First! Ok, so what are the chances the Leafs make the PO?!

[MAS]

Do the Leafs really deserve to be in the playoffs? That's the 3rd lead they've blown in the third period now. My heart can't take this sh*t!!!

This team will do absolutely nothing even if they do make the playoffs.

Still sticking to my guarantee that the Leafs won't make it. The Habs will take them down if the Isles don't.

I dub thee "Holmes jr" (ask baseball people if you don't know why)

[GQStylin]

I'm probably the biggest Leafs fan on this board (And I've probably been around cheering for them longer than most you whippersnappers), but I guess I find it difficult to not critisize this team.

It's hard to throw your undying support and trust behind a Leafs team that continually seems to want to do things the hard way. Seeing them struggle like this just gets me frustrated and makes me sad. I wanted to believe in this team, I really wanted to believe that they can do something this year. But this team has done nothing to inspire confidence that they will do anything in the playoffs even if they should miraculiously make it.

Its not like this is a Buffalo or a Sens team that's well built and you can believe is capable of going all the way. This version of the Leafs just isn't talented or constructed well enough to do anything beyond giving fans a round or two of playoff fun before bowing out for yet another year. Maybe for alot of people that's good enough, but for me I guess seen it enough to be sick of it.

You can argue that the Sens have done jacksh*t since they've gotten good, but if you're a Sens fan at least you can say your team is a legit cup contender. And at least you know that if they play to the level that their capable of, then they have a good shot at the cup. For the Leafs, it always seems they have to play above what their capable of in order to get anywhere.

Like I said, I've watched alot of Leafs games in my time and I've yet to see them ice a truly talented team. The only reason I want the Leafs to fail now is because I'm hoping......or more like praying and begging that this or a couple more bad seasons will finally bring about a housecleaning that's long overdue.

Maybe that's just a pipedream, but seeing them continually struggling like this year after year is so damn sad!

[pdawg81]

I'm probably the biggest Leafs fan on this board (And I've probably been around cheering for them longer than most you whippersnappers), but I guess I find it difficult to not critisize this team.

Maybe that's just a pipedream, but seeing them continually struggling like this year after year is so damn sad!

You make me sick because you're full of BS. You call yourself the biggest Leaf fan out there yet now when the struggle you're a critic? You're the reason Leaf fans have such a bad name as bandwagon jumpers. Don't break your ankles.

[GQStylin]

You make me sick because you're full of BS. You call yourself the biggest Leaf fan out there yet now when the struggle you're a critic?

Do you even know what you're talking about??

First off, when have the Leafs NOT struggled in the playoffs? Tell me when did the Leafs last enter the playoffs as a favorite? How about like NEVER. Seriously I've watched a tonne of seasons and I've never heard any hockey experts say that the Leafs were favorites to win the cup in any year. Sure they were 'contenders' but NEVER the favorite. Why? Because the Leafs were never good enough.

Secondly, you say 'yet now when they struggle you're a critic?' How about 40 YEARS OF STRUGGLING?? Have you somehow missed hockey fans in the rest of Canada yelling 67' 67' 67', '40 years, 40 years' etc??

And you're telling me I'm being overly critical of them?? Tell me, if 40 years without even an appearance in the Stanley Cup finals doesn't warrant criticism, then please tell me what does?

You're the reason Leaf fans have such a bad name as bandwagon jumpers. Don't break your ankles.

Bandwagon jumpers??? Are you serious??? Go to the Raps forum and read the threads where Raps fans keep telling Leafs fans how STUPID they are for supporting a hockey team that hasn't won a championship in 40 years.

Fact is, people (especially fans of other Canadian hockey teams) don't hate Leafs fans because they're bandwagon jumpers. They hate Leafs fans because they have a huge fan base, cheer like their team has won 10 straight stanley cups and get ridiculous amounts of coverage despite having done nothing in the past 40 years. That's why people hate Leafs fans.

In hockey, the Leafs have the largest fan base of any team in the NHL by far. Practically every arena the Leafs go to play, you see at least a few Leafs jerseys in the crowd. And why is that? Because Leafs fans like me follow them no matter what.

