Woelfel on trade rumors (Redd on block)

Post #41 » by **paulpressey25** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:02 pm

Nebula1 wrote:Press, you're going crazy. You'd rather have Kaman than Redd.... you'd rather have Terry and Dampier than Redd.... Now Crawford??

I'm not saying I'd do all those deals. I'm just looking for teams with big contract guys that the other team's might like to move. But yes, I'd take Kaman and Crawford for sure.

Neb, as we are debating in a couple threads, my question is whether or not you think Redd's game has declined. Three years ago when Redd was averaging 24ppg on 45% shooting I think you had a much stronger argument. Today though the stats show an 18/2.5/2 guy shooting 39%.

I think John Hollinger with ESPN nailed this thing with his preseason discussion of Redd (excerpts below)

2007-08 season: Redd had a disappointing campaign at both ends of the court, losing 3.5 points off his 40-minute scoring average while quickly converting an offseason vow to improve his defense into one of the year's emptiest promises. It wasn't any one category that killed Redd -- his numbers were just gently down across the board at the offensive end, leaving one to wonder if he had simply lost a half-step at age 28.....

Scouting report: You rarely see Redd getting beat on defense, but that's because he's rarely guarding anyone who can play. He basically coasts at that end, usually guarding an inferior offensive player and virtually never offering help from the weak side. The Bucks allowed 4.6 points per 48 minutes more with him on the court, and he drew only six offensive fouls in 2,700 minutes......

......The bigger question is how much defending he'll do now that the demanding Scott Skiles is in charge in Brewtown. It's unlikely Redd will be able to slack off the whole game the way he has the past couple years, and that may sap some of his energy at the offensive end.

power4wardjinx · Post #42 » by **power4wardjinx** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:05 pm

Oklahoma City: Lots of interesting stuff there. Chris Wilcox, Damien Wilkins, Joe Smith. Makes more sense with Redd than whatever Woelfel was brainstorming r.e. Lue and Charlie V.

Nebula1 · Post #43 » by **Nebula1** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:08 pm

I think Redd had an ankle injury early and played all summer and has started the season slow. He's a little down, but by no means do you trade him based on that. That's just really, really bad business.

Hollinger is a stats fool. He's probably not even picked up a basketball in years, if ever. Oh nevermind, I forgot about his extensive career in the NBA.

Redd is definitely an asset and our best asset for a long time now. You don't move a guy who has given the franchise everything because he's come out of the gates under his 10th coach slowly. The season is still young.

Post #44 » by **paulpressey25** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:16 pm

power4wardjinx wrote:Oklahoma City: Lots of interesting stuff there. Chris Wilcox, Damien Wilkins, Joe Smith. Makes more sense with Redd than whatever Woelfel was brainstorming r.e. Lue and Charlie V.

I didn't list OKC under the assumption that team was in a total rebuild and wouldn't want to blow so much salary on a guy like Redd who wouldn't do much for them. Doesn't he get in the way of Durant and Westbrook who they want to be their scorers?

Plus we'd have to learn what type of revenue stream OKC has. They may need a cheap payroll now or think they can use their massive cap room this summer for a FA.

Redd for Collison, Donyell Marshall and say Damien Wilkins would work under the cap. I'd do that one if it were my only option.

Epicurus · Post #45 » by **Epicurus** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:33 pm

Did someone sober say Terry and Dampier for Redd? Only if the Mavs were not sober. Terry gives the Mavs everything they would get from Redd and Dampier is their best rebounder and excellent in some matchups. I like Redd as a player far more than many here, but his performance value doesn't come close to the combined contributions of Terry and Dampier.

power4wardjinx · Post #46 » by **power4wardjinx** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:45 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
power4wardjinx wrote:Oklahoma City: Lots of interesting stuff there. Chris Wilcox, Damien Wilkins, Joe Smith. Makes more sense with Redd than whatever Woelfel was brainstorming r.e. Lue and Charlie V.

I didn't list OKC under the assumption that team was in a total rebuild and wouldn't want to blow so much salary on a guy like Redd who wouldn't do much for them. Doesn't he get in the way of Durant and Westbrook who they want to be their scorers?

Plus we'd have to learn what type of revenue stream OKC has. They may need a cheap payroll now or think they can use their massive cap room this summer for a FA.

Redd for Collison, Donyell Marshall and say Damien Wilkins would work under the cap. I'd do that one if it were my only option.

Hard to say what they're doing down there, except that they don't do anything very well at all. Redd would have to play 2nd banana to Durant but they could use a veteran scoring option to balance things out. It might be an interesting mix for them, w/ Westbrook at point, which is where he's playing now, Durant and Redd on the wings, Green and the big men in the frontcourt.

They do have all of those big men now that they've signed Krstic ... We could use somebody like Collison or Wilcox, take a couple of those other players off their hands. Redd would essentially be their free agent acquisition.

