Identity crisis?

minimus · Post #181 » by **minimus** » Wed Aug 2, 2023 5:53 pm

I swear I wrote my notes about DLo shooting BEFORE PatBev podcast...

minimus · Post #182 » by **minimus** » Tue Aug 22, 2023 8:47 am

I have been watching / rewatching late season and playoffs games, when two excellent videos came up. First is NBA trends from Daniel, second is overview of MIN late season / playoff offense:

Watch on YouTube

Some thoughts:

First, I have noticed how in both videos use of double screens on top of the arc. MIN has indeed started to run more double screens at the end of the last season. Instead of using Towns as stretch big it gives us much more creativity because he is also used as screener. The only issue I can see here is Towns tendency to pickup offensive fouls when he sets moving screens. Otherwise it should be our main component in offense.

Second, spacing non shooter big (Gobert) to a corner with following DHO with shooters. This tactic is not something that MIN use on regular basis. However I can see that Finch tried to implement Gobert DHO on wings actions. This might be even more dangerous with integration of Conley empty corner plays AND McDaniels, Edwards development as a movement shooter. I even saw one action where Towns and Gobert ran doulbe (!!!) DHO for Edwards. I can see here big potential for Anderson as well. He can space out in corner and instantly be involved in DHO action.

Finally, all things above much smoother, more achievable if we have multiple movement shooters. As it was mentioned below, Finch might have his most creative schemes in NBA, but it is hard to implement a high level NBA offense when you play McLaughlin 31%, Forbes 30%, Nowell 29% from 3PT

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Although I think it is worth to note that an NBA offense is also a balance between high level high structured team flow and simple but effective team offense. On one hand it drove me crazy many times when Gobert tried to postup which I think was a big failure from our coaching staff to put Gobert in such situations. On other hand when I rewatch our playoff series against DEN, they often ran simple but highly efficient actions such as Jokic-Murray DHO, Jokic postup, MPJ running in fastbreak and getting open on wings etc. Two years ago a staple for Finch offense was different Horns variations, they ran this play almost automatically. This year after Towns injury they was not successful at using this play, because Anderson is not a pick-n-pop threat from top of the arc. When healthy Towns and Gobert are playing Horns our chemistry is almost perfect: Towns stretches field from top of arc, Gobert is rim runner, MCD is in corner, Conley can fill another corner. I am really eager to see whether NAW, Troy Brown can blossom as movement shooters for us.

minimus · Post #183 » by **minimus** » Sat Sep 9, 2023 7:32 am

It would be absolutely crazy, but 100% MIN way if in two years we will be able to assemble a completely different frontcourt:

- an aging Gobert
- Towns (gets traded)
- Anderson (will sign as FA with other team)
- Naz Reid
- Luka Garza (resigned)
- Leonard Miller (developed into full time starting PF)
- Josh Minott (developed into energy guy from the bench)
+
a big from 2024 draft

I already have my favorite Alexandre Sarr, mobile 7'1" rim protector with 7'4" wingspan, passing, and shooting skills:

Watch on YouTube

I can imagine Reid/Sarr/Leonard/Minott as bigs around Edwards and McDaniels running all day long in transition, creating havoc.

minimus · Post #184 » by **minimus** » Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:20 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/16iwzwe/the_most_stacked_teams_heading_into_the_2324/

Found very interesting topic on reddit. It basically says that MIN is one the most stacked teams in NBA. Flip Saunders, Rosas, Gupta, new owners, TC are have done great job to assemble current group in terms of finding, developing, acquiring raw talent. However I think that that I have been undervalued how much bottom NBA teams are starved for talent. Bad teams often overestimate their capabilities to develop through draft: you need to hit jackpot by drafting right player, develop him in right environment for multiple years, avoid injuries (see Poku, Troy Murphy news) etc. Also they often overestimate value of their picks. Why it happens? I think there is a huge gap between good intentions and capabilities. It is like difference between Glen Taylor who wanted to "look in Wiggins eyes" before giving him 150 mil extension and MIA who have top level organization (they are consistently good at scouting, developing young players, have one of the best athletic and shooting development programs) and public image programs (Austin Rivers just said that he would do anything to play for the Miami Heat)

