RealGM

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:33 am**

Ok I think it's time to start talking about it. After 27 games, the team still doesn't show that they have an idea of the game, defensive mechanisms and offensive fluidity. We don't have a soul and an identity. And in my opinion many of these things (if not all) depend on the ability of the coach and his staff to pass it on to the players. Not to mention the way to manage the game...now pathetic at times especially in the management of TO.

Guys, we're too ugly to be true, let's be serious.

If we took the names off the shirts we could say we were playing with a vintage starting five like that:

Telfair Foye Snyder Gomes Jefferson

but is not! The team is good even if obviously (as in almost all teams) something is missing to be perfect. But a team that starts with Russell Edwards McDaniels KAT Gobert can't suck like this. Good players come off the bench (we are deep this year). What the heck is missing? the handle is missing!

The first alarm bells came last year and we all saw how both the team and Finch threw a series against Memphis that could be won. With the trade for Rudy we have effectively mortgaged our future but in my opinion Finch is not able to lead a team that has the ambition to become important (contender?) within one / two / three years. Before it's too late, in my opinion, we should look for a new Head Coach.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:56 am**

The Memphis series was fully explainable, this was the first time that a young team experienced a long Playoff series. There are going to be growing pains. Calling that a "choke" as a lower seeded team is not accurate.

This season has been a mess for a myriad of reasons, Coach Finch is one of many problems. Frankly, the timeout from two games ago was legitimately inexcusable. That said, when you look at the roster overall, there are a lot of problems that are difficult to solve beyond just punting a coach.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:18 am**

TwolvesFanRome wrote:Ok I think it's time to start talking about it.

Bro, relax. It is a long season. Towns, TP and JMac are out. Finch has made a few questionable decisions, but whole team has been through myriad of problems, issues. But. DLo looks better, KA is very good, Ant has showed some good defense, TP before injury was very efficient, we are feeding Gobert more, and he has been moving better now, jumping higher and catching difficult passes.

Our G-League team is balling, Minott is an all around comboforward, Garza is top scorer in gleague, Dozier is healthy, Mudiay has been playing well, Moore has showed why he is first round pick.

It might be lowest point of the season, but imagine this team when they are fully healthy, with deep roster and more discipline and execution.

P.S. La pazienza e' virtù :wink:

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:46 pm**

I don't think firing him magically solves our issues. Yes he isn't perfect, but is there someone better?

As someone else said, we're down 3 key contributors, one being our best player. It helps that the west is clogged together, if we can tread water and get healthy maybe we can make a run. Gobert, dlo, slomo have been play very well lately. Let's hope Kat plays better once he's back.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:25 pm**

lol

This thread is hilarious. Things aren't going as planned--fire the head coach!

Reasons this isn't Finch's fault...

1) The team traded for a player who plays the same position as our best player

2) We have no Point Guard but instead 2 combo guards in Dlo/Nowell and then ANT as a scoring/2 guard

3) We had no pre-season with Towns being sick and Gobert playing in Europe

4) Towns is injured and will be for another month

5) We are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league (33.4%) yet are unlucky in giving up the 3rd highest 3P% [This is random]

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:52 pm**

Colbinii wrote:lol

This thread is hilarious. Things aren't going as planned--fire the head coach!

Reasons this isn't Finch's fault...

1) The team traded for a player who plays the same position as our best player

2) We have no Point Guard but instead 2 combo guards in Dlo/Nowell and then ANT as a scoring/2 guard

3) We had no pre-season with Towns being sick and Gobert playing in Europe

4) Towns is injured and will be for another month

5) We are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league (33.4%) yet are unlucky in giving up the 3rd highest 3P% [This is random]

Thank you for restoring my faith in MIN fans today, Colbinii

I read far too many, “It’s the end of the world!” screamer posts.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:23 pm**

People wanted to fire him too last year before he adjusted our play style and we took off.

He's trying to make the awkward fit work, plus our best player is injured

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:20 pm**

Colbinii wrote:lol

This thread is hilarious. Things aren't going as planned--fire the head coach!

Reasons this isn't Finch's fault...

1) The team traded for a player who plays the same position as our best player

2) We have no Point Guard but instead 2 combo guards in Dlo/Nowell and then ANT as a scoring/2 guard

3) We had no pre-season with Towns being sick and Gobert playing in Europe

4) Towns is injured and will be for another month

5) We are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league (33.4%) yet are unlucky in giving up the 3rd highest 3P% [This is random]

Counter - Reasons this is Finch's fault...

1. Team routinely doesn't come to play/isn't prepared. Finch has admitted as much in post games.

2. Lack of timeout usage (or other inexplicable decisions like what Dome mentioned)

3. No offensive structure. It's been nearly 3 seasons now with most of these guys, it should be clear by now our core players can't operate in a free flowing offence.