I suspect you're still a pretty young guy/girl, so you don't remember the 80s Leafs under former owner Harold Ballard. Those 80s teams SUCKED and they missed the playoffs often and you know what? Maple Leaf Gardens still sold out and CBC still got good ratings when the Leafs played.

Sorry, but you're way out to lunch. Leafs fans are some of the most loyal if not the most loyal fans you'll find.

So yeah, I might be criticizing them a tonne recently and people might be thinking if I'm such a huge Leafs fan, why do I bash them and want them to fail? I guess after watching them for 27+ years and following them seriously for 17+ years, I guess I just haven't seen this team improve much in that time and I want change.

I'm not going to ever stop rooting for them, but I just really want this team to get better and not keep on being a treadmill team as Raps fans so enjoy pointing out. So yeah, I'm negative and I may come off as harsh on them, but again please tell, if 40 years of fertility doesn't warrant criticism then what will??

[MAS]

What you gotta understand about this team is that we've were legit cup contenders for about 8 years under Quinn our window closed that's it.

The same will happen to Ottawa (especially with the cap) and the other teams will fall eventually.

My frustration with the team is that they still believe that team we have is good enough and it's painfully obvious that it isn't. Like if a general fan can see that then they should be able to do that.

One of these years (some time relatively soon) the team will crash and burn, without the help of trading everyone and I just hope then they'll take the route of the Flyers and just build for the future when it happens

[pdawg81]

Criticism is warrented; to bash your team is not acceptable as "the biggest Leaf fan out there." Yes I understand they haven't won since '67, but you decided in 2007 to bash the team because you thought they were going to take it all this year? By your philosophy what would you have done as a Red Sox fan (before they won in '04) or a Cubs fan? A loyal fan is entitled to criticize his/her team, but like I said loyal fans just don't bash the team when they're down. I flew to NYC on Sunday to watch them play in MSG; does that make me more loyal than the next guy? No, but what it does say is you support the team through all times. The current regime is not responsible for the Ballard years so it is is what it is. For the most part since 93 the Leafs have had a competitive team on the ice and on more than one occasion have had a shot at the cup.

[AOC]

They were a great team during the Quinn years, but they were never legit Cup contenders.

The only Leafs team that could be considered legit Cup contenders were the early 90's teams which, ironically, didn't really have ownership in place.

It may seem absurd for a Leafs fan to want his/her team to miss the playoffs, crash and burn etc. but lets face it, the Leafs aren't like any other team. If other teams struggle, their fans know that their management won't accept it and will do everything to make sure that the ship is righted. With the Leafs it won't happen unless things get really bad and the bottomline is affected.

[GQStylin]

What you gotta understand about this team is that we've were legit cup contenders for about 8 years under Quinn our window closed that's it.

As AOC said below (or above depending how you look at it) the teams under Quinn were pretty good, but not what I would consider real cup contenders. Maybe its just semantics, but I haven't ever gone into the playoffs recently thinking the Leafs are favorites, but merely that they are contenders with a reasonable shot of winning.

The same will happen to Ottawa (especially with the cap) and the other teams will fall eventually.

I really believe that Ottawa will continue to stay on top even under the cap system. I think their management is good enough that they will move players who become too high priced for good return and the guys they need to sign, they will sign.

Just look at Detroit, they were huge spenders pre-cap era and even after the cap was in place they're still near the top of the league and able to compete for the cup each year because of good management.

My frustration with the team is that they still believe that team we have is good enough and it's painfully obvious that it isn't. Like if a general fan can see that then they should be able to do that.

One of these years (some time relatively soon) the team will crash and burn, without the help of trading everyone and I just hope then they'll take the route of the Flyers and just build for the future when it happens

I wish the Leafs would take the Flyers route too. As much as I hate those guys, their management had the guts to throw it in and trade the assets they had for good return. I can see the Flyers being good again in perhaps just two or three years. If their young guys develop well and they're in playoff contention, I can see the Flyers make a few moves for vets and they will be back in as cup contenders while the Leafs will probably remain as they are now.

[GQStylin]

Criticism is warrented; to bash your team is not acceptable as "the biggest Leaf fan out there." Yes I understand they haven't won since '67, but you decided in 2007 to bash the team because you thought they were going to take it all this year?

