Woelfel on trade rumors (Redd on block)

[emunney]

Read beyond the first thing I say, honestly. I said I KNOW Redd is shooting poorly. I KNOW he isn't top 10 or whatever the hell you think I'm saying.

But use stats that actually make sense. Comparing him to other starting SGs or other leading scorers in the league WOULD STILL INDICATE that he's shooting badly. I'm sorry I didn't directly say this in my first post, I thought maybe you could pick up on that based on saying "I know Redd is shooting poorly", but I guess not.

EDIT: If you want, I can quote my first post and bold the parts where it makes it obvious that I feel he is doing poorly this year. I think the first sentence of the last paragraph is a good start though

Are you familiar with the term "splitting hairs"? And don't say yes just because you're want to look intelligent.

You agree that he's shooting terribly, but the fact that he's 297th in FG% doesn't support that?

How?

[jeremyd236]

Because you have no idea how many people have played in the NBA thus far this season. And if you do, you don't show that in your stat. Do you know how many guys take like 1 or 2 shots total in an NBA season? I'd hope that they shoot a higher % than Redd because they aren't shooting as much. And chances are if they are scrubs who are constantly being waived, etc. then the shots they are getting are wide open looks because no team is going to respect their game.

[jeremyd236]

And is there any validity to the Redd/Gadz for TMac rumor going around here? Or is that something our board just made up?

I don't see why the Rockets do that....T-Mac's been having a down season but even IF Redd was as good as T-Mac, they have to take Gadzuric and his contract.

[Octopus Jonny]

Thank the Good Lord we have Damon Jones back.

I know I'm late to the party on posting that, in addition to being completely shocked that I would ever utter such garbage. But, for real, we absolutely need what he brings to the table in terms of loosing up that ratchet and letting it fly. NOBODY on this team has shown to be even a threat from deep. I have never in my years seen a team miss so many wide open triples in one game, let alone nearly half the season.

Skiles needs to feed Bogut a little more. Our constant cries for an inside presence would be answered quickly with #6 being called a few more times every game. Notice how as soon as Bogut went out last night the Pistons ripped us up on the boards?

If we trade anybody, we need to be sure we're getting some sort of jump shooter and someone else that can help grab boards and alter shots when Bogut is sitting. (consistently, which automatically omits Gadz, Elson, ...Allen...ugh, most painful player to watch in the whole league that gets the minutes he does?) Our current bevy of unreliable backup big men should most certainly be on the market and at least one of them needs to be moved (preferably Elson, who doesn't seem to like his role here).

[Octopus Jonny]

Also, Chris Mihm and his spaghetti noodle ankles is FAR from the answer. Plus, we'd lose one of our only players that has hit from 3 this season.

[emunney]

Because you have no idea how many people have played in the NBA thus far this season.

No idea? 30 teams, 15 max player per roster. We can make an inference.

And if you do, you don't show that in your stat. Do you know how many guys take like 1 or 2 shots total in an NBA season? I'd hope that they shoot a higher % than Redd because they aren't shooting as much.

If it's a bad player, and he takes only one shot, he's more likely to miss it than make it. So he'd be behind Redd. Besides, there simply are not very many of those guys. You could vastly overshoot and call it 10% of the guys in the league, and Redd would still be at 267th, so you're whole "stupid stat that means nothing" thesis is out the window regardless.

And chances are if they are scrubs who are constantly being waived, etc. then the shots they are getting are wide open looks because no team is going to respect their game.

Why don't you compile a list of these scrubs who are constantly getting waived and find out how they shoot? They are getting waived for a reason, and it's not because they're knocking down every open jumper and usurping Redd's ranking.

[trwi7]

39.7%. That's really all you need to know. We give a ton of crap to Ridnour for his shooting and he's shooting 1.5% better than Max. And at least Ridnour does something other than scoring.

[REDDzone]

39.7%

Elite.

[aboveAverage]

And it's those wide open threes that he misses that just kills us. We work so hard to create an open shot for him, and then he misses open three after open three. That's unacceptable for a "great" shooter.

[More Bang For The Bucks]

wait and see, Hammond will have to to move Redd to Clev or Orlando for cap space, younger players, and/or a first. Who will give up more for a shot at knocking off Boston? I say Clev, it's now, next year, or never. Some of you will want to puke if it happens but I can't see getting more than something like Serbiaks expiring deal, Hickson, and a first.

[trwi7]

I can't see getting more than something like Serbiaks expiring deal, Hickson, and a first.

There's no way we get that much from any team and if we do, Hammond's a genius.

[jr lucosa]

I can't see getting more than something like Serbiaks expiring deal, Hickson, and a first.

There's no way we get that much from any team and if we do, Hammond's a genius.

