College players thread/ Draft Related thread

[PeeDee]

What I'm saying is with his recent mega drop off the stat sheet, he prolly won't declare.

[revprodeji]

with the strength of next years draft at pg I doubt he stays put.

if we are lucky maybe holiday drops to the miami pick?

my view is a good team needs 8-9 quality people. right now we have how many?

al? love? maybe foye? whether it is as a starter or a bench guy foye is a keeper. how about brewer? guess we find out next year. what about miller? bassy as a backup?

fact is we know we need at least one more big, one more pg and one more wing. I could care less if a guy is called a starter or bench he will get 20+ if he is one of those top 8.

[jgozalb]

Best Young Euro Player of 2008

.1. Ricky Rubio (ESP)
.2. Danilo Gallinari (ITA)
.3. Kosta Koufos (USA)
.4. Omri Casspi (ISR)
.5. Milan Macvan (SRB)
.6. Vladimir Dasic (SRB)
.7. Donatas Motiejunas(LIT)
.8. Enes Kanter (TUR)
.9. Tomas Satoransky (CZE)
10. Nikos Pappas (GRE)

What is your source? I think Motiejunas could be a player at this level. You seem to know a bit about euro-ball, could you share some thoughts on Pekovic? (*who I am surprised is not on your list, but considered pretty universally as a top-3 euro prospect)

its not my choice, its an anually given award. Ricky has won 2 years in a row
What I really want the people to know about Ricky is that he is no that bad shooting, now he has recovered from his injure is averagin more than 13 points a game in less tahn 25 minutes.
Here PG work in a different way, they dont expect them to score 20 point per game, but they do expect from them to be real court and team leaders.
Another difference with euro players is that as the young stars reach the first team they are not supposed to shoot a lot but only to learn to play the game, thats why young euros are usually not very good shooters. In the USA HS players are the team stars and get impressive stat lines but most of them (for not to say all of them) have very little of basketball knowledge

The final point is, dont measure Ricky for his shooting abilities, because shooting if one thing you can learn, but BBIQ and court vision is something almost impossible to do so.

Sorry for my bad english hope I made myself clear.

[Devilzsidewalk]

with the strength of next years draft at pg I doubt he stays put.

if we are lucky maybe holiday drops to the miami pick?

my view is a good team needs 8-9 quality people. right now we have how many?

al? love? maybe foye? whether it is as a starter or a bench guy foye is a keeper. how about brewer? guess we find out next year. what about miller? bassy as a backup?

fact is we know we need at least one more big, one more pg and one more wing. I could care less if a guy is called a starter or bench he will get 20+ if he is one of those top 8.

we already have a bunch of rotation quality guys, we need a star and we can't afford to spend a top 7 pick on a 8 man rotation quality player, he has to be a star. Jrue Holiday hasn't shown any sign of being anything resembling a future star.

[revprodeji]

that sounds all nice and good but other than rubio and maybe griffin there is no stars in this draft. holiday likely has the same chance as anyone and his tool box looks great.

[jgozalb]

Best Young Euro Player of 2008

.1. Ricky Rubio (ESP)
.2. Danilo Gallinari (ITA)
.3. Kosta Koufos (USA)
.4. Omri Casspi (ISR)
.5. Milan Macvan (SRB)
.6. Vladimir Dasic (SRB)
.7. Donatas Motiejunas(LIT)
.8. Enes Kanter (TUR)
.9. Tomas Satoransky (CZE)
10. Nikos Pappas (GRE)

What is your source? I think Motiejunas could be a player at this level. You seem to know a bit about euro-ball, could you share some thoughts on Pekovic? (*who I am surprised is not on your list, but considered pretty universally as a top-3 euro prospect)

here is my source

http://www.fibaeurope.com/coid_QKmtv2Pa ... tpage.html

[revprodeji]

Thank you sir, Pekovic is better than the majority of those players, why is he not on the list? Is it only for people under 20?

You seem to have a good grasp on euroball. What do you think of Pekovic?


(**btw, anyone see the Uconn press conf? Coach is my hero)

[revprodeji]

Jrue=Poo

Seriously though, you can't ignore numbers all the time. And with the numbers Jrue has been putting up he probably won't declare. At this point, unless he blows people away in the workouts/interviews, I wouldn't be surprised to see his draft stock drop drastically almost guaranteeing that he returns to UCLA next year.