What I want to say is that:

1) a team like CHA (who struggle without talent) would value Towns more than I think, and much more than an average CHA fan think

2) raw talent comparison does not include fit and chemistry. It is true that MIA, BOS, MIL formed superstar Big Three by bringing raw talent, but Bosh-Wade-LeBron(Allen), KG-Pierce-Allen-Rondo, Giannis-Middleton-Holiday all these trio had excellent fit and chemistry. And NBA league wants to make building of superstars impossible. So latest top team such as DEN with Jokic-Murray have only clear superstars, but they have an excellent chemistry

3) And Towns-Gobert-Edwards trio looks already outdated. But hopefully they either can make it work or I undervalue Towns trade value by a lot and FO can make a successful Towns trade and re-invest our assets to build new Big Three around Edwards+MCD+???

It will be crazy to think, but a very MIN way if in three years we will have completely new Big Three, without Towns and Gobert.

Watch on YouTube

Post #185 » by **Klomp** » Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:58 pm

minimus wrote:Found very interesting topic on reddit. It basically says that MIN is one the most stacked teams in NBA. Flip Saunders, Rosas, Gupta, new owners, TC are have done great job to assemble current group in terms of finding, developing, acquiring raw talent. However I think that that I have been undervalued how much bottom NBA teams are starved for talent. Bad teams often overestimate their capabilities to develop through draft: you need to hit jackpot by drafting right player, develop him in right environment for multiple years, avoid injuries (see Poku, Troy Murphy news) etc. Also they often overestimate value of their picks. Why it happens? I think there is a huge gap between good intentions and capabilities. It is like difference between Glen Taylor who wanted to "look in Wiggins eyes" before giving him 150 mil extension and MIA who have top level organization (they are consistently good at scouting, developing young players, have one of the best athletic and shooting development programs) and public image programs (Austin Rivers just said that he would do anything to play for the Miami Heat)

I don't have time to dive into the link yet, but all of that is spot on. And especially regarding picks, keep in mind that Connelly has a "top level organization" mindset, coming from Denver where they've won and won consistently. Maybe that's why he was more willing to let go of picks, while Presti keeps auditioning for a future episode of Hoarders.

That word consistent is key too. Franchises really need to stay consistent in personnel in order to truly build something. That's why I'd say Philadelphia is on such shaky ground right now despite all the hype that follows them, with the turnover they've had the last decade in the front office, on the bench and on the court. For all the jokes that have been made locally about the ownership transition, Lore and ARod starting next year is not something I'd label as turnover with how they've been gradually integrated. Finch is relatively entrenched here, and we're developing a core group that's probably going to be around for a while to develop a locker room culture.

Post #186 » by **Klomp** » Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:46 pm

Finch: Well to me it starts with a very important question: What does a big team look like in the modern game? Just because we are big, we are not going to high-low, post-up Rudy in the massive amounts of volume (that would have been typical a decade or more ago). That’s not playing to our strengths. How do you fully employ all of KAT’s skills? I can’t ask him to just go stand in the corner when he has way more game than that. But that doesn’t mean he is playing like a (classic) big either.

We’ve got to figure out the balance of spacing. What does the spacing look like when KAT is in the post? Or what does the spacing look like when KAT is by the free throw line with the ball? What does the spacing look like with Rudy setting (a screen) in pick-and-roll?

https://www.minnpost.com/sports/2023/09/wolves-preview-one-on-one-with-coach-chris-finch/

minimus · Post #187 » by **minimus** » Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:12 pm

Once we improve our chemistry and off ball movement, we will be difficult to stop.

https://x.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1704888223737290938

Post #188 » by **Klomp** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:20 am

I still believe that at some point, we will see Towns, Gobert and Reid all on the court at the same time. And alongside them will be two of McDaniels, Anderson and/or Edwards.

