Bucks Jazz Postgame

[BDUB_30]

If you in fact agree with Skiles that Bogut is a great high post player. Imagine how great he would be in the high post if he did have a jump shot as a threat too. He would definitely be better.

he would be a true tripple threat .. .

ability to shoot
ability to dribble
ability to pass.


i would of had him working that jumper day 1 .. not working on baby hooks , and building mass , trying to learn dropsteps , etc etc .... they drafted a sports car and tried to turn it into a truck ... he is at heart a finesee player , not a banger .


playing a banging style he is average or above .. as a finesee player , he would of been exceptional.

[RayRayJones]

if you cant play high post basketball without a jumpshot .. then why did Skiles just say after the game that andrew is a " GREAT HIGH POST PLAYER " ... one would think if having a jumpshot was so crucial to being a high post player , that by andrew not having one at all , that theirs no way in hell ANYONE could say andrew is a high post player ... it just doesnt make sense .. hmmm maybe because theirs other things you can do from the high post besides shoot the jumper ?????????



and im sorry youre once again wrong in your assesment of bogut .. the problem isnt the shot in the low post , he does fine when he shoots its ( hence the high % ) .. the problem for andrew is his inability to get that position , or his inability to read the double team quickly ( teams are having a good amount of succsess at getting turnovers from andrew or forcing poor passes that allow them to recover defensivly ) .... so no , i disagree completly .. andrews touch down there is nice , the problem is he just cant get the position conistantly , read the double team , and " feel " the defender on his back .. .


all of his problems down there imo tie back to the central theme , the problem is andrew likes to see the game with his eyes . ..he likes to face the game , he likes to think the game .. which is exactally why skiles said tonight " andrew is a great high post player , and just a good low post player " .

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself in the fullest. What I was getting at was that we cannot have a #1 option be a 7 footer who plays the high post. I didn't say that he isn't a great high post player or that he can't. I'm simply saying our #1 option cannot be a high post center. I likely wasn't very clear on that, sorry.

Your 2nd paragraph there is basically what I'm saying. You described exactly what post presence is. Post presence, to me, is being able to catch the ball in the post and do something effective with it. That's a very broad and loose definition, but is basically what you're saying, be it catching it deeper or passing out of it. The fact of developing a 'signature shot' is something that would help him along in doing so. Kareem had the sky hook if he got into trouble against a defender, Bogut needs to develop something the same (even whether that just be a "no look" pass to where he almost always knows where someone will be) or something similar that he knows mentally will get him out of the situation.

And if that's been described as a problem by the coaching staff (which I don't quite think it has) and something they see then he'll be working on that. I hear people on this board say similar things like that, but I really disagree. Does Bogut think too much when he's in the post? Absolutely. Does it affect some of his possessions, sure. I wouldn't quite say it pertains so much to his eyes as you seem to think as his mind and even part of his confidence. And if so, then it's something he needs to work on. Like I said, if Bogut wants to be a top center in this league, he can't be one-dimensional.

[bigkurty]

I'd say Skiles has made more 'motivational' type comments about him than anyone else on the team, certainly that we've heard on here anyway. It's just a theory but I do wonder if Skiles thinks he might have a pretty special player on his hands if he can just keep push push pushing him along. I have no problem with that as long as it's done the right way.

You know I think you might have something here. That makes a lot of sense. Bogut is a hard guy to read a lot and motivating him to be consistent and achieve his perceived potential has been a challenge for all of his coaches thus far. I hope Skiles can do it.

[bigkurty]

If you in fact agree with Skiles that Bogut is a great high post player. Imagine how great he would be in the high post if he did have a jump shot as a threat too. He would definitely be better.

he would be a true tripple threat .. .

ability to shoot
ability to dribble
ability to pass.


i would of had him working that jumper day 1 .. not working on baby hooks , and building mass , trying to learn dropsteps , etc etc .... they drafted a sports car and tried to turn it into a truck ... he is at heart a finesee player , not a banger .

playing a banging style he is average or above .. as a finesee player , he would of been exceptional.

