Woj/Shams/Jon: The Russell deal is done

[Worm Guts]

Are you trying to state winning a first round series is a greater achievement than winning a championship?

And one thing I haven't seen you comment on yet is how James has either quit (Cavs vs. Celtics) or no-showed (Heat vs. Mavs).

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

Longevity very much matters in the GOAT conversation, but average stats favor LeBron in just about everything except PPG.

I think most look at the peak of a career more so than the longevity.

[Baseline81]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

Forgetting things like DPOY and MVP?

As another poster stated, using statistical totals reflect longevity. Don't get me wrong, that is a factor, but not the be-all, end-all. Do you consider Emmitt Smith the GOAT running back because he holds the most rushing yards? Other than a Cowboys fan, he is widely considered not to be the GOAT.

[BlacJacMac]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

How about defense?

LeBron used to be a very good defender. Jordan was on an entirely different level.

LeBron: 5x Defensive first team - but not in the last 10 years. 1x second team.
Jordan: 9x Defensive first team. Defensive Player of the Year. 3x Steals leader.

LeBron has not made an All Defense team since he was 30. Jordan was still 1st team at 35.

[urinesane]

What's any of this have to do with the trade?

[fattymcgee]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

MVP's Jordan 5 - Lebron 4
Defensive player of the year Jordan 1 - Lebron 0
All-Defensive 1st team Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Steals leader Jordan 3 - Lebron 0
Scoring leader Jordan 10 - Lebron 1
Career PPG leader - Jordan #1 all-time
NBA PER leader Jordan 7 - Lebron 6
Offensive win shares leader Jordan 8 - Lebron 4
Win shares leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Offensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 6
Defensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 2 - Lebron 1
Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 7
VORP Jordan 9 - Lebron 9

The advanced stats say Jordan was better. And Jordan did all this with leaving the game for multiple years (2 years in between his 3-peats & he retired again after his 98 MVP season) of his prime. He would've expanded his lead over LeSecond in all these categories.

[KGdaBom]

He doesn't even has his data correct. The only thing LBJ and KAJ have above other great players is longevity... it's why they are the top two scorers of all time. Both are all time greats... but in my view not the GOAT. Maybe if LBJ plays until he's 50 or 60 he will get to the number of championships Jordan won...but he would have to be an excellent recruiter to do so...and take a pay cut.

Longevity very much matters in the GOAT conversation, but average stats favor LeBron in just about everything except PPG.

I think most look at the peak of a career more so than the longevity.

It should be a balance of the two. If it's just peak I think Wilt has to be the GOAT when he averaged 50.4/25.7 rebounds and 2.4 assists per game.

[KGdaBom]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

Forgetting things like DPOY and MVP?

As another poster stated, using statistical totals reflect longevity. Don't get me wrong, that is a factor, but not the be-all, end-all. Do you consider Emmitt Smith the GOAT running back because he holds the most rushing yards? Other than a Cowboys fan, he is widely considered not to be the GOAT.

DPOY and MVP aren't stats, but if MVP is a Stat Jordan had one more. Other than PPG LeBron beats Jordan on averages also in pretty much everything else. So averages and longevity both favor LeBron. Longevity certainly should be taken into account. Statistically there is no question that LeBron is better. I understand that stats aren't everything, but nobody being honest thinks MJ is the GOAT when it comes to stats. It's a feeling. Game style personal preference thing.

[KGdaBom]

What's any of this have to do with the trade?

Nothing, but we're having fun.

[KGdaBom]

I'm taking a big picture comparison of the two players. Jordan was very good. Arguably the 2nd best player ever.
Titles
Jordan 6
Lebron 4
Advantage Jordan
Finals
LeBron 8
Jordan 6
Advantage LeBron
Playoff totals
LeBron 174-92
Jordan 119-60
slightly better % Jordan, but so many more playoff wins for LeBron
Advantage LeBron
Career scoring average
Jordan 30.1
James 27.2
Advantage Jordan
Career scoring
LeBron 38,390
Jordan 32,292
Advantage LeBron
Assist average
LeBron 7.3
Jordan 5.3
Advantage LeBron
Rebound Average
LeBron 7.5
Jordan 6.2
Advantage LeBron.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you see a trend here.
Anybody being honest has to acknowledge that the numbers favor LeBron.