Now it might only be preseason that they try it out, but at minimum I expect them to experiment with it at some point.

minimus · Post #189 » by **minimus** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:37 pm

A few thoughts / summary about upcoming season. Here are successfully findings from last seasons:

- empty side pick-n-rolls

Read on Twitter

- double screens and staggered screens

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- DHOs integrations in offensive flow

- horns was a thing two season ago

- Edwards postups

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- split actions

Read on Twitter

However, our offense never looked smooth for significant amount of games. Big part of this was lack of shooters, decision makers and chemistry. For reference, here is 0.5 concept from UTA under Snyder coaching.

Watch on YouTube

I think one of the biggest challenges for Finch is incorporating postups in four-out Gobert system. But I believe that Towns and more importantly Edwards postups should return as an evident option when either from these two have size advantage. Main integration emphasis should be quick decision making when Towns, Edwards establish good position in post, i.e. the ball must be delivered quickly to them

Watch on YouTube

In recent interview Finch said to wants more structure and more simplified plays. For instance, he said that Towns in corner is a waste of talent (I remember how Dane Moore and Kyle Theige were advocating for Towns shooting more threes from the wings) AND he wants Gobert more operating in dunker spot. Which is one of so called classic four-out initial sets. I find this a right way to balance our offense, because last year I think Finch was a little too optimistic with Gobert learning new roles in offense. This lead to Gobert postups, drunk dribbles etc. Combined with lack of shooting and spacing these were reasons why MIN had one of the worst offenses in NBA. So I think that quick Towns/Edwards postups plus weakside actions aimed to create space both for Gobert and shooters on weakside wing MUST return in menu this season. It might be a foundation for simplified yet efficient offense, that utilizes Conley hot corner shooting, Towns and Edwards slashing and postup game, improving McDaniels offensive game.

Watch on YouTube

I think that X-factor might be McDaniels as offensive connector: Edwards or Conley initiate play, but Conley will more fill corners, while Towns and McDaniels will form a twin tower formation above the break. I mean Towns and McDaniels are both > 6'10", both are good shooters, both have ability to pass and slash. I will quote below my old post. But the idea that I have is to combine Towns and McDaniels as oversized wings to build an identity that we dont have last season. I think that Towns and McDaniels have this potential as passer to feed Edwards/Gobert in post. I can see for instance Edwards operating in post with Towns and McDaniels ready on perimeter to recieve kickout pass from him and shooting over closeouts. Or McDaniels feeding Towns/Gobert by passing the ball over defense.

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MCD has gotten much better as passer: kickout passes, but more important he likes to feed Gobert under rim

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Jaden and Gobert/Reid has good chemistry. They play DHO well.

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P.S. I hope that Leonard Miller will develop in third oversized wing that can work with McDaniels

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minimus · Post #190 » by **minimus** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:17 pm

I just completely missed that we had Jaylen (Nowell) and now we had another Jaylen (Clarke). From offensive minded uninterested defender to the best defender in 2023 draft. What a turnaround! I hope this shift of identity will continue.

shrink · Post #191 » by **shrink** » Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:00 pm

Zach Lowe predicted the Wolves would in the mid-season tournament!

Any good national pub is good - time to change the national perception of this team.

Post #192 » by **Mamba4Goat** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:49 pm

shrink wrote:Zach Lowe predicted the Wolves would in the mid-season tournament!

Any good national pub is good - time to change the national perception of this team.

Man, they will get roasted so hard if they celebrate the mid-season tournament like the play-in. Especially if they are a .500 or near .500 team.

shrink · Post #193 » by **shrink** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:27 pm

Brian Windhorst listed the Wolves third in his “Breakout” teams in his latest Hoops Collective broadcast.