REDDzone · Post #47 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:51 pm

His performance doesn't even come close to Terry's ALONE. And Terry makes around 10 million a year.

REDDzone · Post #48 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:06 pm

Redd is top 30 in the NBA in FGA's per game. (26)

Redd is barely TOP 300 in FG%. (297)

Killing. Our. Team.

Point being: Its possible that he's already un-movable at this point.

jerrod · Post #49 » by **jerrod** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:08 pm

Nebula1 wrote:Hollinger is a stats fool. He's probably not even picked up a basketball in years, if ever. Oh nevermind, I forgot about his extensive career in the NBA.

oh no, someone's criticizing redd!!!! better attack the respected nba writer's credentials with old stats = wrong argument

Nebula1 wrote:Redd is definitely an asset and our best asset for a long time now. You don't move a guy who has given the franchise everything because he's come out of the gates under his 10th coach slowly. The season is still young.

if he's our best asset, this is a far bleaker situation than i thought

BDUB_30 · Post #50 » by **BDUB_30** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:35 pm

Nebula1 wrote:
You don't move a guy who has given the franchise everything because he's come out of the gates under his 10th coach slowly. The season is still young.

this is just flat out disturbing ...

emunney · Post #51 » by **emunney** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:48 pm

Epicurus wrote:Did someone sober say Terry and Dampier for Redd? Only if the Mavs were not sober. Terry gives the Mavs everything they would get from Redd and Dampier is their best rebounder and excellent in some matchups. I like Redd as a player far more than many here, but his performance value doesn't come close to the combined contributions of Terry and Dampier.

Epi, it's amazing to me that a man as learned as yourself would make the assumption that anybody on a Milwaukee Bucks board would be sober. The smartest of us are by necessity the most drunk.

jeremyd236 · Post #52 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:09 pm

REDDzone wrote:Redd is top 30 in the NBA in FGA's per game. (26)

Redd is barely TOP 300 in FG%. (297)

Killing. Our. Team.

Point being: Its possible that he's already un-movable at this point.

Look I know Redd has been bad this year, and I know you want to look intelligent by using stats to prove how much you hate the guy....

But do you realize what you just posted? Top 30 in the NBA in FGA/game? No ****. There's 30 teams in the NBA....I'd bet that around 26 teams have a player in the top 30 in FGA/game. He's our leading scorer and he takes the most shots per game on our team. I'd only make sense that he's top 30 in the league, thanks.

Top 300 in FG%? Do you realize how stupid that stat is? Clearly there are no "minimum requirements" when it comes to shot attempts in your top 300 FG% list. A guy can come in and shoot one shot the entire season, make it, and he'd be the best in the league. You get that right?

Redd is shooting terribly this year, and efficiency is supposed to be the reason he is good. I understand this. But don't use stupid stats that don't mean anything. Try comparing his FG% to other starting SGs around the league. Or compare his FG% to other leading scorers in the league. I think that makes more sense.

emunney · Post #53 » by **emunney** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:12 pm

So, jeremy, if you take out all those guys who are 1 for 1, where would Redd rank FG%? Top 10? Top 20? Top 100? Top 200? Top 250?

Feel free to apply whatever minimum requirements you want, then come back with where Redd stacks up. Jocker.

jeremyd236 · Post #54 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:15 pm

emunney wrote:So, jeremy, if you take out all those guys who are 1 for 1, where would Redd rank FG%? Top 10? Top 20? Top 100? Top 200? Top 250?

Feel free to apply whatever minimum requirements you want, then come back with where Redd stacks up. Jocker.

Read beyond the first thing I say, honestly. I said I KNOW Redd is shooting poorly. I KNOW he isn't top 10 or whatever the hell you think I'm saying.

But use stats that actually make sense. Comparing him to other starting SGs or other leading scorers in the league WOULD STILL INDICATE that he's shooting badly. I'm sorry I didn't directly say this in my first post, I thought maybe you could pick up on that based on saying "I know Redd is shooting poorly", but I guess not.

EDIT: If you want, I can quote my first post and bold the parts where it makes it obvious that I feel he is doing poorly this year. I think the first sentence of the last paragraph is a good start though

Joana · Post #55 » by **Joana** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:18 pm

REDDzone wrote:Redd is top 30 in the NBA in FGA's per game. (26)

Redd is barely TOP 300 in FG%. (297)

Killing. Our. Team.

Point being: Its possible that he's already un-movable at this point.

Oh, now I'm panicking!

Just out of curiosity, what's your current opinion on the pg situation? Do you still think Sessions is by far the better player and should be starting?

Nebula1 wrote: You don't move a guy who has given the franchise everything because he's come out of the gates under his 10th coach slowly. The season is still young.

Well, the franchise has been paying him his salary, no?

