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TheNetsFan wrote:

3pt_chucker wrote:One thing about the discourse around Ben that I feel like is never discussed is that fully healthy =/= great player.

His game is still severely flawed. Yes he can be healthy and be 90% as explosive as he was in Philly but has he been able to work on his game along with his body? For some reason it's a given that healthy Ben = All-Star which I really don't think is the case.

Questions I still have for him healthy or not:
1) Has he worked on his FTs? Idc what hand he uses. I just want him to shoot in the +70% range
2) Will he stay aggressive when/if he's not shooting FT's and take contact?
3) How can he score other that drives to the rim? How is is float game, midrange jumper/jump hook, posting midget guards?
4) Can he get back to being elite defensively possession by possession? Less dumb fouls?
5) Will/Can he defensively rebound in traffic defensively to help the team on the boards?

Those are my 5 biggest concerns. Yes, we all want him healthy but he still needs to be viable basketball player and with the contract he's on, he needs to provide at a minimum net positive play.

Not asking for All-Star Ben, just functionally useful Ben on both ends. Low bar but really hope he clears.

A fully healthy Ben is a great player. People are so hyper-focused on his flaws, and seem to forget that in 4 seasons, he was Rookie of the Year, 3x All-star, 2x All-NBA Defensive Team, 1x All-NBA, and DPOY runner up. Beyond just awards, he is 7th in career triple doubles among all active players (ahead of Kidd's pace at this age) and 3x in VORP top-20. Those are the accolades of a great player.

I agree Philly Ben is a great (albeit flawed) player, there is no disputing that. However, a lot a lot has happened since then and the eastern Conference/league as a whole is a lot better/deeper.

Yes, if he gets 90% of Philly Ben, that's a good player but not a franchise player, he'll prob never be that but can he get to #2-#3? For that he has to get better. With 2 yrs left the Nets have time to figure that out luckily and I'm sure they're hopefully they can fully figure out if he's a franchise corner stone or top salary fill for a big trade.

Physically it looks like Ben is back, he's playing like he's confident in his body in a way he wasn't even close to showing last season. Now if he can overcome his free throw issues, I think he will have a very nice comeback season.

Now if that happens, is he worth the max? Probably not, but he's also far away from the worst contract in the league like the naysayers were cackling about last season. A revitalised Ben has real value

More than anything else, that Ben dunk has me most excited. He couldn't get lift at all last year. His speed and lateral quickness wasn't bad, but he couldn't explode/leap. He's a much better player if he can play above the rim.

He looked completely different athletically. The fit next to Claxton is still an obvious question mark but I think if the defense is there then you can eat minutes in the RS with them, especially with how effective they can be in transition. There was a play where Claxton brought it up in transition and gave a dibble hand off to Simmons who then full speed slashed to the bucket. Those types of scoring opportunities should be there plenty in the RS.

Anyone else think he and Cam Thomas play off each other well?

He looked confident getting to the cup, and was spacing to the corner on offense.

Would be like a new off season addition for the nets if this is real

Yeah, I liked that Ben was spacing and more importantly make timely cuts off the ball down the lane.

If Clax and Ben are going to play together long term, or at least see if they can, one of them will have to be the "spacer" on offense when neither has the ball.

I def think Ben is more suited to be in that role because he has really good IQ. For instance he can attack the space and either get to the rim or make a good pass. Again we also saw last night that he can cut/move well off the ball. He can also dribble into a DHO and he's such a good screener/big body, that it can lead to a wide open shot. These are all things I much rather Ben doing than Clax.

Only thing he prob won't do is shoot the open corner 3 and hey, maybe he will but I don't really think it's critical as ppl will make it seem.

Simmons at the very least looks like he can be a key rotation player and the lead playmaker. CJ could have a breakout year because he's going to get a ton of good looks from Simmons. Thomas and Simmons also looks like it could be a good combination. Walker is another player who has the athleticism and shooting to work with Simmons also.

With the depth this team has, I don't think you even need 'All Star' Simmons for this to be a playoff caliber team. The random team put together last year was near .500 with quite a number of games they just gave away late, having a contributing Simmons could have easily turned some of those games into wins.

Simmons
Din
Bridges
CJ
Claxton

Thomas
Walker
O'Neale
DFS
Sharpe or DsJ (I think unless Sharpe takes a big step, DFS/Simmons would be back up center in most games)

That is a pretty solid regular season rotation. No star but depth to win you some games in the regular season.

Definitely looking like he's a big reason for some optimism this year. if you have a lead guard that can run an offense that's a big deal, especially if he can also play the kind of defense simmons used to play.

defense is ironically the biggest question i have with this roster. it should/can be elite. will it?