I don’t put a lot of weight into any of these predictions, but like I said, I do think they help change MIN’s image.

minimus · Post #194 » by **minimus** » Sat Sep 30, 2023 10:20 am

Interesting that Finch said during Media Day, that identity should be "defensively-led" and that it should include "pounding the glass, on both ends of the floor".

Watch on YouTube

Last season we had undersized bench players Reid-Nowell-TP-Rivers-McLaughlin each of them is either bad defender or poor rebounder, or both. TP played some minutes at PF and he was such a bad fit there.

This season we will have Reid-Anderson-Brown-NAW-Milton. I would not say that they will be necessarily bigger than opponents, but they at least will have enough size not to be destroyed on the glass and in transition.

shrink · Post #195 » by **shrink** » Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:22 pm

minimus wrote:Interesting that Finch said during Media Day, that identity should be "defensively-led" and that it should include "pounding the glass, on both ends of the floor".

Last season we had undersized bench players Reid-Nowell-TP-Rivers-McLaughlin each of them is either bad defender or poor rebounder, or both. TP played some minutes at PF and he was such a bad fit there.

This season we will have Reid-Anderson-Brown-NAW-Milton. I would not say that they will be necessarily bigger than opponents, but they at least will have enough size not to be destroyed on the glass and in transition.

Also, the starters will have Towns, who has been known to grab a rebound or two.

I was thinking the other day that it’s a very real possibility that this team could have three of the ten All Defense guys next year. McDaniels should have made it last year, Ant got votes last year, and Rudy has been DPOY three times. I think good defensive play from each improves the chances for the others as well.

I’m very excited to see this team this year!

TimberKat · Post #196 » by **TimberKat** » Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:49 pm

I have high expectations for Wolves this year. They have enough talent to at least make it out of the first round playoffs.

We do have an identity crisis with Twin Cities sports in general. My rhetorical question of the year: What is more difficult to accomplish - 0 for 4 in NFL Superbowl appearance, losing 18 MLB playoff games in a row (and counting), make one second round NBA playoff appearance in 33 seasons or win 18 MLB playoff games in a row?

KGdaBom · Post #197 » by **KGdaBom** » Sun Oct 1, 2023 4:52 am

TimberKat wrote:I have high expectations for Wolves this year. They have enough talent to at least make it out of the first round playoffs.

We do have an identity crisis with Twin Cities sports in general. My rhetorical question of the year: What is more difficult to accomplish - 0 for 4 in NFL Superbowl appearance, losing 18 MLB playoff games in a row (and counting), make one second round NBA playoff appearance in 33 seasons or win 18 MLB playoff games in a row?

Losing 18 MLB playoff games in a row and counting is freaking insane. By far the hardest. Hopefully it doesn't go past 18.

minimus · Post #198 » by **minimus** » Sun Oct 1, 2023 5:40 pm

https://x.com/DaneMooreNBA/status/1708221009042575370

An absolute must-read from Dane. A lot of food for thought: what type of PG wants Finch, what are his role and responsibilities in motion offense etc.

Post #199 » by **Klomp** » Sun Oct 1, 2023 6:03 pm

minimus wrote:

Read on Twitter

An absolute must-read from Dane. A lot of food for thought: what type of PG wants Finch, what are his role and responsibilities in motion offense etc.

I really didn't understand it leading up to all of the trade talk, but holy crap Conley was exactly what we needed. And I love that we'll now have guys like Nickeil and Shake soaking up knowledge from him on how to play the position.

TimberKat · Post #200 » by **TimberKat** » Sun Oct 1, 2023 6:15 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:

Read on Twitter

An absolute must-read from Dane. A lot of food for thought: what type of PG wants Finch, what are his role and responsibilities in motion offense etc.

I really didn't understand it leading up to all of the trade talk, but holy crap Conley was exactly what we needed. And I love that we'll now have guys like Nickeil and Shake soaking up knowledge from him on how to play the position.

It's about PG of the future, his age, and salary.
For me, just about every trade I mentioned, I always say keep him if possible. I wish he is 3 years younger.