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Stocks in a vacuum don't tell much of a story. The league has been littered with guys who get great steal or block numbers because they gamble and/or don't play sound defense. A steal is great. What is less great is when you give up a handful of easy baskets because you didn't get the steal.

I wish they tracked how often a player completely bails on a shot or drive because his defender stopped him cold in his tracks. Gobert is the mast at that.

gandlogo wrote:

TimberKat wrote:

gandlogo wrote:
Draymond is biased, an idiot, and 100% correct about this. At best Gobert is third behind Wemby and AD.

I don't see how you can give the defensive player of the year award to a player on a team that won 22 games. Did his defense really changed the outcome of many games? Davis has been good but Lakers (like SAS) also give up a lot of points too. They may even be even or slightly better individual defenders but Gobert wins this year with his overall impact.

The award is for defensive player of the year. Not who is on the better team. Wemby is by far the single most disruptive defensive force in the league - and it's not even close. What AD brings is the actual ability to guard players farther than two feet from the basket.

Because "stocks" are all the rage, Wemby is at 4.82/game and AD is 3.55. Hell, Holmgren is third, Lopez is fifth, and SGA is sixth - those three won a lot of games. All ahead of Gobert at ninth. There is greater difference between Wemby and AD in per game stocks than there is between Holmgren and the next 40 players. That is how ridiculously dominant Wemby was this season.

The best defensive players sacrifice blocks and steals in order to both contest/deter shots AND grab the rebound.

Tim Duncan is the posterchild of this.

This is a nice article from Rudy:
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/rudy-gobert-nba-basketball-minnesota-timberwolves

Dalvin wrote:This is a nice article from Rudy:
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/rudy-gobert-nba-basketball-minnesota-timberwolves

Horrible the racism that he faced.

Thanks for posting that link, Dalvin.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Rudy Gobert has moved into the Top 10 of all-time Win Shares in a Timberwolves uniform. He sits 9th on the list at 19.5 WS.

1. Kevin Garnett 139.8 WS
2. Karl-Anthony Towns 75.0 WS
3. Kevin Love 47.0 WS
4. Wally Szczerbiak 41.0 WS
5. Sam Mitchell 32.9 WS
6. Gorgui Dieng 26.5 WS
7. Ricky Rubio 26.4 WS
8. Terrell Brandon 23.1 WS
9. Rudy Gobert 19.5 WS
10. Tom Gugliotta 19.0 WS
11. Christian Laettner 19.0 WS
12. Nikola Pekovic 18.8 WS

Note: Anthony Edwards is not far behind at 16.5 WS, as well as Naz Reid at 15.0 WS.

Klomp wrote:I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Rudy Gobert has moved into the Top 10 of all-time Win Shares in a Timberwolves uniform. He sits 9th on the list at 19.5 WS.

1. Kevin Garnett 139.8 WS
2. Karl-Anthony Towns 75.0 WS
3. Kevin Love 47.0 WS
4. Wally Szczerbiak 41.0 WS
5. Sam Mitchell 32.9 WS
6. Gorgui Dieng 26.5 WS
7. Ricky Rubio 26.4 WS
8. Terrell Brandon 23.1 WS
9. Rudy Gobert 19.5 WS
10. Tom Gugliotta 19.0 WS
11. Christian Laettner 19.0 WS
12. Nikola Pekovic 18.8 WS

Note: Anthony Edwards is not far behind at 16.5 WS, as well as Naz Reid at 15.0 WS.

Feels weird pek is so low. Feels like he was here a while and was good the whole time. I guess he was injured a lot

guest81 wrote:Feels weird pek is so low. Feels like he was here a while and was good the whole time. I guess he was injured a lot

One of 13 players to be on the roster in 6 or more seasons.
-19th in career games played
-19th in career points scored (32nd in points averaged)
-24th in career minutes played (63rd in minutes averaged)

Just to put your points into numerical context.

guest81 wrote:

Klomp wrote:I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Rudy Gobert has moved into the Top 10 of all-time Win Shares in a Timberwolves uniform. He sits 9th on the list at 19.5 WS.

1. Kevin Garnett 139.8 WS
2. Karl-Anthony Towns 75.0 WS
3. Kevin Love 47.0 WS
4. Wally Szczerbiak 41.0 WS
5. Sam Mitchell 32.9 WS
6. Gorgui Dieng 26.5 WS
7. Ricky Rubio 26.4 WS
8. Terrell Brandon 23.1 WS
9. Rudy Gobert 19.5 WS
10. Tom Gugliotta 19.0 WS
11. Christian Laettner 19.0 WS
12. Nikola Pekovic 18.8 WS

Note: Anthony Edwards is not far behind at 16.5 WS, as well as Naz Reid at 15.0 WS.

Feels weird pek is so low. Feels like he was here a while and was good the whole time. I guess he was injured a lot

Yeah. He played 6 years for us, but really just over 3 years of actual games.