Netaman wrote:Definitely looking like he's a big reason for some optimism this year. if you have a lead guard that can run an offense that's a big deal, especially if he can also play the kind of defense simmons used to play.

defense is ironically the biggest question i have with this roster. it should/can be elite. will it?

the encouraging thing is his perimeter defense was good for the most part last year and looked even like old Simmons at times while he was clearly a ways off athletically.

Tha King wrote:

Netaman wrote:Definitely looking like he's a big reason for some optimism this year. if you have a lead guard that can run an offense that's a big deal, especially if he can also play the kind of defense simmons used to play.

defense is ironically the biggest question i have with this roster. it should/can be elite. will it?

the encouraging thing is his perimeter defense was good for the most part last year and looked even like old Simmons at times while he was clearly a ways off athletically.

im not worried about simmons defense, or really anyone individually. more of a coaching/scheme question. can they get the unit to have the impact necessary out of the individual talents?

Netaman wrote:

Tha King wrote:

Netaman wrote:Definitely looking like he's a big reason for some optimism this year. if you have a lead guard that can run an offense that's a big deal, especially if he can also play the kind of defense simmons used to play.

defense is ironically the biggest question i have with this roster. it should/can be elite. will it?

the encouraging thing is his perimeter defense was good for the most part last year and looked even like old Simmons at times while he was clearly a ways off athletically.

im not worried about simmons defense, or really anyone individually. more of a coaching/scheme question. can they get the unit to have the impact necessary out of the individual talents?

I think from a scheme standpoint, if there's a roster to just keep it simple with, it's this one. Just switch.

Clax can defend 1-5
Simmons 1-4
Bridges 1-3
DFS 2-4
O'Neale 2-4
CJ 2-4

That's most of the rotation with Din and Thomas the only limited defenders. So considering centers are not really focal points on most teams, you can pretty much switch everything and not really have to worry too much about matchups. Rebounding should improve with Simmons and the added athleticism to the rotation.

Folks are still vastly underestimating what a healthy Simmons brings to the table. Dude is an all nba level payer.

The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

Eyeamok wrote:The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

This is not disagreement per se. I just believe that being the same (or a close) version of his best self is a big plus for the team.

He is a point guard who has averaged 14.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, and 7.5 assists for his career, while being able to defend five positions. His lesser ability is scoring. But if I'm an opposing coach, I would not game plan for stopping a fifteen point scorer, and there is not much that can be done to stop a 6'11" 240 pounder from rebounding, if he has the aptitude, or someone with skill and exceptional court vision from assists. You just hope the rest of the team misses often. He looks like he has worked on his free throw shooting, but it hasn't been demonstrated so far in preseason, so sure I foul him until he makes me pay. But Wilt and Shaq among others have thrived in spite of such a problem. And KC Jones is in the hall of fame as a point guard (with I think 8 rings) who averaged about half of Ben's scoring. I'll be happy if he continues to attack the rim, without concern for being fouled, and I think he will.

He has already been a three time all-star. We currently have no other who has yet accomplished that even once. I understand that he is a primary concern because of his recent "health" issues, but I believe even more so because of the dire need for him to recover enough for the Nets to even threaten for a playoff berth. I place little stock in summer league or preseason play, but thus far it seems we need all the help he can give.

ChuckS wrote:

Eyeamok wrote:The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

This is not disagreement per se. I just believe that being the same (or a close) version of his best self is a big plus for the team.

He is a point guard who has averaged 14.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, and 7.5 assists for his career, while being able to defend five positions. His lesser ability is scoring. But if I'm an opposing coach, I would not game plan for stopping a fifteen point scorer, and there is not much that can be done to stop a 6'11" 240 pounder from rebounding, if he has the aptitude, or someone with skill and exceptional court vision from assists. You just hope the rest of the team misses often. He looks like he has worked on his free throw shooting, but it hasn't been demonstrated so far in preseason, so sure I foul him until he makes me pay. But Wilt and Shaq among others have thrived in spite of such a problem. And KC Jones is in the hall of fame as a point guard (with I think 8 rings) who averaged about half of Ben's scoring. I'll be happy if he continues to attack the rim, without concern for being fouled, and I think he will.

He has already been a three time all-star. We currently have no other who has yet accomplished that even once. I understand that he is a primary concern because of his recent "health" issues, but I believe even more so because of the dire need for him to recover enough for the Nets to even threaten for a playoff berth. I place little stock in summer league or preseason play, but thus far it seems we need all the help he can give.

Again. Why are you assuming that Philly is Ben's ceiling?

sweetlou23 wrote:

ChuckS wrote:

Eyeamok wrote:The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

This is not disagreement per se. I just believe that being the same (or a close) version of his best self is a big plus for the team.