-----

People need to calm down. Either we get a good offer for Redd or we shouldn't trade him because the chances of getting a good offer increase as long as his contract gets smaller.

RayRayJones · Post #56 » by **RayRayJones** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:18 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
REDDzone wrote:Redd is top 30 in the NBA in FGA's per game. (26)

Redd is barely TOP 300 in FG%. (297)

Killing. Our. Team.

Point being: Its possible that he's already un-movable at this point.

Redd is shooting terribly this year, and efficiency is supposed to be the reason he is good. I understand this. But don't use stupid stats that don't mean anything. Try comparing his FG% to other starting SGs around the league. Or compare his FG% to other leading scorers in the league. I think that makes more sense.

59th in the NBA in FG% for SG's alone.

For SG's averaging over 10PPG, Redd has the 2nd worst FG%.

edit: The first stat (to say he's 59th) is a minimum of 10 games played.

jeremyd236 · Post #57 » by **jeremyd236** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:22 pm

RayRayJones wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:
REDDzone wrote:Redd is top 30 in the NBA in FGA's per game. (26)

Redd is barely TOP 300 in FG%. (297)

Killing. Our. Team.

Point being: Its possible that he's already un-movable at this point.

Redd is shooting terribly this year, and efficiency is supposed to be the reason he is good. I understand this. But don't use stupid stats that don't mean anything. Try comparing his FG% to other starting SGs around the league. Or compare his FG% to other leading scorers in the league. I think that makes more sense.

59th in the NBA in FG% for SG's alone.

For SG's averaging over 10PPG, Redd has the 2nd worst FG%.

See, now your second stat makes more sense. The first one does not for the reason I already stated about having no minimum shots taken, etc.

But either way, we'll trade Redd if we get a good offer. Hammond isn't going to give him away for nothing just because he's shooting poorly this year. He's not going to trade Redd for Wilcox +fillers just because he's shooting 40% in under 20 games played.

EDIT: saw your edit, got it

REDDzone · Post #58 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:42 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:Look I know Redd has been bad this year, and I know you want to look intelligent by using stats to prove how much you hate the guy....

I want to look intelligent by supporting my conclusions? Better than looking stupid by not backing up any of the crap I say. And I don't use stats to extend hate towards him, you have it backwards. I dislike Redd BECAUSE HE ISN'T PRODUCING FOR THIS TEAM (and the stats back that).

But do you realize what you just posted? Top 30 in the NBA in FGA/game? No ****. There's 30 teams in the NBA....I'd bet that around 26 teams have a player in the top 30 in FGA/game. He's our leading scorer and he takes the most shots per game on our team. I'd only make sense that he's top 30 in the league, thanks.

Ahhh the good ole' PPG argument with absolutely no consideration for efficiency. Allen Iverson must be one of the best players of all time in your opinion, eh?

Top 300 in FG%? Do you realize how stupid that stat is? Clearly there are no "minimum requirements" when it comes to shot attempts in your top 300 FG% list. A guy can come in and shoot one shot the entire season, make it, and he'd be the best in the league. You get that right?

Yep. I gave the results I researched in about two seconds. Did I say the results were qualified in any way? I honestly wasn't trying to deceive people if that's what you thought. But Redd's fg% has been horrible even if you only look at shooting guards. Killing us.

Redd is shooting terribly this year, and efficiency is supposed to be the reason he is good. I understand this. But don't use stupid stats that don't mean anything. Try comparing his FG% to other starting SGs around the league. Or compare his FG% to other leading scorers in the league. I think that makes more sense.

How about don't presume to tell me what to post or what not to post? Read what you want to read, comment on what you want to comment on, or ignore me. I offer my contributions to this forum, and you either appreciate it or you don't.

aboveAverage · Post #59 » by **aboveAverage** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:44 pm

I just think he sucks and should be traded. No stats needed.

REDDzone · Post #60 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:49 pm

Joana wrote:Just out of curiosity, what's your current opinion on the pg situation? Do you still think Sessions is by far the better player and should be starting?

Nope, I think Ramon is a solid contributor but we have been winning with Ridnour, and he has been shooting well above his career average of late. His play has been spectacular and I have acknowledged that.

When Ridnour isn't killing us from the field, he is a producer for this team. He does a little of everything and I am among those who believe that his defense is quite underrated on this forum. He isn't some type of stopper, but he is pesky at the VERY LEAST (or maybe I'm just so used to horrible defensive PG's that even effort out of that position defensively causes me to be content?)

All in all, I think Ridnour's fg% will end up right around his career average, and we will see how he is doing, and how the team is doing then. I don't think I was wrong at the beginning of the season to criticize LR, he WAS horrible, but admittedly I was incorrect about his fg% finally getting back to the mean. There had been nothing in the first 15ish games of this season and the entirety of last season to lead me to believe he could get back to previous levels.

But he has, and I am very happy to see it.