MVP's Jordan 5 - Lebron 4
Defensive player of the year Jordan 1 - Lebron 0
All-Defensive 1st team Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Steals leader Jordan 3 - Lebron 0
Scoring leader Jordan 10 - Lebron 1
Career PPG leader - Jordan #1 all-time
NBA PER leader Jordan 7 - Lebron 6
Offensive win shares leader Jordan 8 - Lebron 4
Win shares leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Offensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 6
Defensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 2 - Lebron 1
Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 7
VORP Jordan 9 - Lebron 9

The advanced stats say Jordan was better. And Jordan did all this with leaving the game for multiple years (2 years in between his 3-peats & he retired again after his 98 MVP season) of his prime. He would've expanded his lead over LeSecond in all these categories.

Most people don't use advanced stats in determining best. I like when they do for Rudy because he scores so high. Voted on awards are not stats. They are a popularity contest. Good research though finding the things that Jordan wins in. I'm particularly enthralled by offensive and defensive box +/- stats. I don't think I ever heard of that one before just now. Jordan was better at steals and that is a real stat so I add it to his win column. Jordan was a better scorer than LeBron. I've never debated that. Wilt was a better scorer than MJ in both of their primes and Wilt is getting no GOAT love. I think Wilt does not get his due. People say it wasn't fair because he was bigger and stronger than his competition. Players are better now. If players are better now that's another factor in favor of LeBron. Or did they just get better until Jordan's time and have stopped getting better now?

[Baseline81]

DPOY and MVP aren't stats, but if MVP is a Stat Jordan had one more. Other than PPG LeBron beats Jordan on averages also in pretty much everything else. So averages and longevity both favor LeBron. Longevity certainly should be taken into account. Statistically there is no question that LeBron is better. I understand that stats aren't everything, but nobody being honest thinks MJ is the GOAT when it comes to stats. It's a feeling. Game style personal preference thing.

What? Sorry, those are not popularity contests. You seem to be picking and choosing what you want to be as the criteria.

Additionally, why do you keep saying other than PPG. How about steals? James also has more turnovers, but one could say because he has more assists, that evens things out.

[KGdaBom]

DPOY and MVP aren't stats, but if MVP is a Stat Jordan had one more. Other than PPG LeBron beats Jordan on averages also in pretty much everything else. So averages and longevity both favor LeBron. Longevity certainly should be taken into account. Statistically there is no question that LeBron is better. I understand that stats aren't everything, but nobody being honest thinks MJ is the GOAT when it comes to stats. It's a feeling. Game style personal preference thing.

What? Sorry, those are not popularity contests. You seem to be picking and choosing what you want to be as the criteria.

Additionally, why do you keep saying other than PPG. How about steals? James also has more turnovers, but one could say because he has more assists, that evens things out.

Those are popularity contests because people can cast their vote for whoever they want. They are probably influenced by the stats. Yes I know Jordan has more steals. I added that to his win column. As a general rule the players who handle the ball the most have the most TOs. A/TO is a better stat. I had some difficulty finding that stat, but I'm guessing it is close.

We all know the big three stats are points, rebounds, assists. James wins 2 of them on averages and all of them on total. James also has far more 3s than Jordan, but I didn't bring that up. Jordan shot .327 from 3 and made 581 for his career. LeBron shoots .344 and has made 2237. That's 4 times as many at a better percent. LeBron wins FG%, but Jordan buries him in FT%. Have we covered enough stats now?

[urinesane]

What's any of this have to do with the trade?

Nothing, but we're having fun.

Cool, make a new thread or use PMs please.