And 25% of his career games were in his rookie season - where he wasn't good at all.

Interesting! I was curious, so I went and looked how many games played each of these players has played.

Klomp wrote:970. 1. Kevin Garnett 139.8 WS
573. 2. Karl-Anthony Towns 75.0 WS
364. 3. Kevin Love 47.0 WS
438. 4. Wally Szczerbiak 41.0 WS
757. 5. Sam Mitchell 32.9 WS
498. 6. Gorgui Dieng 26.5 WS
421. 7. Ricky Rubio 26.4 WS
202. 8. Terrell Brandon 23.1 WS
146. 9. Rudy Gobert 19.5 WS
231. 10. Tom Gugliotta 19.0 WS
276. 11. Christian Laettner 19.0 WS
271. 12. Nikola Pekovic 18.8 WS

Note: Anthony Edwards is not far behind at 16.5 WS (302), as well as Naz Reid at 15.0 WS (326).

I was also curious about WS/48 MIN

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. Rudy Gobert .197
2. Kevin Love .189
3. Kevin Garnett* .185
4. Karl-Anthony Towns .185
5. Fred Hoiberg .177
6. Sam Cassell .175
7. Mike Conley .175
8. Terrell Brandon .157
9. Jarred Vanderbilt .145
10. Wally Szczerbiak .134

In 2021, Lore and ARod claimed they put a lot of value in Win Shares, and those “analytics” led them to Gobert. I don’t consider the stat “analytics,” and while I’ve been a bigger Gobert fan than most and I’m happy we have them, I always thought the Lore statement probably wasn’t quite true. If MIN were using a lot of assets to make a big splash trade in 2021, the overwhelming factor would be: the star player wanted to be in Minnesota, and wouldn’t bail at the first opportunity. I think that was a very short list, maybe only Gobert, and once we got Rudy, Lore probably looked for stats to justify trading so much for him.

While Rudy was never my first option to man the middle, I've grown to respect his game after watching him regularly. It just seems like players and ppl in the league just don't like him. I don't understand the hate as it seems unwarranted. Unless he's done things in-game or behind the scenes that we're not privy to.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/demarcus-cousins-explains-how-rudy-gobert-shouldn-t-win-the-dpoy-award-because-he-doesn-t-finish-games/ar-BB1lKdIC?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=c9a60901c65542ae8f65ff0724cce7f8&ei=20

Asking Boogie Cousins who should win DPOY?!?! That’s like asking me who is the best female poet.

Neither of us has any experience to come close to offering an opinion. But at least I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut.

shrink wrote:Asking Boogie Cousins who should win DPOY?!?! That’s like asking me who is the best female poet.

Neither of us has any experience to come close to offering an opinion. But at least I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut.

Best female poet would be Raquel Welch, Deborah Harry, Madonna, Mariah Carey, Shakira, and Taylor Swift. Whatever they say sounds so beautiful and touching. I am sure that is along the line of thinking Boogie had for DPOY.

shrink wrote:Asking Boogie Cousins who should win DPOY?!?! That’s like asking me who is the best female poet.

Neither of us has any experience to come close to offering an opinion. But at least I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut.

Dude what? He played in the NBA for atleast 5 seasons and specifically against Rudy a number of times as well as a bunch of other centers. He's definitely entitled to his opinion more than you are.

I'm not saying he's right, but he has a lot closer of a view than you.

Have you played professionally? Or in the NBA? Or against Rudy? Did you start games and end them against him? No? Okay then.

Note30 wrote:

shrink wrote:Asking Boogie Cousins who should win DPOY?!?! That’s like asking me who is the best female poet.

Neither of us has any experience to come close to offering an opinion. But at least I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut.

Dude what? He played in the NBA for atleast 5 seasons and specifically against Rudy a number of times as well as a bunch of other centers. He's definitely entitled to his opinion more than you are.

I'm not saying he's right, but he has a lot closer of a view than you.

Have you played professionally? Or in the NBA? Or against Rudy? Did you start games and end them against him? No? Okay then.

I think any of us have played as much NBA defense as Boogie. Namely, zero. It would be like asking Trae Young to characterize the best defensive guards in the league. He doesn’t do any of the things that a defensive guard does.

Now if they asked about offense, then he’d be more reputable.

shrink wrote:

Note30 wrote:

shrink wrote:Asking Boogie Cousins who should win DPOY?!?! That’s like asking me who is the best female poet.

Neither of us has any experience to come close to offering an opinion. But at least I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut.

Dude what? He played in the NBA for atleast 5 seasons and specifically against Rudy a number of times as well as a bunch of other centers. He's definitely entitled to his opinion more than you are.

I'm not saying he's right, but he has a lot closer of a view than you.

Have you played professionally? Or in the NBA? Or against Rudy? Did you start games and end them against him? No? Okay then.