Draftexpress from Feb 17
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jrue-Holiday-1108/

With our last update to his player profile coming just a month ago, there isn’t a great deal of new information to report on Holiday at this time. His scoring rate has dropped a bit while his passing stats look much better, as it’s become increasingly clear that Holiday looks much more comfortable in a lead-guard role where he can handle the ball and make decisions as his team’s playmaker. With Darren Collison being the senior and leader of this team and clearly one of the best point guards in the country, we’ll probably have to wait until next year to see Holiday’s true potential at the collegiate level, if he’s to return.

Even though he’s become even less of a factor as a scorer recently, Holiday has done a terrific job showing his extremely high basketball IQ and outstanding passing skills. His court vision and creativity for making plays is very advanced for his age, and the patience and effectiveness he shows running the pick and roll definitely leaves a lot of optimism for the future, as he plays the game at a very unique pace. Holiday is obviously unselfish to a fault right now, sometimes looking too tentative and thinking too much, but as his comfort level grows within UCLA’s offense, he should get even better.

The part of his game that looks the most concerning might be his perimeter stroke, which continues not to fall for him. He’s shooting just 30% from beyond the arc on nearly three attempts per game. He’s been equally streaky off the dribble as he is in catch and shoot situations, although he can obviously make both. Holiday is barely getting to the free throw line still, going seven games already this season without a single attempt, although he is hitting the ones he does take a little bit better now. With that said, he hits an outstanding 61% of his 2-point attempts, which ranks him tops amongst all point guards that category

Defensively, Holiday is still one of the best guards in college basketball, as he showed in the very difficult matchup he had with James Harden. He did a great job limiting him as much as possible off the dribble, moving his feet intelligently and showing great timing. Harden had a very good game in his own right, but the 8 turnovers he committed definitely stands out in the box score, and tells you quite a bit about the peskiness that Holiday brings to the table as a defender.

It will be very interesting to see if Holiday decides to test the NBA draft waters, as he doesn’t look like the prototypical “one and done “candidate, and also probably hasn’t produced the type of per-game stats to be considering such a move. Digging deeper in the numbers, though, you realize that his production as a freshman compares favorably with Russell Westbrook’s numbers as a sophomore, which obviously didn’t preclude him from being drafted fourth overall (and looking like an incredible talent early on). Holiday would probably benefit from playing another season of college basketball, and may want to leave much more of a legacy at UCLA than the fleeting glance we’ve gotten at him thus far, but he probably would be a lottery pick regardless if he decided to enter.

[revprodeji]

nobody here still wants Jrue Holiday more than Evans right? Ok good, just checking.

I still see Holiday as a real pg and Evans as a prospect who might never be a pg.
Holiday is miles away of Evans a defender.
I think Holiday has a much higher BBIQ and even if he projects as a role player he will be much more valuable than Evans. I just do not see Evans as a starting NBA pg. His decision making is horrible sometimes. It would take him at least 2 years behind a decent vet to learn the spot.

Feb 19t article on DX about Evans.

A mid-season position change that seems to have changed the complexion of his team's season is certainly a good enough reason to revisit the topic of one of the NCAA's most talented freshman. Tyreke Evans was asked to handle the point guard duties for Memphis full-time after a home loss to Syracuse that dropped his team out the top-25 for the first time in over three years, and his team is undefeated since. They are currently ranked 5th overall in the nation, and Evans in turn is gaining steam for being awarded national freshman of the year honors.

It's not quite clear why analysts (or his coaching staff for that matter) are so surprised at the success he's found at the point—it was after all the only position we've ever saw him play from watching him in high school, prep school and the AAU circuit over the last three years. Clearly he is not “learning the position from scratch” like many have suggested.

Playing on the ball full-time, Evans has improved his efficiency while developing into the #1 scorer in this freshman class—putting up a terrific 23 points per-40 minutes pace adjusted. He also ranks as one of the top rebounding guards in college basketball, pulling down over 7 per-40, and is also one of the top ball-thieves at 3.1 steals per-40. His productivity in those categories is terrific all things considered. The problem is that he's almost amongst the NCAA leaders in field goal attempts and turnovers (at a dismal 4.5 per-40), highlighting one of his biggest flaws—his shoot-first mentality.

