GT: Nets @ Muggles 12/29 7PM EST. Zen

[Tha King]

I'll trade Bridges to Houston in exchange of our own draft picks in a heartbeat...

No. The Nets ownership/management believe you can't tank in NYC. They're right. There's too much competition for entertainment. You're going to alienate a somewhat new fan base if you go through a multi-year rebuild.

with his contract, counting stats and perception as an all star level player, Bridges could bring a 'star' like return. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking move because you could possibly get a rookie scale contributor, depth, and picks. It's not like he's an irreplaceable superstar, this time last year he was considered a 3&D role player.

[Marvin Martian]

I'll trade Bridges to Houston in exchange of our own draft picks in a heartbeat...

No. The Nets ownership/management believe you can't tank in NYC. They're right. There's too much competition for entertainment. You're going to alienate a somewhat new fan base if you go through a multi-year rebuild.

We've tried consecutive all-in moves and look where it got us? I'd rather build through the draft like OKC.

No one can out this average team full of role players to the top. Not Mitchell, Siakam or any tier 2 players that can be had via trade.

I'll be willing to grow organically, and I really think that's the right way to do it. We can still showcase exciting young players such as Cam T to entertain the fans.

OKC is in their current position because of SGA, a top 5 player that they didn't draft. They got lucky. No way would their core go anywhere without him.

We don't own our picks so it's not worth the gamble. I remember people here wanted to trade Bridges for Scoot Henderson, insisting that he was nba ready and a generational talent. That hypothetical move would have been an absolute disaster.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I think its becoming obvious that this isn't a playoff team.

We were WAY better last year post 7/11 trade because Bridges was playing at an incredible level.

I expected some regression, but he is not even close to that guy anymore. Teams have scouted him and figured out how to stop him completely.

Hes clearly just a role player. Nothing more.

That combined with Simmons basically retiring, Dinwiddie doing the same BS and Claxton regressing has sealed our fate.

We need to make a trade for a star or scale back. I don't think its possible to suck in the NYC market especially without our draft picks.

Need to cash in and make some type of trade. Cam Thomas is honestly the only positive I've taken out of this season.

[Hello Brooklyn]

The audacity of Vaughn to sit our starters last game was comical.

Resting is for STARS who need rest before the playoffs. Not for young players who can't even get their teams to .500.

What have these guys done to earn rest? This isn't LeBron or Embiid. Its a bunch of nobodies.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I'll trade Bridges to Houston in exchange of our own draft picks in a heartbeat...

No. The Nets ownership/management believe you can't tank in NYC. They're right. There's too much competition for entertainment. You're going to alienate a somewhat new fan base if you go through a multi-year rebuild.

We've tried consecutive all-in moves and look where it got us? I'd rather build through the draft like OKC.

No one can out this average team full of role players to the top. Not Mitchell, Siakam or any tier 2 players that can be had via trade.

I'll be willing to grow organically, and I really think that's the right way to do it. We can still showcase exciting young players such as Cam T to entertain the fans.

We can't rebuild like OKC because we don't even have our own draft picks for years to come.

That Harden deal was mind blowingly stupid in retrospect. Knowing KD/Kyrie's history we should have realized how quickly the whole thing could blow up.

I also just don't think its possible to tank in NYC.

Last time we sucked we become so utterly irrelevent that every single game became a literal road game and the stadium was basically half empty. We can't go back to that.

[ChuckS]

Ill keep saying it. Dinwiddie has to go.

100%. We can't get anything for him and don't have enough ball handlers though. Maybe the corpse of Chris Paul is available.

Weve got to have g league guys who can get the ball up the court. Whatever gets this guy gone im for.

Yours are two opinions I value, but disagree with as to performance. I believe this team would be considerably stronger with a high scoring point guard, which Spencer is not. But that is because we have no superstar to make all things right. I otherwise concur with every analyst I've read which list him as a top thirty, starting caliber, point guard. And I fear that his $20M salary might be too expensive currently to keep as a sixth man. Following will be reasons I disagree with the urgency for moving him. But I think his expiring contract is the largest we have to trade match, and there are enough teams that could use him. So frankly I see the potential for such a move.