I agree. He is still young and most big men become better bangers as they mature and get into their later 20's anyway. Sure there are some who just get it right away but Bogut is not that guy. He has been worked a lot from the high post throughout his career thus far but I can't believe they just let him abandon the jumper he had when he was in college or even when he was at the olympics this past summer. I almost think that Skiles should start yelling at him to shoot when he gets open looks from the high post. If anything, they should have him work a lot on 10-15 foot jumpers because with that, he could become an elite high post player.

[BDUB_30]

if you cant play high post basketball without a jumpshot .. then why did Skiles just say after the game that andrew is a " GREAT HIGH POST PLAYER " ... one would think if having a jumpshot was so crucial to being a high post player , that by andrew not having one at all , that theirs no way in hell ANYONE could say andrew is a high post player ... it just doesnt make sense .. hmmm maybe because theirs other things you can do from the high post besides shoot the jumper ?????????



and im sorry youre once again wrong in your assesment of bogut .. the problem isnt the shot in the low post , he does fine when he shoots its ( hence the high % ) .. the problem for andrew is his inability to get that position , or his inability to read the double team quickly ( teams are having a good amount of succsess at getting turnovers from andrew or forcing poor passes that allow them to recover defensivly ) .... so no , i disagree completly .. andrews touch down there is nice , the problem is he just cant get the position conistantly , read the double team , and " feel " the defender on his back .. .


all of his problems down there imo tie back to the central theme , the problem is andrew likes to see the game with his eyes . ..he likes to face the game , he likes to think the game .. which is exactally why skiles said tonight " andrew is a great high post player , and just a good low post player " .

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself in the fullest. What I was getting at was that we cannot have a #1 option be a 7 footer who plays the high post. I didn't say that he isn't a great high post player or that he can't. I'm simply saying our #1 option cannot be a high post center. I likely wasn't very clear on that, sorry.

Your 2nd paragraph there is basically what I'm saying. You described exactly what post presence is. Post presence, to me, is being able to catch the ball in the post and do something effective with it. That's a very broad and loose definition, but is basically what you're saying, be it catching it deeper or passing out of it. The fact of developing a 'signature shot' is something that would help him along in doing so. Kareem had the sky hook if he got into trouble against a defender, Bogut needs to develop something the same (even whether that just be a "no look" pass to where he almost always knows where someone will be) or something similar that he knows mentally will get him out of the situation.

And if that's been described as a problem by the coaching staff (which I don't quite think it has) and something they see then he'll be working on that. I hear people on this board say similar things like that, but I really disagree. Does Bogut think too much when he's in the post? Absolutely. Does it affect some of his possessions, sure. I wouldn't quite say it pertains so much to his eyes as you seem to think as his mind and even part of his confidence. And if so, then it's something he needs to work on. Like I said, if Bogut wants to be a top center in this league, he can't be one-dimensional.

i agree with all of that , but why does andrew need to be the #1 option ?... i just think he should be another option for the offense , kind of like he is now .. hes not the #1 option . If he was moved to the high post more , it doesnt mean he has to be the #1 option .. In the process , he would free up the paint more for guys like rj /redd /cv/ sessions / ridnour to go to the paint . which would make our entire team better .


with that being said , i do agree with kurty's point that obviously it takes awhile for a 5 in this leauge ... im not saying it can never work for bogut down in the lowbox .. He could and most likely will continue to improve down there . That kind of assessment really couldnt be made by a fan , in regards to how far he is and what exactaly does he need to do to get better , and if that progress is being made . If skiles /hammond feel he can do it , then they should continue ..but if they dont , if theirs some doubts there ... they need to move andrew out of the low box asap, i think it would benift everyone on this roster and andrew as well .