It's pretty obvious what Evans offers as a prospect, as he's one of the premier shot-creators in the country, despite being only 19 years old. His combination of strength, aggressiveness and scoring instincts is almost unparalleled at this level, and should translate to the NBA level effectively when you consider his terrific footwork, body control, and hesitation moves. He does an excellent job pushing the ball up the floor in transition, can create (and finish) with either hand almost equally as well, and is an absolute bulldozer slashing his way through the paint and creating contact at the rim. While not an incredible leaper, Evans knows how to get to the free throw line, which helps minimize the fact that he's not an incredible finisher percentage wise (just 50%). He's also become pretty effective at finding teammates off the dribble, which has helped him rack up a decent amount of assists.

Defensively, Evans has gotten better as the season has moved on, particularly on the ball. His terrific wingspan helps him tremendously in terms of contesting shots on the perimeter, and his excellent knack for getting in the passing lanes makes him a true nuisance with the way Memphis likes to press. Evans loses his focus from time to time in the half-court and tends to get out of his stance, also not doing a great job fighting through ball-screens. His potential on this end is impressive, though, and it wouldn't be shocking to see him be able to defend both guard positions in the NBA when it's all said and done.

As a point guard, Evans has been mostly a mixed bag. On one hand, he obviously possesses excellent basketball instincts and has a great sense for making plays for himself and others. Memphis is running a lot more pick and roll than they did last season, and Evans shows great potential in this area. The problem is that he's an incredibly ball-dominant point guard, often looking like a fish out of water when he's forced to give up the rock for more than a few seconds. Memphis' offense often looks quite stagnant, with Evans over-dribbling the ball at the top of the key as his four teammates stand around and twiddle their thumbs. He can be pretty sloppy with the ball at times, displaying questionable decision-making skills and incredibly poor shot-selection, which wouldn't be as much of an issue if he was able to make shots at a respectable rate from the perimeter.

With his poor shooting mechanics (he fades away unnecessarily on every attempt) Evans is very streaky with his feet set in catch and shoot situations, and downright dreadful shooting the ball off the dribble. He only converts a dismal 25% of his jump-shots according to Synergy Sports Technology, but the problem is that he settles for them on a regular basis—they make up about 40% of his possessions, often with a hand in his face and early in the shot clock no less. While his skill-set may develop in time, Evans' mentality looks extremely questionable—it's hard not to come away with the impression that he's a pretty selfish player. He's likely going to have to revamp his shooting stroke entirely if he's to ever become even a decent threat from the NBA 3-point line, something he's been unwilling to do up until this point.

There a couple of crucial judgments which will be made individually by each and every NBA team that will play a huge role in where Evans' draft stock ultimately lies. The first would be his likely position at the next level, point guard or shooting guard. The second would be whether he projects as a starter or backup at that position. The third would be whether he fits into what that team already possesses in terms of ball-handlers and outside shooters, as Evans clearly won't fit into every system. It would be very difficult to play him alongside another guard who is also not much of a threat from beyond the arc, as that would make things very easy on the defense. With the right teammates, though, and in a sparkplug/instant offense role, Evans could be very effective.

If Memphis is able to go on a deep run into the tournament, it wouldn't be shocking at all to see Evans' stock rise dramatically when it's all said and done.

[Devilzsidewalk]

nobody here still wants Jrue Holiday more than Evans right? Ok good, just checking.

I still see Holiday as a real pg and Evans as a prospect who might never be a pg.
Holiday is miles away of Evans a defender.
I think Holiday has a much higher BBIQ and even if he projects as a role player he will be much more valuable than Evans. I just do not see Evans as a starting NBA pg. His decision making is horrible sometimes. It would take him at least 2 years behind a decent vet to learn the spot.

I don't think anybody sees Evans as a starting NBA PG, he's a SG.

[jgozalb]

Thank you sir, Pekovic is better than the majority of those players, why is he not on the list? Is it only for people under 20?

You seem to have a good grasp on euroball. What do you think of Pekovic?


(**btw, anyone see the Uconn press conf? Coach is my hero)

mmm pekovic is a fine player for his age, but i dont think he has a very high ceiling on his game. I dont think he is a very good defender and he will be worse in the NBA because of his lateral speed.
Poor court vision and BBIQ.