I think any of us have played as much NBA defense as Boogie. Namely, zero.

Look up Dunning Kruger or Plato's cave. Do you honestly believe what you are saying?

Do you know the skill and knowledge gap between you and Boogie? It's probably the same as the wealth gap between you and a billionaire. I genuinely don't understand people who think that they somehow have a barometer for basketball sense because they watch it compared to playing it.

Not that it matters but Boogie was a passable defensive player in Sacramento.

But even if he wasn't, if you put Boogie in his prime in any other league that was not the NBA (China, Europe, Australia), he would have been DPOY and MVP.

There are maybe less than 8,000 players in the world that play semi-professional to professional ball. The NBA has 350 of those 8,000. The best 350.

To make it to the professional league you have to be on atleast a D3 college team as a starter, more so as a star. Do you know the percentages of this? The sheer level of talent and skill it takes to get there? Do you understand the amount of work and time and effort it even takes to get to college?

Do you understand how uninformed your statement is or the level of who you are espousing?

It’s a joke.

Note30 wrote:

shrink wrote:

Note30 wrote:
Dude what? He played in the NBA for atleast 5 seasons and specifically against Rudy a number of times as well as a bunch of other centers. He's definitely entitled to his opinion more than you are.

I'm not saying he's right, but he has a lot closer of a view than you.

Have you played professionally? Or in the NBA? Or against Rudy? Did you start games and end them against him? No? Okay then.

I think any of us have played as much NBA defense as Boogie. Namely, zero.

Look up Dunning Kruger or Plato's cave. Do you honestly believe what you are saying?

Do you know the skill and knowledge gap between you and Boogie? It's probably the same as the wealth gap between you and a billionaire. I genuinely don't understand people who think that they somehow have a barometer for basketball sense because they watch it compared to playing it.

Not that it matters but Boogie was a passable defensive player in Sacramento.

But even if he wasn't, if you put Boogie in his prime in any other league that was not the NBA (China, Europe, Australia), he would have been DPOY and MVP.

There are maybe less than 8,000 players in the world that play semi-professional to professional ball. The NBA has 350 of those 8,000. The best 350.

To make it to the professional league you have to be on atleast a D3 college team as a starter, more so as a star. Do you know the percentages of this? The sheer level of talent and skill it takes to get there? Do you understand the amount of work and time and effort it even takes to get to college?

Do you understand how uninformed your statement is or the level of who you are espousing?

Interesting that we use Dunning-Kruger and Plato's cave to describe anything we read on RealGM. How do you know Boogie is not in Plato's Cavs when it comes to defense? Just because some can perform anything at a high level doesn't mean they know how it should be done and understood it. I can make a lot of stuff out of shadows without knowing reality. I don't know anything about basketball but can get lucky and get some stuff right. The real point is I don't trust Boogie's judgement and there is a million one ways to say that.

I would also add that someone in direct opposition should be a valid opinion to regard, but understanding there might be biases along the way.

Is Derek Jeter qualified to differentiate between Pedro Martinez and Jose Lima even though he never threw a pitch in the pros? Is Warren Sapp allowed to speak to how good of a lineman Randall McDaniel was?

TimberKat wrote:

Note30 wrote:

shrink wrote:I think any of us have played as much NBA defense as Boogie. Namely, zero.

Look up Dunning Kruger or Plato's cave. Do you honestly believe what you are saying?

Do you know the skill and knowledge gap between you and Boogie? It's probably the same as the wealth gap between you and a billionaire. I genuinely don't understand people who think that they somehow have a barometer for basketball sense because they watch it compared to playing it.

Not that it matters but Boogie was a passable defensive player in Sacramento.

But even if he wasn't, if you put Boogie in his prime in any other league that was not the NBA (China, Europe, Australia), he would have been DPOY and MVP.

There are maybe less than 8,000 players in the world that play semi-professional to professional ball. The NBA has 350 of those 8,000. The best 350.

To make it to the professional league you have to be on atleast a D3 college team as a starter, more so as a star. Do you know the percentages of this? The sheer level of talent and skill it takes to get there? Do you understand the amount of work and time and effort it even takes to get to college?

Do you understand how uninformed your statement is or the level of who you are espousing?

Just because some can perform anything at a high level doesn't mean they know how it should be done and understood it.

...what kind of cognitive dissonance is this?

Klomp wrote:I would also add that someone in direct opposition should be a valid opinion to regard, but understanding there might be biases along the way.

Is Derek Jeter qualified to differentiate between Pedro Martinez and Jose Lima even though he never threw a pitch in the pros? Is Warren Sapp allowed to speak to how good of a lineman Randall McDaniel was?

He definitely is qualified to talk about it. Definitely more so than someone on Baseball RealGM. He may not have the best opinion but he played against pitchers and hit balls pitchers threw. I know **** all about baseball, but I'm not going to discredit someone who has made it their career and for all means did so at the highest levels of competition.