Tonight was a typical example of why I am confused by the disdain. He had our best plus/minus (+12) and ran an offense in which every starter but one was a significant plus. There is something to be said for a point who is a good floor general, with excellent assists, at a very low turnover rate. Similarly, 82 games.com list only him, and Cam J (2d) as starters with positive net on/off court numbers for the year. We lost this game because of our bench performance, led by DSJ who has also been a positive this year, but in extended minutes was a minus 21, with 5 points.

The seeming disgust for Spence, if obviously not by JV etal, but a few fans, is made more mystifying by the almost cult-like adoration for a fine young scorer, Cam T. He was a minus 14 tonight, and 82games has him the second worst of our six starters this year at a minus 10.6 on/off court per game for the year. Someone else has pointed out his tunnel vision and only 2 assists per. But NBA.com lists him as our worst defender, 454th of 517 players at 120.2. Don't take any advanced defensive stats as gospel though. Most creators admit they have "noise". (That's a cute statistical admission that there are screw ups.) But I mention it only because I haven't a better measure, and I think it accurate regarding at least our team. Having said all that, I like the kid for his scoring, and probable potential.

That's about it for my confusion when I read these game threads. Just one other thing I found interesting:

82 games lists our 5 man units by minutes played.

Number one @138.5 minutes with Spence, CamT, Mikal, CJ and Nic, Offense 1.04 Defense 1.30 @ minus 66.

Number 2 @113.8 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Nic, Offense 1.22 Defense 1.16 @ plus 9

Number 3 @58.3 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Sharpe, Offense 1.38 Defense .93 at plus 48

[kane0801]

Unless you can develop Cam Thomas as PG which I highly doubt he can,this team is going nowhere with full of good role players but no true star player

[bubonicphoniks]

100%. We can't get anything for him and don't have enough ball handlers though. Maybe the corpse of Chris Paul is available.

Weve got to have g league guys who can get the ball up the court. Whatever gets this guy gone im for.

Yours are two opinions I value, but disagree with as to performance. I believe this team would be considerably stronger with a high scoring point guard, which Spencer is not. But that is because we have no superstar to make all things right. I otherwise concur with every analyst I've read which list him as a top thirty, starting caliber, point guard. And I fear that his $20M salary might be too expensive currently to keep as a sixth man. Following will be reasons I disagree with the urgency for moving him. But I think his expiring contract is the largest we have to trade match, and there are enough teams that could use him. So frankly I see the potential for such a move.

Tonight was a typical example of why I am confused by the disdain. He had our best plus/minus (+12) and ran an offense in which every starter but one was a significant plus. There is something to be said for a point who is a good floor general, with excellent assists, at a very low turnover rate. Similarly, 82 games.com list only him, and Cam J (2d) as starters with positive net on/off court numbers for the year. We lost this game because of our bench performance, led by DSJ who has also been a positive this year, but in extended minutes was a minus 21, with 5 points.

The seeming disgust for Spence, if obviously not by JV etal, but a few fans, is made more mystifying by the almost cult-like adoration for a fine young scorer, Cam T. He was a minus 14 tonight, and 82games has him the second worst of our six starters this year at a minus 10.6 on/off court per game for the year. Someone else has pointed out his tunnel vision and only 2 assists per. But NBA.com lists him as our worst defender, 454th of 517 players at 120.2. Don't take any advanced defensive stats as gospel though. Most creators admit they have "noise". (That's a cute statistical admission that there are screw ups.) But I mention it only because I haven't a better measure, and I think it accurate regarding at least our team. Having said all that, I like the kid for his scoring, and probable potential.

That's about it for my confusion when I read these game threads. Just one other thing I found interesting:

82 games lists our 5 man units by minutes played.

Number one @138.5 minutes with Spence, CamT, Mical, CJ and Nic, Offense 1.04 Defense 1.30 @ minus 66.

Number 2 @113.8 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Nic, Offense 1.22 Defense 1.16 @ plus 9

Number 3 @58.3 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Sharpe, Offense 1.38 Defense .93 at plus 48

I appreciate it and nice post.