4. We're giving up an absurd amount of 3s at a high %. This isn't "unlucky" or "random", it directly correlates to a defensive system that clearly isn't working.

I doubt he gets fired unless we completely miss the playoffs but he deserves to be questioned pretty hard at this point.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:03 pm**

shangrila wrote:
Colbinii wrote:lol

This thread is hilarious. Things aren't going as planned--fire the head coach!

Reasons this isn't Finch's fault...

1) The team traded for a player who plays the same position as our best player

2) We have no Point Guard but instead 2 combo guards in Dlo/Nowell and then ANT as a scoring/2 guard

3) We had no pre-season with Towns being sick and Gobert playing in Europe

4) Towns is injured and will be for another month

5) We are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league (33.4%) yet are unlucky in giving up the 3rd highest 3P% [This is random]

Counter - Reasons this is Finch's fault...

1. Team routinely doesn't come to play/isn't prepared. Finch has admitted as much in post games.

2. Lack of timeout usage (or other inexplicable decisions like what Dome mentioned)

3. No offensive structure. It's been nearly 3 seasons now with most of these guys, it should be clear by now our core players can't operate in a free flowing offence.

4. We're giving up an absurd amount of 3s at a high %. This isn't "unlucky" or "random", it directly correlates to a defensive system that clearly isn't working.

I doubt he gets fired unless we completely miss the playoffs but he deserves to be questioned pretty hard at this point.

Counter to counter

1) this season we are one of the best team in clutch, despite still being top5 youngest teams in NBA

2) there is some inconsistency in Finch TOs. However, Finch is widely considered as one of the best coaches in ATOs

3) I disagree. Towns and Edwards has been thriving in Finch offense. The biggest question now is whether Gobert and DLo can adopt this style. Also it is easy to see that first games our players did not know how to play with Gobert. They need repetition.

4) yes, our defensive scheme have problems with open 3s. Similar to situation in offense our players are learning NOW how to play with Gobert. But we already have above average half court defense.

Again, last year BOS was awful before January. Our main issues are rebounding which is 99% effort and turnovers. Both components affects our defense against 3pt shots. Once we mitigate these issues I expect big improvement.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:34 pm**

bigger issue is that Wolves have made the 2nd and 3rd worse trades in recent history (after Lakers-Westbrook)

Finch doesn't seem to be good at "man-managing" and getting players to give good effort or buy into how he wants them to play, but I don't think there are that many coaches in NBA that are able to do that, too much of a player driven league. So that would be more that the management isn't' giving the proper players. It will be curious 10 years from now when people start telling the truth whether Finch was in favor of trading for Gobert

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:44 pm**

"Thriving" is relative. KAT could put up numbers in any offence, most likely the same with Ant. But why can't we execute properly in the 3rd? Why do we go long stretches without being able to score? Why does so much of our offence have guys standing around doing nothing? I'm also not sure where this "widely considered best at ATOs" is from, I'd love to see a source on that.

I'm also not sure why you think we have an above average half court defence, do you have a source for that? As we're currently, in general defence, 20th in DRTG, 27th in Opp PPG, 27th in DRB%, 18th in Opp eFG% while being 28th in SOS (i.e. one of the easiest schedules so far). The only places we're even average in is Opp TOV% (12th) and Opp FT/FGA (tied-16th). That's not good.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:55 am**

shangrila wrote:"Thriving" is relative. KAT could put up numbers in any offence, most likely the same with Ant. But why can't we execute properly in the 3rd? Why do we go long stretches without being able to score? Why does so much of our offence have guys standing around doing nothing?

I agree that Towns and Ant could put big numbers in almost any offence. But when I said thriving I meant whole development progress from these two players. Both have improved a lot. For instance, Towns was considered stretch 5, but last season he was the best slasher among C, this year he took step forward as passer. Before draft Ant was considered as raw, athletic, low efficiency scorer with many red flags. MCD two years ago was almost unplayable. Maybe Finch is not perfect "win-now" coach, but it is hard to deny that our young players progress from year to year.

shangrila wrote:I'm also not sure where this "widely considered best at ATOs" is from, I'd love to see a source on that.

Here is one example.
https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/memphisminnesota-game-5-was-a-masterclass-in-playcalling-wizardry

Here is another from Joe Hulbert. One of the best Xs and Os NBA guys.
https://www.canishoopus.com/2022/9/30/23370495/deep-dive-inside-the-minnesota-timberwolves-creative-offensive-scheme-nba-preview

Also I saw stats from Synergy about team efficiency after timeouts. Cant find it now, since it is paid content.