Yeah maybe if were the ones giving up the first, otherwise no way.

[Joana]

Just out of curiosity, what's your current opinion on the pg situation? Do you still think Sessions is by far the better player and should be starting?

Nope, I think Ramon is a solid contributor but we have been winning with Ridnour, and he has been shooting well above his career average of late. His play has been spectacular and I have acknowledged that.

When Ridnour isn't killing us from the field, he is a producer for this team. He does a little of everything and I am among those who believe that his defense is quite underrated on this forum. He isn't some type of stopper, but he is pesky at the VERY LEAST (or maybe I'm just so used to horrible defensive PG's that even effort out of that position defensively causes me to be content?)

All in all, I think Ridnour's fg% will end up right around his career average, and we will see how he is doing, and how the team is doing then. I don't think I was wrong at the beginning of the season to criticize LR, he WAS horrible, but admittedly I was incorrect about his fg% finally getting back to the mean. There had been nothing in the first 15ish games of this season and the entirety of last season to lead me to believe he could get back to previous levels.

But he has, and I am very happy to see it.

He was exactly the same player he is now. The only difference was that his shots were falling at an even lower rate than usual. You were wrong.

Of course there was, I wrote a post on that: his shot selection was good, his form wasn't different than it was during his all career , he wasn't missing shots left and right... why would you expect to his shooting efficiency to decline so deeply from an already bad year?

The thing is that it's not reasonable to expect steep declines on the shooting efficiency of players for no big reason. It can happen, but it's an oddity.

[lawrybeard]

Just out of curiosity, what's your current opinion on the pg situation? Do you still think Sessions is by far the better player and should be starting?

Nope, I think Ramon is a solid contributor but we have been winning with Ridnour, and he has been shooting well above his career average of late. His play has been spectacular and I have acknowledged that.

When Ridnour isn't killing us from the field, he is a producer for this team. He does a little of everything and I am among those who believe that his defense is quite underrated on this forum. He isn't some type of stopper, but he is pesky at the VERY LEAST (or maybe I'm just so used to horrible defensive PG's that even effort out of that position defensively causes me to be content?)

All in all, I think Ridnour's fg% will end up right around his career average, and we will see how he is doing, and how the team is doing then. I don't think I was wrong at the beginning of the season to criticize LR, he WAS horrible, but admittedly I was incorrect about his fg% finally getting back to the mean. There had been nothing in the first 15ish games of this season and the entirety of last season to lead me to believe he could get back to previous levels.

But he has, and I am very happy to see it.

He was exactly the same player he is now. The only difference was that his shots were falling at an even lower rate than usual. You were wrong.

Of course there was, I wrote a post on that: his shot selection was good, his form wasn't different than it was during his all career , he wasn't missing shots left and right... why would you expect to his shooting efficiency to decline so deeply from an already bad year?

The thing is that it's not reasonable to expect steep declines on the shooting efficiency of players for no big reason. It can happen, but it's an oddity.

While I agree he's taking the same quality shots, I think the main reason his clip was so poor in the early season was due to his back.

[REDDzone]

He was exactly the same player he is now. The only difference was that his shots were falling at an even lower rate than usual. You were wrong.

I was wrong to point out that Ridnour shooting 37% or whatever was bad for the team? Are you serious?

Do you think he was good for the team then? I hadn't followed Ridnour's career before the Bucks, so how was I to know how his form looked or anything?

Ridnour sucked the first 15ish games of the season, bottom line. Now that he's producing, I have done nothing but praise him.

"The only difference is that his shots were dropping at a lower rate than usual."

Sweet, I guess from that perspective we have no right to criticize Redd, right? Because he's still the same player (a liability in every aspect of the game), but his shots are dropping at a lower percentage.

The fact of the matter is that you can't just blow off something huge like field goal efficiency as "the only difference" when that is a huge, huge part of the game.

If Ridnour continued shooting in the mid-late 30% from the field, I would still be calling for Ramo to start, and if he reverts back to that, I'll be calling for it again.

ETA: LR shot 39% last year, and the vast majority of this season he was shooting something crazy bad like 37-38%. I understand your point about players rarely just regressing randomly, however, how long do slumps normally last?

[Joana]

He was exactly the same player he is now. The only difference was that his shots were falling at an even lower rate than usual. You were wrong.

I was wrong to point out that Ridnour shooting 37% or whatever was bad for the team? Are you serious?

No, you were wrong by saying that Sessions was much better, that Ridnour should be benched, that he was an horrific player, etc. To sum it up, you were wrong by drawing too many conclusions from a very small sample of a single aspect of a player's game. Every time a player shoots badly that's bad for the team; however coaches can't just sitting every body who has bad shooting periods - as long as it's only a slump.