I hate to side step all the data you have presentes but I suppose I will a bit when I say stats aren't everything. Spencer I think is clearly a stats compiler with his play style. He's a saavy guy and knows stats get paid, he also knows game winners/crunch time buckets get paid more and he has taken quite a few of them and come up short much more often than not whilst always calling his own number and not running any offense.

I think Spence has about as deep a "bag" as anyone. He really has it all on paper, shooting, size, smooth with the ball, etc. Once that package gets put together however I see a guy thats really playing for himself and not a guy I see them winning playoff games with etc. Id rather see this team have other guys develop. We know what Spencer is. When you call your own number you accept the results, hero or zero, and he has just used me up as far as good will goes with his shot forcing. Its just an every game thing now. Part of every game.

I personally don't see Cam T as the second coming. The kid is a bucket but he truly does have tunnel vision. I like him on the Nets but the dynamic has been perplexing.

I just think Spencers stats would be absorbed by the rest of the team and with higher efficiency. I think a lot of his game decisions are poor and I really just want to see him off this team despite the data youve presented.

[JoseRizal]

No. The Nets ownership/management believe you can't tank in NYC. They're right. There's too much competition for entertainment. You're going to alienate a somewhat new fan base if you go through a multi-year rebuild.

We've tried consecutive all-in moves and look where it got us? I'd rather build through the draft like OKC.

No one can out this average team full of role players to the top. Not Mitchell, Siakam or any tier 2 players that can be had via trade.

I'll be willing to grow organically, and I really think that's the right way to do it. We can still showcase exciting young players such as Cam T to entertain the fans.

OKC is in their current position because of SGA, a top 5 player that they didn't draft. They got lucky. No way would their core go anywhere without him.

We don't own our picks so it's not worth the gamble. I remember people here wanted to trade Bridges for Scoot Henderson, insisting that he was nba ready and a generational talent. That hypothetical move would have been an absolute disaster.

That's why I stated above that I'm willing to trade Bridges for our own picks. I'll subscribe to the idea of tanking ONLY if we get back our own traded picks from Houston.

[JoseRizal]

No. The Nets ownership/management believe you can't tank in NYC. They're right. There's too much competition for entertainment. You're going to alienate a somewhat new fan base if you go through a multi-year rebuild.

We've tried consecutive all-in moves and look where it got us? I'd rather build through the draft like OKC.

No one can out this average team full of role players to the top. Not Mitchell, Siakam or any tier 2 players that can be had via trade.

I'll be willing to grow organically, and I really think that's the right way to do it. We can still showcase exciting young players such as Cam T to entertain the fans.

We can't rebuild like OKC because we don't even have our own draft picks for years to come.

That Harden deal was mind blowingly stupid in retrospect. Knowing KD/Kyrie's history we should have realized how quickly the whole thing could blow up.

I also just don't think its possible to tank in NYC.

Last time we sucked we become so utterly irrelevent that every single game became a literal road game and the stadium was basically half empty. We can't go back to that.

That's why I mentioned in my previous post that I'm willing to trade Bridges to Houston just to get back our own picks.

At this point, I don't see any reason for this line-up to exist. The FO should be clear of their objective, either to go all-in or just blow it up. Prioritize players on their prime or developing the young ones. Something's got to give. They can no longer continue embarrassing themselves with an inferior coach, average team full of roleplayers and an indecisive GM...

[JoseRizal]

The audacity of Vaughn to sit our starters last game was comical.

Resting is for STARS who need rest before the playoffs. Not for young players who can't even get their teams to .500.

What have these guys done to earn rest? This isn't LeBron or Embiid. Its a bunch of nobodies.

I think that decision is not only his, but from the organization as well. However, I also think that JV is losing the locker room. No fire whatsoever from our players...

[Marvin Martian]

100%. We can't get anything for him and don't have enough ball handlers though. Maybe the corpse of Chris Paul is available.

Weve got to have g league guys who can get the ball up the court. Whatever gets this guy gone im for.

Yours are two opinions I value, but disagree with as to performance. I believe this team would be considerably stronger with a high scoring point guard, which Spencer is not. But that is because we have no superstar to make all things right. I otherwise concur with every analyst I've read which list him as a top thirty, starting caliber, point guard. And I fear that his $20M salary might be too expensive currently to keep as a sixth man. Following will be reasons I disagree with the urgency for moving him. But I think his expiring contract is the largest we have to trade match, and there are enough teams that could use him. So frankly I see the potential for such a move.