MIN are actually top3 in clutch this year.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/clutch-traditional

shangrila wrote:I'm also not sure why you think we have an above average half court defence, do you have a source for that?

Read on Twitter

?s

It is also clear that media and players support Finch. They clearly know situation in locker room better than us.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:21 am**

Interesting. Thanks for looking that up.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm**

Some of this stuff is silly. To think KAT or Ant wouldn’t have progressed as players without Finch is naive.

His plays out of timeouts is elite? Then why the **** doesn’t he take more timeouts?

I was a huge fan of Finch last season, and thought after the playoff series he would learn he has work to do as a coach.

He has learned about as much about coaching as KAT has about not picking up offensive fouls.

It’s ridiculous.

Their defense is top 3 in the half court? Ok? But they turn it over so much it basically negates the fact.
How about that rebounding, matching up with someone and boxing out. Maybe that should be the ONLY focus of practice for a month.

Maybe running more set plays because guys are playing in the “flow” and turning it over too much.

So many LITTLE things that aren’t emphasized.

It’s ALWAYS the little things. As Rudy said “the things people won’t see when they’re watching on their tv”.

Coaching is about the details. The small, fine, details.
Like boxing out.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:43 pm**

m2002brian wrote:Some of this stuff is silly. To think KAT or Ant wouldn’t have progressed as players without Finch is naive.

His plays out of timeouts is elite? Then why the **** doesn’t he take more timeouts?

I was a huge fan of Finch last season, and thought after the playoff series he would learn he has work to do as a coach.

He has learned about as much about coaching as KAT has about not picking up offensive fouls.

It’s ridiculous.

Their defense is top 3 in the half court? Ok? But they turn it over so much it basically negates the fact.
How about that rebounding, matching up with someone and boxing out. Maybe that should be the ONLY focus of practice for a month.

Maybe running more set plays because guys are playing in the “flow” and turning it over too much.

So many LITTLE things that aren’t emphasized.

It’s ALWAYS the little things. As Rudy said “the things people won’t see when they’re watching on their tv”.

Coaching is about the details. The small, fine, details.
Like boxing out.

Have you tried to apply for HC job? I think you are too good to comment silly stuff on realgm forum

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:30 pm**

minimus wrote:
m2002brian wrote:Some of this stuff is silly. To think KAT or Ant wouldn’t have progressed as players without Finch is naive.

His plays out of timeouts is elite? Then why the **** doesn’t he take more timeouts?

I was a huge fan of Finch last season, and thought after the playoff series he would learn he has work to do as a coach.

He has learned about as much about coaching as KAT has about not picking up offensive fouls.

It’s ridiculous.

Their defense is top 3 in the half court? Ok? But they turn it over so much it basically negates the fact.
How about that rebounding, matching up with someone and boxing out. Maybe that should be the ONLY focus of practice for a month.

Maybe running more set plays because guys are playing in the “flow” and turning it over too much.

So many LITTLE things that aren’t emphasized.

It’s ALWAYS the little things. As Rudy said “the things people won’t see when they’re watching on their tv”.

Coaching is about the details. The small, fine, details.
Like boxing out.

Have you tried to apply for HC job? I think you are too good to comment silly stuff on realgm forum

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:22 pm**

Fivethirtyeight, using their RAPTOR system, has their chance of making the playoffs:

65% Jazz
60% Clippers
51% Blazers
44% Kings
34% Wolves
13% Lakers

OKC, HOU, SA are the bottom three

Tough to make predictions this year with so many teams so tightly packed, but I thought I’d share

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:55 am**

I think it is necessary to make a clarification: my intent was not to move an instantaneous motion against him. But it was to open a discussion about whether Finch is the right manager for this team and its ambitions. Or at least, the ambitions that the management seems to have given the movements made in the summer. This thread has the same spirit as the one on our GM the day after the trade for Gobert.

As I wrote in the first post, in my opinion Finch has obvious coaching limitations and he is not the right name to lead a team that has set itself the goal of becoming a competitive team in the next 3/4 years.

I didn't write that he's not capable of raising young player or that he's a complete idiot. I think he doesn't have the tools and the ideas to be able to do what we all expect.
I've been following the Timberwolves since 1996 without missing a season. Far be it from me to troll or shovel **** about a team I love and for which I turn on my mobile phone every morning before breakfast to watch the highlights or better, when possible, review the match recorded during the night on SkyItalia.