I didn't just decide to start bashing the Leafs in 2007. I've only started posting here abit more seriously since 2005 and I've been calling for change way back then. If my old posts are still around, I'm pretty sure you'll see that I've been hoping the Leafs would rebuild from even back then.

And outside of realgm and the internet, I've been telling my friends since the end of the 2001-02 season after we got beat by the Canes that we should just blow it all up and start over. So for me, its been at least 5+ years that I've been calling for the Leafs to rebuild.

By your philosophy what would you have done as a Red Sox fan (before they won in '04) or a Cubs fan? A loyal fan is entitled to criticize his/her team, but like I said loyal fans just don't bash the team when they're down. I flew to NYC on Sunday to watch them play in MSG; does that make me more loyal than the next guy? No, but what it does say is you support the team through all times.

I bash the Leafs because I don't see change. I'm sure there are plenty of Sox fans (pre-championship) and Cubs fans were bashing their teams too. If you go to any Cubs forums I'm sure by the end of each season you'll read Cubs fans saying 'just lose already and get this season over with', 'this is horrible, just tank it already' etc etc etc. Does this make them any less of a Cubs fan? No. They're still there cheering for their team year after year. They're just frustrated that their team isn't going anywhere and they want to get things over with for the year.

Look at the Raps board here even. For the past few years, how much bashing have you seen on that board? How about like INSANE amounts of bashing? Fire O'neill, fire Mitchell, fire Babcock, get rid of Peddie, trade every single player on our roster etc. Yet we both know that those Raps fans are fanatically passionate about their team and they only want the best for that franchaise despite all their negativity and bashing.

Even now when the Raps are finally successful again, there's still bashing going on with TJ and Bosh and Mopete etc. when they're not doing well.

Bringing up what AOC said, this is the Leafs we're talking about not Nashville or Atlanta or Florida where being a crappy team for a few years is going to start affecting your attendance and TV ratings. The Leafs are pretty much bulletproof when it comes to this and maybe it must take a huge crash before the Leafs make changes. And that's what I'm hoping for, moderate if not huge changes.

The current regime is not responsible for the Ballard years so it is is what it is. For the most part since 93 the Leafs have had a competitive team on the ice and on more than one occasion have had a shot at the cup.

True, the Ballard years are in the past. But since his death the Leafs have only had decent success and still haven't gotten back to the cups finals yet in 17+ years. The lack of steady improvement with the Leafs is what I'm pissed about. We had great runs in 93' and 94' and then we suck again. Then we comeback moderately and then we suck yet again. But through all this time we were never considered cup favorites.

Why I'm bashing the Leafs and Leafs management is because since the mid to late 90s we've had a chance to get this team on the right track and make it great again, but we haven't. We had the chance again after 2002 and we didn't.

Look at the Redwings. Before their recent cup wins, they hadn't won a cup since '55. And they were utter crap throughout the 1970s and 80s, even moreso than the Leafs if that were possible. But guess what? Since the 90s they've been improving ever since and became a powerhouse in the mid to late 90s and have remained on top ever since even in the cap era.

Why can't the Leafs be like that? They had just as much time and money as the Redwings, just not the same management. And they still don't have a good management team now to make the Leafs great again. That's why I'm frustrated and bashing the Leafs. They had the chance to rebuild all that time and they didn't. They have the chance now to do it and they aren't. I just want the Leafs to take a few years to rebuild properly so that they can be successful for years and years to come with REAL chances at winning the cup.

[Garbage2Hero]

They do have a pretty good chance now. Tonight they're playing the islanders and currently losing 3-2. If they can even go to OT they tie Montreal..since we all know there going to lose to the rangers. So basically the 8th seed will be determined in saturdays thriller between the canadiens and leafs. Go Leafs Go !

[RingItUp!]

Not very good.

[MAS]

I firmly believe that from 2002-2004 any of those teams could have made the Stanley Cup Finals if we got the right bounces, which we never did so oh well

[The-Insider]

I firmly believe that from 2002-2004 any of those teams could have made the Stanley Cup Finals if we got the right bounces, which we never did so oh well

I was dieing to see Aki Berg and Jyrki Lumme carrying the cup

[Oden08]

50% chance