[bayrdbandit]

great to gather another win. go bucks.

god to know redd, rj and bogut can have ordinary/bad games and we can still scratch out a win. that's very very positive.

we're a team without a star player and i think redd is slowly starting to notice this. we're a team (not unlike pistons teams of past) that will not have a single standout player, but a core group that will all come together to make a difference.

redd's shot was awol tonight and it was horrible to watch. i still don't get why we apparently need a pure shooter, when he is about as pure a shooter as they come. it's a pity he has a dud shooting night. that of course doesn't make him a dud shooter.

redd's defense tonight was solid, great to see him in a defensive stance, low to the ground, eyes focused.

ridnour is ace. i love the guy. i've liked him since day one, i guess because my expectations were low. unlike a lot of people who seem to think everyone on our team needs to play as all-stars, ridnour hustles and plays with heart. that's what i want from all my bucks.

when bogut can have a quiet game and come away with 11 boards, shows his improvement. i think it's pretty clear that he's still not 100%. he looks like he's holding back. i cringe whenever he takes a charge. for anyone who questions his commitment to this team, you're not looking hard enough.

the prince is superb. championship teams have players like him. he's a keeper. let's look for another one. i wonder if his play is rubbing off on the others. everyone seems to be doing their bit on d.

milsap had 11 and 9. that's very low for his recent play. our defense is doing a stellar job.

if skiles wants to turn bogut into a more effective back to the basket low post player, then let him. in skiles i trust. bogut has enough skill to learn new tricks. he's a big boy, let him try.

[RayRayJones]

In regards to Bogut being the #1 option - I said that because he will be very soon. Redd and RJ are not in this team's long-term plan, Bogut is the only one so far (and will likely be followed up with Sessions and LRMAM) and right now and for the most part in the future, he will be the best option of those 3 in regards to offense, maybe Sessions will pass him up, maybe not.

My point being with this argument, what center would you consider on say the top 5 centers of all time are high post centers? I'd say none, going down with Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing. None of those were considered high post centers. Players like KG and Duncan (who I suppose if you really wanted could be called centers) are probably the two best high post centers in the league right now. Both have very good jumpers, I will admit that, but BOTH have even better post games. The amount of times you'll see Duncan post up and turn around and hit one off the glass is much greater than him taking an open jumpshot and the same for KG.

All I'm saying, is if Skiles is 'allocating' projects for Bogut, post presence (and offensive post moves) should be MUCH higher on the list than a jumpshot, RIGHT now.

[BDUB_30]

In regards to Bogut being the #1 option - I said that because he will be very soon. Redd and RJ are not in this team's long-term plan, Bogut is the only one so far (and will likely be followed up with Sessions and LRMAM) and right now and for the most part in the future, he will be the best option of those 3 in regards to offense, maybe Sessions will pass him up, maybe not.

My point being with this argument, what center would you consider on say the top 5 centers of all time are high post centers? I'd say none, going down with Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing. None of those were considered high post centers. Players like KG and Duncan (who I suppose if you really wanted could be called centers) are probably the two best high post centers in the league right now. Both have very good jumpers, I will admit that, but BOTH have even better post games. The amount of times you'll see Duncan post up and turn around and hit one off the glass is much greater than him taking an open jumpshot and the same for KG.

All I'm saying, is if Skiles is 'allocating' projects for Bogut, post presence (and offensive post moves) should be MUCH higher on the list than a jumpshot, RIGHT now.

i dont really agree with that ..

i dont imagine when 2011 comes around , we will just be letting redd / rj / gadzuric walk ...i imagine we will be trading those huge expirings to a team(S) with a stud who are looking to do a complete rebuild ...its not like were going to come up off that much salary and not find replacements .


i imagine their will be more then enough takers for those expirings who are just looking to completly revamp their roster ...those players could possibly be more suitied for a 1st option then bogut is or could be .

besides , the nba is evolving and has been for awhile ..some teams have a true first option ..and alot do not ...alot of teams just run offense and who gets looks out of that offense gets shots and it changes from night to night . the c's are a prime example of that ...they just play their ass off on defense , get some transition buckets and run solid half court sets .. who scores what / when / how is often times very random .. obviously guys that can create tend to get more looks but its not done by design or premeditated .. the bucks are like that now , their is no first option on this squad , they just run offense and who gets looks , takes them ..it may be cv one night , it may be redd the next , rj the following , sessions / bogut ..etc etc . ..i think the " first option " is old school 90's nba ball unless you truly have a dominate player ..meaning , kobe / lebron .