[BlacJacMac]

James also has far more 3s than Jordan, but I didn't bring that up. Jordan shot .327 from 3 and made 581 for his career. LeBron shoots .344 and has made 2237. That's 4 times as many at a better percent. LeBron wins FG%, but Jordan buries him in FT%. Have we covered enough stats now?

Now you're crossing eras.

Larry Bird only made 649 3s. I guess LeBron is a better 3PT shooter than Bird? The 3 was not nearly as big a part of the game when Jordan played. LeBron has more made 3s than Dirk. Anthony Edwards has 159 made 3s in 60 games. The entire Timberwolves roster made less than that each of their first 3 seasons.

I've never seen someone cherry pick and manipulate his way so hard to a conclusion and then call it an undeniable fact...

"Most people", "people say" "we all know", "Anybody being honest"... I do not think those mean what you think they mean...

[fattymcgee]

MVP's Jordan 5 - Lebron 4
Defensive player of the year Jordan 1 - Lebron 0
All-Defensive 1st team Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Steals leader Jordan 3 - Lebron 0
Scoring leader Jordan 10 - Lebron 1
Career PPG leader - Jordan #1 all-time
NBA PER leader Jordan 7 - Lebron 6
Offensive win shares leader Jordan 8 - Lebron 4
Win shares leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 5
Offensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 6
Defensive Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 2 - Lebron 1
Box Plus/Minus league leader Jordan 9 - Lebron 7
VORP Jordan 9 - Lebron 9

The advanced stats say Jordan was better. And Jordan did all this with leaving the game for multiple years (2 years in between his 3-peats & he retired again after his 98 MVP season) of his prime. He would've expanded his lead over LeSecond in all these categories.

Most people don't use advanced stats in determining best. I like when they do for Rudy because he scores so high. Voted on awards are not stats. They are a popularity contest. Good research though finding the things that Jordan wins in. I'm particularly enthralled by offensive and defensive box +/- stats. I don't think I ever heard of that one before just now. Jordan was better at steals and that is a real stat so I add it to his win column. Jordan was a better scorer than LeBron. I've never debated that. Wilt was a better scorer than MJ in both of their primes and Wilt is getting no GOAT love. I think Wilt does not get his due. People say it wasn't fair because he was bigger and stronger than his competition. Players are better now. If players are better now that's another factor in favor of LeBron. Or did they just get better until Jordan's time and have stopped getting better now?

Just about everything I posted is a stat, but you're ignoring them. PER is a conglomeration of offensive stats.
What's more important, stats or MVP? I'm pretty sure that almost everyone would agree that the MVP is more important than stats.

Comparing eras is hard to do.
- One advantage Wilt had was some rules were different. The lane was narrower at the beginning of his career when he set all the single season scoring records.
- Lebron has the advantage of having a ton more space to work in with the explosion of the 3-ball.
- In Michaels era, defenders were allowed to hand check. Can you imagine how much he would score with all the space nowadays and with no hand checking.

[urinesane]

THERE IS NO GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

THERE IS ONLY THE GREATEST OF A TIME.

What a pointless argument. Can we get back to talking about the trade (i.e. the topic of this thread)?

[urinesane]

About the trade, I think it's really easy for people to look at players in a vacuum, but the box score and even advanced metrics ARE NOT THE GAME. They are simply data created by actions in the game, but they are not an accurate representation (otherwise you'd be able to just get some algorithm to draft/trade and win every year).

Which is why on paper a lot of people are for some reason crapping on trading DLo for an older PG. The biggest thing is not in their individual stats, it's in how they impact not only the stats for their teammates (and even moreso their mindsets).

DLo is a terrible leader. He is not a player you want younger players fashioning their game after, nor is he a guy that makes his teammates better. You'll get a nice pass here and there to make you think he could be a creator, but when it comes to DLo he comes first before his team/winning.

Which is fine as an individual, but not the type of person you want being a cornerstone of your team. What's much more valuable is how Conley will help build chemistry and good habits with this young core. He is a stabilizing force (and he can still play a bit, which is always helpful in a mentor/vet role) and having him around McDaniels/Edwards will be great, also the comfort level with Rudy will help bring him back to where he was as a player the last few season (which could already be seen in Dallas).