I hadn't followed Ridnour's career before the Bucks, so how was I to know how his form looked or anything?

One shouldn't talk about players that one doesn't even know.

Ridnour sucked the first 15ish games of the season, bottom line. Now that he's producing, I have done nothing but praise him.

As I said at that time, he was playing decently - for his standards, that aren't exactly great -, but his shooting was crappy. What was reasonable to expect was his shooting eff. to regress to the mean. That's what happened.

Sweet, I guess from that perspective we have no right to criticize Redd, right? Because he's still the same player (a liability in every aspect of the game), but his shots are dropping at a lower percentage. The fact of the matter is that you can't just blow off something huge like field goal efficiency as "the only difference" when that is a huge, huge part of the game.

You are wrong when you implicitly don't recognize that the size of sample regarding Redd's shooting eff. is too small to allow sound conclusions, especially considering he's coming back from injury. If you believe he won't improve his numbers, alright, but that's not the reasonable thing to expect.

[paulpressey25]

If you believe he won't improve his numbers, alright, but that's not the reasonable thing to expect.

I'm not sure he will improve his numbers. His numbers from 2, 3 and 4 seasons ago were a result of him not having to play defense nor pass. And the entire offense was designed around having people set screens for Redd to get him open for shots.

He's now a couple years older, maybe a half-step slower and the team is no longer geared to having him be the primary scorer at all times he's on the court.

[REDDzone]

No, you were wrong by saying that Sessions was much better, that Ridnour should be benched, that he was an horrific player, etc. To sum it up, you were wrong by drawing too many conclusions from a very small sample of a single aspect of a player's game. Every time a player shoots badly that's bad for the team; however coaches can't just sitting every body who has bad shooting periods - as long as it's only a slump.

A year and 15-20 games is quite a long time for a slump, no? And thanks for calling only me out when half the board was going crazy over Ridnour, by the way.

One shouldn't talk about players that one doesn't even know.

I knew he was killing my team with inefficient shooting, so I have every right to criticize him for that.

As I said at that time, he was playing decently - for his standards, that aren't exactly great -, but his shooting was crappy. What was reasonable to expect was his shooting eff. to regress to the mean. That's what happened.

Talk about small sample sizes, he has been shooting well for even less time than he was shooting poorly. Let's see how he is shooting a few more games from now. He has been shooting 45-45% a lot lately, if he regresses back to his career average of 40%, that isn't going to be good, and he will deserve criticism again.

You are wrong when you implicitly don't recognize that the size of sample regarding Redd's shooting eff. is too small to allow sound conclusions, especially considering he's coming back from injury. If you believe he won't improve his numbers, alright, but that's not the reasonable thing to expect.

Nah, never said Redd won't improve upon his numbers. Bottom line is, in the meantime, if he keeps randomly shooting 2-12, 4-13, whatever for whatever, by the time his fg% gets back to the mean, this team could be buried.

Redd gets criticized because he is a max contract player who can do ONE thing well - score. When he isn't doing that, not only is he not helping his team, he is HURTING us significantly because he just keeps launching shots and missing. There are a lot of reasons I want Redd gone, and I'll continue to criticize him until he improves or is traded.

Again, to be clear, never said Redd wouldn't improve his fg%, but if you don't expect me to bitch after our "elite" scorer is officially shooting below 40% on the season, you should probably put me on ignore. When he does well, he will get praise from me.

Calling a player out for sucking over a specific period of time, and then praising them when they do well is not flip flopping or being wrong, its calling it as I see it.

[unklchuk]

I'm not sure he will improve his numbers. His numbers from 2, 3 and 4 seasons ago were a result of him not having to play defense nor pass. And the entire offense was designed around having people set screens for Redd to get him open for shots.

He's now a couple years older, maybe a half-step slower and the team is no longer geared to having him be the primary scorer at all times he's on the court.

My take would be that he's trying to realign his game. Some games I think he's making progress. Other games he struggles.

You point out the negatives. I think it's a positive that (if he accepts the coaching he's getting) he won't have to carry so heavy a load, won't have to do it all himself. To me, that makes it more manageable.

If his commitment is real and continuing, I'd say it's fair to expect him to go through the transition and come out basically whole and productive. Think that's not assured, but more likely than any other outcome.

(I'm also OK with trading him if it helps the team.)

[Badgerlander]

I had really hoped before the RJ trade went thru and Boguts contract, etc, that we would just trade the whole team for draft picks, Mo, Redd, Bogut, Yi, CV, and just start over young with lots of picks in a deep draft. The RJ trade though peaked my interest that we could win now maybe with CV in a contract year. I just don't see us getting good younger talent by making trades during the season, maybe it will happen but I think salary dumps are easier. The Landry rumor at least gives me hope that we are targeting player that are outplaying their contract.