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I had relatively good seats for this game. It was insanely fun for me.

[paul]

I had relatively good seats for this game. It was insanely fun for me.

I saw the back of you and the good wife's heads based on GAD's description in the game thread adam. Those were some crazy seats, very jealous.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

The game ball's name was "ice."

[bigkurty]

I had relatively good seats for this game. It was insanely fun for me.

Congrats man. How cool is it to feel the bounce of the basketball in your feet? I loved that. I could see you on TV all game pretty much when they transitioned. The problem with those seats is that from now on the cheap seats will seem really really really cheap and crappy too.

[bigkurty]

The game ball's name was "ice."

Haha. How the heck did that photo happen? And I wonder why that was written on there. Of course both teams shot like it so it fits.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Ball rolled over to the kid next to me, and the ref asked him to hold it through the timeout. He was happy to let me take a photo. I'll post some more pics later on.

[beyond_the_arc]

Hah, I can clearly be seen sitting in my seat in the top photo you posted of Energee.

[wichmae]

wish I got out 10 earlier to meet you and Dan down there...


next time man.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

It was a passable game won only because of the loss of Mehmet Okur and Carlos Boozer ewho did not play. Had they been availible...

But there was a questionable lineup on the floor down the stretch for the Jazz by coach Jerry Sloan who should have had CJ Miles, and Ronnie Brewer on the floor more then he did!

He had some young legs on the bench for the entire 4th qtr. Very very poor coaching on his part having Harpring and even Korver and Koufous and anyone else on the floor then.

CJ Miles and Brewer were shutting Jefferson and Redd and Sessions down and he did not play them at all down the stretch and they started the game!? Highly 'questionable' by Sloan. Very unlike him.

The Bucks have lucked out and benefitted by playing teams on tough schedules and without their top stars due to injury just like they were complaining about such things going against them early
on.

But they looked good at times all moving as one knowing whehre the ball should be moved and where they were supposed to be. You can see some improvements...

Just goes to show you that things do even out as far as schedule and injuries. But the new offense looks really good and the Bucks are passing and moving and hustling very well.

The Bucks have had 'better teams' in recent years, but those better teams did not play as good as they are playing now which is a credit to this coaching staff. They still are a boring team to watch but winning never gets old...

I like this team perhaps less then any in the last 5 years, but finally they have some leadership and direction from the coach and not Redd, which is nice.

[trwi7]

Why are you taking pictures of the camera guy's ass?

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

In regards to Bogut being the #1 option - I said that because he will be very soon. Redd and RJ are not in this team's long-term plan, Bogut is the only one so far (and will likely be followed up with Sessions and LRMAM) and right now and for the most part in the future, he will be the best option of those 3 in regards to offense, maybe Sessions will pass him up, maybe not.

My point being with this argument, what center would you consider on say the top 5 centers of all time are high post centers? I'd say none, going down with Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing. None of those were considered high post centers. Players like KG and Duncan (who I suppose if you really wanted could be called centers) are probably the two best high post centers in the league right now. Both have very good jumpers, I will admit that, but BOTH have even better post games. The amount of times you'll see Duncan post up and turn around and hit one off the glass is much greater than him taking an open jumpshot and the same for KG.

All I'm saying, is if Skiles is 'allocating' projects for Bogut, post presence (and offensive post moves) should be MUCH higher on the list than a jumpshot, RIGHT now.

Bogut IS NOT NOR WILL EVER BE A #1 OPTION on this team...

Get that out of your head right now. It is not the way he is made. This team is a team that is now evolving and getting Redd away from that crap.

Both times he came down and jacked up shots out of the flow of the offense and the set Skiles sat his ass down as he should have!

You can't play dumb against the Jazz and not move the ball and iso with their defenders...

[trwi7]

Max Green is wearing a Santa hat and reading 'Twas the Night before Christmas in case any of you care.