I think Conley is a better player than DLo on a team looking to win basketball games. I don't think there is any argument against that, and since this isn't a fantasy basketball league, it's what matters most.

On top of that the Wolves got a handful of 2nds (which I'm much more confident in their ability to find gems than pre-Rosas era) and a player that has had some time to build experience and with the right guidance could be another gem.

I know people were breaking out the pitchforks for the Rudy trade, but this isn't simply doubling down on that, it's giving it a chance to actually work. DLo certainly wasn't willing to sacrifice in order to gel with Rudy, and I highly doubt he'd be willing to take a pay cut to stay with a team on the verge of making a splash.

Which means outside of a S&T we were getting nothing out of DLo AND we would be worse off for the season of lost opportunity to build chemistry between the core that will be in MN for the next 2-3 seasons at least.

You could see, especially early on how Conley already changes the dynamic just by how the ball moved around the floor, creating opportunities for everyone, and especially unlocking Rudy by giving him passes the way he needs them to be delivered in order to play his game. The intangibles that don't show up on a box score, yet make a huge difference in the success of winning teams is the biggest things the Wolves gained in the trade.

If you think the Wolves didn't get enough value for DLo, then you are not understanding what DLos actual value was to the rest of the league. It'd be HILARIOUS if he didn't sign with the Lakers, and EVEN BETTER if they sign him to anywhere near a max deal.

[TimberKat]

About the trade, I think it's really easy for people to look at players in a vacuum, but the box score and even advanced metrics ARE NOT THE GAME. They are simply data created by actions in the game, but they are not an accurate representation (otherwise you'd be able to just get some algorithm to draft/trade and win every year).

Which is why on paper a lot of people are for some reason crapping on trading DLo for an older PG. The biggest thing is not in their individual stats, it's in how they impact not only the stats for their teammates (and even moreso their mindsets).

DLo is a terrible leader. He is not a player you want younger players fashioning their game after, nor is he a guy that makes his teammates better. You'll get a nice pass here and there to make you think he could be a creator, but when it comes to DLo he comes first before his team/winning.

Which is fine as an individual, but not the type of person you want being a cornerstone of your team. What's much more valuable is how Conley will help build chemistry and good habits with this young core. He is a stabilizing force (and he can still play a bit, which is always helpful in a mentor/vet role) and having him around McDaniels/Edwards will be great, also the comfort level with Rudy will help bring him back to where he was as a player the last few season (which could already be seen in Dallas).

I think Conley is a better player than DLo on a team looking to win basketball games. I don't think there is any argument against that, and since this isn't a fantasy basketball league, it's what matters most.

On top of that the Wolves got a handful of 2nds (which I'm much more confident in their ability to find gems than pre-Rosas era) and a player that has had some time to build experience and with the right guidance could be another gem.

I know people were breaking out the pitchforks for the Rudy trade, but this isn't simply doubling down on that, it's giving it a chance to actually work. DLo certainly wasn't willing to sacrifice in order to gel with Rudy, and I highly doubt he'd be willing to take a pay cut to stay with a team on the verge of making a splash.

Which means outside of a S&T we were getting nothing out of DLo AND we would be worse off for the season of lost opportunity to build chemistry between the core that will be in MN for the next 2-3 seasons at least.

You could see, especially early on how Conley already changes the dynamic just by how the ball moved around the floor, creating opportunities for everyone, and especially unlocking Rudy by giving him passes the way he needs them to be delivered in order to play his game. The intangibles that don't show up on a box score, yet make a huge difference in the success of winning teams is the biggest things the Wolves gained in the trade.

If you think the Wolves didn't get enough value for DLo, then you are not understanding what DLos actual value was to the rest of the league. It'd be HILARIOUS if he didn't sign with the Lakers, and EVEN BETTER if they sign him to anywhere near a max deal.