I complain that Twolves games are often a photocopy. Especially this year. I accept all the extenuating circumstances such as injuries and a new game system that provides for the inclusion of Gobert within our mechanisms, but I ask you: do you see a precise game identity? Do you see a clear idea of what the team wants to do on the pitch? I personally don't. We don't put matches in terms of pace. We don't even put them on a defensive footing. We don't put them on physicality by exploiting Gobert (now) and Gobert+Towns (before). Every player has their own inclinations, but what is a coach for if not to make a player be the right cog within the system? I'll give you a silly example: we signed Forbes. Strong, scarce, washed and unsuitable (whatever you want), but one thing he knows (maybe he knew) to do: shoot. Have you ever seen precise schemes and screens to get Forbes out and get him open shots? Did Forbes suddenly become an amateur player? Until last year it was shooting with 42% and the year before with 45% it seems to me. I repeat: it is a stupid example but I can think of others. Have we a defensive soul? Nope. I see every morning a lot of open 3s and others defensive mistake.

Ps: you will forgive me some spelling errors. Sometimes I try to get help from google translate.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:37 am**

TwolvesFanRome wrote:As I wrote in the first post, in my opinion Finch has obvious coaching limitations and he is not the right name to lead a team that has set itself the goal of becoming a competitive team in the next 3/4 years.

If the goal is to be competitive, then why not to wait until Towns, Gobert and DLo play together at least half of season? Either way you cant trade Towns this season, they missed preseason and training camp, both Gobert and Towns were out of shape in the beginning of the season. All of capable HC candidates at the moment have job and it does not make any sense to change HC unless it is Udoka/Rosas situation, because without offseason preparation you just will waste whole season, trying to patch things on the fly, although you can do it in rebuilding situation. I don't see any "magic button"that will solve our rebounding issues and turnovers. IMO it is mostly on players.

But with multiple good teams underperforming I dont really see why we have to fire Finch based on current results:

Should MIA fire Spoelstra?
Should TOR fire Nurse?
Should GSW fire Kerr?

TwolvesFanRome wrote:but I ask you: do you see a precise game identity?

I recommend you to check this twitter thread.

Read on Twitter

?s

My interpretation of all these stats is following:

1) we are good both in halfcourt offense and defense
2) we are awful, terrible in transition offense and defense
3) we are good at attacking the rim and defending the rim, we are terrible at attacking from 3pt line and defending and 3pt line.

(who knew! with oversized frountcourt ha-ha)

So this is pretty much our identity, which is consequence of our roster construction: constantly pressure the rim, make other opponent team defense collapse, move the ball. I believe that it is a good foundation to build around:

1) we have Gobert who is an elite rim-runner, vertical spacer
2) we have Towns who is elite slasher among bigs
3) we have Edwards who has been better at finishing at rim: more and1s, more FTs.

The main problems now in my opinion are turnovers, 3pt shooting is such volatile thing. I actually think that Beverley defense last year was kind of overrated, while his passing and decision making was underrated. All players who I hoped would take leap as decision makers such as DLo, Ant and Nowell, they all have been struggling to care of the ball. Part of the issue is off ball movement which does not come naturally for young players. Little things like "lifting" on perimeter or setting up early in offense in order to be able to speed up play execution.

TwolvesFanRome wrote:I didn't write that he's not capable of raising young player or that he's a complete idiot. I think he doesn't have the tools and the ideas to be able to do what we all expect.

Well, your expectation is your problem :lol:

. Sure, this team was advertised by players as contender. But our FO and coach did not say anything like that. I understand when fans buy "tickets" because of advertisement. But you cant manage your team, for instance, fire HC based on this.

One good example of fans expectation vs real improvements is Edwards. As fan I would expect same high reel dunks, blocked shots, eurosteps all the way and step back threes, 33PPG etc. But. The real improvements I see last games are:

1) his willingness use Gobert screens
2) his FTs ratio! I remember last year fans complained about his low FTs number. Last 10 games he averages 7 FTs per game vs 4 FTs last season
3) he tries to pass to Gobert. I dont have stats, but in his first 10 games this season he made like two assists to Gobert. Last 10 games he made much, much more.

So these improvements are not sexy, but his steals numbers are up, his rebounds are up, his FTs are up. He is actually IMPROVING. Just not in the way fans expected.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:14 pm**

Colbinii wrote:lol

This thread is hilarious. Things aren't going as planned--fire the head coach!

Reasons this isn't Finch's fault...

1) The team traded for a player who plays the same position as our best player

2) We have no Point Guard but instead 2 combo guards in Dlo/Nowell and then ANT as a scoring/2 guard

3) We had no pre-season with Towns being sick and Gobert playing in Europe

4) Towns is injured and will be for another month

5) We are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league (33.4%) yet are unlucky in giving up the 3rd highest 3P% [This is random]

i'm glad there's still some sanity around these parts.

RealGM

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