[revprodeji]

Ok, call me nuts..(**cues everyone to call him nuts)

Here is what I see/want in the draft as of today.

If Rubio is there we grab him and run. No questions asked. He is the only franchise player in this draft.
After that we have a choice with Harden (*if he is tall enough, I worry his size is an issue) or Thabeast.

This is something I thought I would never say, but I would lean towards TheBeast. I have been one of his biggest doubters but I think he could fit the 30+min 3rd big man role between Love and Al perfectly. Allowing different flexability as well as having a great rotation at a spot many teams lack strength.

I know that 1-center--1 wing and 1-pg is our weak spots. But I can handle waiting on pg until the miami pick. Because after Rubio there is almost no seperation in Holiday, evans, Collison, Curry, etc. We could still get a decent pg with the miami pick.

I agree with Devil that we need a star, but there really is not one in this draft. Our "star" will come with FA or more likely by trading our expirings. In the mean time lets grab A Thabeast and a Holiday/pg and go with that team. I think those improvements would offer a lot for this team.

[revprodeji]

I don't think anybody sees Evans as a starting NBA PG, he's a SG.

But he looked undraftable as a sg and was not on anyone's draft board until he switched to pg. He is useless without the ball in his hands. His draft status is based on being a large pg. (*which I worry he can do) This is why I worry about him as a prospect.

[Devilzsidewalk]

I don't know what you mean, Evans has been playing well all year long and he has as much or more star potential as anybody in the draft.

[revprodeji]

Evans looked horrible as a sg. It was not until he switched to the pg that he started to excel. His "potential" is found at that position. But he still faces the mental and fundamental issues.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tyreke-Evans-1110/

read thru the articles on him.
I think the Jamal crawford reference might be perfect for him.

December 24, 2008

One of the most talented and highly touted players in this freshman class, Tyreke Evans' college career hasn't gotten off to the best start. Despite putting up strong production across the board (1st on team in points and steals, 2nd in assists, 3rd in rebounds), Evans' inefficiency has been incredibly alarming, with a TS% of 47%, second worst in his class among players with 20 minutes or more. Also, his worst shooting nights on the season (a combined 14-for-49) came in Memphis' three matchups with ranked opponents, all for losses.Looking back at some of the scouting reports on Evans compiled on this website, the concerns with Evans' game have been well-known for some time. Despite being an outstanding athlete with excellent skills, there have always been red flags about how Evans would convert those abilities into a productive team player.

Here is a more recent article after the switch to pg. (whole article is above)

A mid-season position change that seems to have changed the complexion of his team's season is certainly a good enough reason to revisit the topic of one of the NCAA's most talented freshman. Tyreke Evans was asked to handle the point guard duties for Memphis full-time after a home loss to Syracuse that dropped his team out the top-25 for the first time in over three years, and his team is undefeated since. They are currently ranked 5th overall in the nation, and Evans in turn is gaining steam for being awarded national freshman of the year honors.
It's not quite clear why analysts (or his coaching staff for that matter) are so surprised at the success he's found at the point—it was after all the only position we've ever saw him play from watching him in high school, prep school and the AAU circuit over the last three years. Clearly he is not “learning the position from scratch” like many have suggested.
Playing on the ball full-time, Evans has improved his efficiency while developing into the #1 scorer in this freshman class—putting up a terrific 23 points per-40 minutes pace adjusted. He also ranks as one of the top rebounding guards in college basketball, pulling down over 7 per-40, and is also one of the top ball-thieves at 3.1 steals per-40. His productivity in those categories is terrific all things considered. The problem is that he's almost amongst the NCAA leaders in field goal attempts and turnovers (at a dismal 4.5 per-40), highlighting one of his biggest flaws—his shoot-first mentality.

He has tools, yes. But he screams huge amounts of bust potential. I think that bust potential is fatalistically higher if you move him to the sg. Maybe I can get excited for him as a prospect when Tyreke has a productive and efficient game, either off or on the ball, against legit competition. Look at his numbers when Memphis faced Xavier, Georgetown, Syracuse, even Cincinnati and Seton Hall. Any decent high-major team that the Tigers have played has yielded dreadful stat lines from Evans.
The fact that he can run offense in C-USA does not shock me, nor does his recent uptick in efficiency. The watered-down competition is going embellish his averages.
Until Tyreke can perform at an elite level against elite competition, I can't see him as more than a career loser complementary starting combo guard. I see a bit of Crawford, Salmons and Mashburn in him, with just a pinch of Ricky Davis.