Well said. DLo's value is a slightly better version of JR Smith. Not someone who will help develop Ant and JMac.

To DLo's credit, it forced Ant to learn how to handle the ball and JMac to learn guarding PGs. I am not sure that's the learning path we want

[urinesane]

About the trade, I think it's really easy for people to look at players in a vacuum, but the box score and even advanced metrics ARE NOT THE GAME. They are simply data created by actions in the game, but they are not an accurate representation (otherwise you'd be able to just get some algorithm to draft/trade and win every year).

Which is why on paper a lot of people are for some reason crapping on trading DLo for an older PG. The biggest thing is not in their individual stats, it's in how they impact not only the stats for their teammates (and even moreso their mindsets).

DLo is a terrible leader. He is not a player you want younger players fashioning their game after, nor is he a guy that makes his teammates better. You'll get a nice pass here and there to make you think he could be a creator, but when it comes to DLo he comes first before his team/winning.

Which is fine as an individual, but not the type of person you want being a cornerstone of your team. What's much more valuable is how Conley will help build chemistry and good habits with this young core. He is a stabilizing force (and he can still play a bit, which is always helpful in a mentor/vet role) and having him around McDaniels/Edwards will be great, also the comfort level with Rudy will help bring him back to where he was as a player the last few season (which could already be seen in Dallas).

I think Conley is a better player than DLo on a team looking to win basketball games. I don't think there is any argument against that, and since this isn't a fantasy basketball league, it's what matters most.

On top of that the Wolves got a handful of 2nds (which I'm much more confident in their ability to find gems than pre-Rosas era) and a player that has had some time to build experience and with the right guidance could be another gem.

I know people were breaking out the pitchforks for the Rudy trade, but this isn't simply doubling down on that, it's giving it a chance to actually work. DLo certainly wasn't willing to sacrifice in order to gel with Rudy, and I highly doubt he'd be willing to take a pay cut to stay with a team on the verge of making a splash.

Which means outside of a S&T we were getting nothing out of DLo AND we would be worse off for the season of lost opportunity to build chemistry between the core that will be in MN for the next 2-3 seasons at least.

You could see, especially early on how Conley already changes the dynamic just by how the ball moved around the floor, creating opportunities for everyone, and especially unlocking Rudy by giving him passes the way he needs them to be delivered in order to play his game. The intangibles that don't show up on a box score, yet make a huge difference in the success of winning teams is the biggest things the Wolves gained in the trade.

If you think the Wolves didn't get enough value for DLo, then you are not understanding what DLos actual value was to the rest of the league. It'd be HILARIOUS if he didn't sign with the Lakers, and EVEN BETTER if they sign him to anywhere near a max deal.

Well said. DLo's value is a slightly better version of JR Smith. Not someone who will help develop Ant and JMac.

To DLo's credit, it forced Ant to learn how to handle the ball and JMac to learn guarding PGs. I am not sure that's the learning path we want

It's pretty big to go from having to hide your PG on defense and hope he's on fire to make him a net positive vs having a PG that creates more structure and discipline (which has been the biggest issue by far this season) and doesn't need to score much to have a positive impact.

EDIT: Also the fact that Conley is a good enough offensive player to consistently make defenses pay for not guarding him, which allows him to not only get his floaters, but also so they can't cheat on the lob threat. Which was the biggest factor in Rubio not quite making the jump to elite PG status (if he could have made teams pay more consistently for sagging, he would have been a top PG in the league).

[Klomp]

I thought it'd be interesting to go back and revisit this thread. I wasn't disappointed! (at least not until it devolved into an irrelevant conversation for most of the back half of the thread)

[TimberKat]

It is done-done. Mike + NAW >>> DLo (Three time greater than). I still miss DLo's hot shooting off the bench but looks like he is going to be a poor man's Monk in the NBA while we ride Conley+NAW to NBA championship. I just wonder if Conley will getting a All Star selection this year.

Edit: I forgot we got not one but two second round picks too.