He is a point guard who has averaged 14.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, and 7.5 assists for his career, while being able to defend five positions. His lesser ability is scoring. But if I'm an opposing coach, I would not game plan for stopping a fifteen point scorer, and there is not much that can be done to stop a 6'11" 240 pounder from rebounding, if he has the aptitude, or someone with skill and exceptional court vision from assists. You just hope the rest of the team misses often. He looks like he has worked on his free throw shooting, but it hasn't been demonstrated so far in preseason, so sure I foul him until he makes me pay. But Wilt and Shaq among others have thrived in spite of such a problem. And KC Jones is in the hall of fame as a point guard (with I think 8 rings) who averaged about half of Ben's scoring. I'll be happy if he continues to attack the rim, without concern for being fouled, and I think he will.

He has already been a three time all-star. We currently have no other who has yet accomplished that even once. I understand that he is a primary concern because of his recent "health" issues, but I believe even more so because of the dire need for him to recover enough for the Nets to even threaten for a playoff berth. I place little stock in summer league or preseason play, but thus far it seems we need all the help he can give.

Again. Why are you assuming that Philly is Ben's ceiling?

Why did you assume that based on what I wrote? " I just believe that being the same (or a close) version of his best self is a big plus for the team."

You are welcome to argue potential. I just suggested that the historical facts of his thus far accomplishments, if equaled, or nearly, would be good enough for me and a boon for the team.

sweetlou23 wrote:

ChuckS wrote:

Eyeamok wrote:The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

This is not disagreement per se. I just believe that being the same (or a close) version of his best self is a big plus for the team.

He is a point guard who has averaged 14.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, and 7.5 assists for his career, while being able to defend five positions. His lesser ability is scoring. But if I'm an opposing coach, I would not game plan for stopping a fifteen point scorer, and there is not much that can be done to stop a 6'11" 240 pounder from rebounding, if he has the aptitude, or someone with skill and exceptional court vision from assists. You just hope the rest of the team misses often. He looks like he has worked on his free throw shooting, but it hasn't been demonstrated so far in preseason, so sure I foul him until he makes me pay. But Wilt and Shaq among others have thrived in spite of such a problem. And KC Jones is in the hall of fame as a point guard (with I think 8 rings) who averaged about half of Ben's scoring. I'll be happy if he continues to attack the rim, without concern for being fouled, and I think he will.

He has already been a three time all-star. We currently have no other who has yet accomplished that even once. I understand that he is a primary concern because of his recent "health" issues, but I believe even more so because of the dire need for him to recover enough for the Nets to even threaten for a playoff berth. I place little stock in summer league or preseason play, but thus far it seems we need all the help he can give.

Again. Why are you assuming that Philly is Ben's ceiling?

Why would you not assume that the best Ben was Ben in Philly. We have about 5 years of data on him. I think it is pretty safe to say he is who he is. He might be good enough to make the NBA all defensive team. But with the game on the line last second shot or drive to the hoop, do you really want the ball in his hands? As I said before I think he is going to have a good season. But I believe that good season is mostly motivated by wanting to sign another nice contract, not because he truly wants to be a better player. IMHO

So how are we feeling so far about Ben?

It's only been 4 games, but it seems like we're seeing a much more complete guy who has regained some confidence back. But not quite fully there.

Seems like he's doing OK on offense. Would really love to see just a little more on offense in terms of attacking/backing guys down. I know he worries about fouls a lot still, but hopefully that gets under control. Would like to see him get back around to 14-16ppg, like he did in Philly.

Defensively he seems very comfortable. That block he had in miami the other night was awesome.

TBH I've only watched parts of games so far and not a complete game, so I'll have to watch tonight v the Bulls.

But a question to pose... if Ben is playing much better... do we try to sell high and trade while it looks like he's regained him form? I still don't know if he's the best fit for a lineup with CT/Bridges/CJ/Clax (although I know a few have missed time there). Do we want another guy on the court who can get shots off from anywhere? Maybe there's a better fit out there that can be had??

If he wasn’t a max salary player, the centerpiece of the Harden trade, and wasn’t a semi-recent #1 overall pick with a weird history, he would be a coveted player if he actually keeps this up with some slight improvement by knocking the rust off.

His shooting and free throws are so bad though, he’s always going to be a liability late in games, especially paired with a guy like Clax.

I am also not convinced he’ll keep it up.

But if you simply forget about his salary, his history and how he wound up on this roster, it would be easier to appreciate him as a great 30mpg high level role player.

Eyeamok wrote:The problem with Ben is this he can be good but teams know what to expect from him at his best. And when they defend against that he has nothing new to give you.

I expect him to play well because he wants a new contract. But playing well and being a better version of his best self? I highly doubt that.

It's a multi-phase process... Step 1 is to get back to what he used to be, if he can do that we can then start dissecting what he needs to improve.

These next two years are strictly an experiment for the Nets when it comes to Simmons. It's free money almost.