[Devilzsidewalk]

bottom line for me is that there are a small handful of basketball players in the world that have the ball-handling to get to the rim and the size/athleticism/body control to finish inside and I think Evans can be one of them. Most guys get to the NBA and it's just not possible for them to do that, but Evans has the tools.

The fact that he's as productive as he is without a great jumpshot makes him all the more intriguing to me because once his hones his jumper, he's going to be 100% unstoppable. Plus he plays defense, I'm not seeing a downside.

Think of all those end of the game must-score possessions where you could potentially clear out for Evans and he'll create from scratch and get into the paint and finish and draw fouls. What's Holiday going to do, pass it to Foye for a prayer 3-ball? Evans is a rare commodity, personally I'd have a hard time passing him up except under very rare circumstances. His skills seem right in line with the perimeter players from championship teams - he can create offense better than anybody else in the draft with the possible exception of Harden.

[hotshotschamp]

I've seen at least 5 games of each player.

Tyreke Evans is a MUCH better player than Jrue Holliday, and has way more star potential and has all the tools in the world to be a big time player.

Holiday reaks of a solid defender average at best player to me. I'd take him with Miami pick but hell no on the first pick.

Not sure I'd even take Evans with our first pick, other guys id rank ahead.

[revprodeji]

I really like your first paragraph, and that is a tool that is very, very important. My only issue is that even with that ability he tends to pull up for his fade shot most of the time. He seems to be selfish and has numerous mental mistakes. So we would be drafting him with the hope that he could learn the position behind Bassy for a year or 2?

Imagine this draft.

Our pick--Thabeast
Mia pick--T.Evans
Bos pick--Austin Daye (*coming off his ACL injury, hardly talked about but I like him a lot. Similar to Donte Green from last year,but more of an all-around game.)

I would be very excited for that. We would have 3 young prospects that would need time to learn, but they would fit needs and gamestyle. What you think Devil?

[hotshotschamp]

WIth our first pick...

I want .... one of these 4 guys..... Griffin is just that good, u figure out what to do with him later, trade or trade someone else.

Griffin
Harden
Monroe
Rubio

Miami pick

Steph Curry, Tyreke Evans, Eric Maynor, Cole Aldrich, Dajuan Summers, derozan, patty mills

Boston pick

Terrence Williams, Ty lawson, sam young, jodie meeks, jerell mcneal

[Devilzsidewalk]

I like Thabeet, it'd be really hard to pass up a 7'3 guy w/ athleticism and a nice little bit of attitude to boot, but I probably wouldn't start considering him until about the 5th pick. For the picks in the 20s, I'm liking Vasquez a lot, though yesterday's amazing game had a lot to do with that. A 6'7" true point guard with a good outside shot and seems to have solid quickness. Lawson is a beast finishing inside too and his quickness is off the charts. Collison is the other PG I'm interested in as seems to have no weaknesses besides his slight frame - albeit that's a considerable weakness considering how slight of frame it is.

Otherwise I'm into athletic small forwards. Sam Young, Tyler Smith, Summers, James. Terrence Williams is the wildcard.


PS I harassed some UCLA fans about Jrue Holiday to get their opinion on him and that lots of Wolves fans are interested in him. Got a few responses so far, general consensus I'm getting is that he has great court vision..... good defender against PGs, but not enough size to defend NBA SGs..... probably not worth a top 7 pick this upcoming draft, but maybe since the draft is supposedly weak he might be.....has solid athleticism, but not Westbrook athleticism, so don't compare him to that type of potential....most players look better playing under Coach Howland at UCLA, but Holiday might look better in the isolation oriented NBA.....doesn't have Kidd's physical stature, but has the same cerebral approach to the game


if that's accurate, then he could be a good fit, but we'd probably need an upper echelon scorer at SF; I don't think Foye would provide enough offense on the perimeter. Some UCLA fans are really disappointed in him though.