Tonight was a typical example of why I am confused by the disdain. He had our best plus/minus (+12) and ran an offense in which every starter but one was a significant plus. There is something to be said for a point who is a good floor general, with excellent assists, at a very low turnover rate. Similarly, 82 games.com list only him, and Cam J (2d) as starters with positive net on/off court numbers for the year. We lost this game because of our bench performance, led by DSJ who has also been a positive this year, but in extended minutes was a minus 21, with 5 points.

The seeming disgust for Spence, if obviously not by JV etal, but a few fans, is made more mystifying by the almost cult-like adoration for a fine young scorer, Cam T. He was a minus 14 tonight, and 82games has him the second worst of our six starters this year at a minus 10.6 on/off court per game for the year. Someone else has pointed out his tunnel vision and only 2 assists per. But NBA.com lists him as our worst defender, 454th of 517 players at 120.2. Don't take any advanced defensive stats as gospel though. Most creators admit they have "noise". (That's a cute statistical admission that there are screw ups.) But I mention it only because I haven't a better measure, and I think it accurate regarding at least our team. Having said all that, I like the kid for his scoring, and probable potential.

That's about it for my confusion when I read these game threads. Just one other thing I found interesting:

82 games lists our 5 man units by minutes played.

Number one @138.5 minutes with Spence, CamT, Mical, CJ and Nic, Offense 1.04 Defense 1.30 @ minus 66.

Number 2 @113.8 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Nic, Offense 1.22 Defense 1.16 @ plus 9

Number 3 @58.3 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Sharpe, Offense 1.38 Defense .93 at plus 48

5 man lineup data can be noisy. All it take is one run and suddenly the number 2 lineup is in the negative.

What is disturbing is that we don't have a lineup that clearly works on paper and in theory.

[Sharcm1]

The wizards are second to last in the league in defensive stats. They give up 126 ppg to other teams. And yet the nets had difficulty scoring against them and only scored 104 points. Brings me right back to my point about defense only being important when you can score too. They played crap defense and couldn’t score. Are we blaming Thomas again? Oh right he was on the bench and only played 24 mins. While bridges and Spencer chucked up shots

[ChuckS]

...That's about it for my confusion when I read these game threads. Just one other thing I found interesting:

82 games lists our 5 man units by minutes played.

Number one @138.5 minutes with Spence, CamT, Mikal, CJ and Nic, Offense 1.04 Defense 1.30 @ minus 66.

Number 2 @113.8 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Nic, Offense 1.22 Defense 1.16 @ plus 9

Number 3 @58.3 minutes with Spence, Mikal, CJ, DFS, and Sharpe, Offense 1.38 Defense .93 at plus 48

5 man lineup data can be noisy. All it take is one run and suddenly the number 2 lineup is in the negative.

What is disturbing is that we don't have a lineup that clearly works on paper and in theory.

I agree with the noise factor. But what NY columnists have spoken to is the losing since DFS was replaced by Cam in the starting lineup. The first and second team numbers seem illogical with our highest average scorer replacing a defensive specialist, even one who can shoot. You expect the defense to suffer with Cam, but the offense is also much worse. It could be indicative that Cam's game has affected the offense of the others, or at least Bridges. Hence JV's recent experimentation.

So your lineup problem is true, but I think usually OK until crunch time. When ahead our defensive lineups score less, making it harder to hold a small lead. And when behind and go to offense it seems whenever we score the other team also immediately scores, and too often with a three. Our free throws are oftentimes also an adventure. JV gets crucified whenever he takes Cam out, but no one seems to notice that with fouls and timeouts, he is usually back in for the next offensive play. I do not know if the problem has been because of our injury absences, but we obviously have not yet found a GS like "death squad". Maybe it is not possible without a superstar like Curry. Like you, though, I had hoped we would have come a lot closer by now. Lonnie Walker, albeit in more limited minutes, has had excellent own vs. opponent production, and on/off court numbers. Maybe he can help.

[Karate Diop]

I think the team needs to ask Bridges to shoot 20+ times a night.