just say after the game that andrew is a " GREAT HIGH POST PLAYER " ... one would think if having a jumpshot was so crucial to being a high post player , that by andrew not having one at all , that theirs no way in hell ANYONE could say andrew is a high post player ... it just doesnt make sense .. hmmm maybe because theirs other things you can do from the high post besides shoot the jumper ?????????



and im sorry youre once again wrong in your assesment of bogut .. the problem isnt the shot in the low post , he does fine when he shoots its ( hence the high % ) .. the problem for andrew is his inability to get that position , or his inability to read the double team quickly ( teams are having a good amount of succsess at getting turnovers from andrew or forcing poor passes that allow them to recover defensivly ) .... so no , i disagree completly .. andrews touch down there is nice , the problem is he just cant get the position conistantly , read the double team , and " feel " the defender on his back .. .


all of his problems down there imo tie back to the central theme , the problem is andrew likes to see the game with his eyes . ..he likes to face the game , he likes to think the game .. which is exactally why skiles said tonight " andrew is a great high post player , and just a good low post player " .

[BDUB_30]

well thats the mentality i was specificaly talking about " he shouldnt of been playing if he was injured " ..thats kind of irrelevant ...the bottom line was , he was playing and he was injured .

I guess this is where we differ. For me, the bottom line was, he was playing, and he was playing horribly.
.

well i agree , he had ALOT of bad games early on ... but the diffrence in my perspective is i felt it was more due to the injuries and being on a new team , learning a new offense .. so i didnt rush to judge ridnour and make statements like " STEVE BLACK 2 ' .. or ... " THIS TRADE SUCKS " ..etc etc .

i just felt he needed to get healthy , learn the system ... it appears as if the problem wasnt ridnour the player , but the outside factors ( injuries , new team ) .

[bigkurty]

If you in fact agree with Skiles that Bogut is a great high post player. Imagine how great he would be in the high post if he did have a jump shot as a threat too. He would definitely be better.

[paul]

I thought Bogut played fairly well for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th. I don't know if he took one too many hits and his back locked up or what, but while he was still moving his feet well, he was standing almost straight up and just reaching for rebounds.

When we went to him a few times late in the game he was a little slow to make his move, but when he made it, he was clearly looking to pass and it seemed like our spacing was awful and we were all clustered between the weakside low block (where nobody should have been) and the weakside three point line. Luke was up around the top of the key, but with no passing lane. It was ugly. It's fine that Bogut can't get around Millsap, but he shouldn't be getting pushed out to 15 feet or beyond by him, Malone-like as he may be. Something was not right. We've seen Bogut stonewall Dwight Howard in the low post, so strength is not the issue... maybe conditioning, maybe his back.

Yeah I have to agree emunney, even though he got a lot of boards he didn't seem able to be nearly as aggressive in jumping at them as he has been the rest of the season. He also winced noticeably several times on camera and seemed slow on most movements including getting up very slowly when he hit the deck a few times. We know from his blog that the back is still a big issue for him so the fact that he has still been able to contribute pretty well for us over the past few games instead of sitting on the sidelines I see as a major positive.

Just on the Skiles comments - Bogut has clearly been our most productive player thus far this season yet I'd say Skiles has made more 'motivational' type comments about him than anyone else on the team, certainly that we've heard on here anyway. It's just a theory but I do wonder if Skiles thinks he might have a pretty special player on his hands if he can just keep push push pushing him along. I have no problem with that as long as it's done the right way.