New York Knicks Forum Resources - Knicks CBA/Stats/Info/Links

[cgmw]

The Jason Kidd thread is all over the place.

Can somebody please explain how his retirement affects the cap situation? Specifically will his salary be wiped off the books and does it bring us closer to getting below the Luxury Tax threshold or "apron" or whatever it is we need to do to be allowed a sign & trade?

[seren]

The Jason Kidd thread is all over the place.

Can somebody please explain how his retirement affects the cap situation? Specifically will his salary be wiped off the books and does it bring us closer to getting below the Luxury Tax threshold or "apron" or whatever it is we need to do to be allowed a sign & trade?

It depends.

If he retired against the team's wishes, it would be forfeiting his salary. That would make his salary be wiped off the books.

We would be at 73.9 million for guaranteed salary assuming JR opts out. That is right at the apron. However, I do not know whether open roster spots count against apron, ie our first round pick as well as unfilled roster spots.

[R-DAWG]

The Jason Kidd thread is all over the place.

Can somebody please explain how his retirement affects the cap situation? Specifically will his salary be wiped off the books and does it bring us closer to getting below the Luxury Tax threshold or "apron" or whatever it is we need to do to be allowed a sign & trade?

It depends.

If he retired against the team's wishes, it would be forfeiting his salary. That would make his salary be wiped off the books.

We would be at 73.9 million for guaranteed salary assuming JR opts out. That is right at the apron. However, I do not know whether open roster spots count against apron, ie our first round pick as well as unfilled roster spots.

can his contract be traded? If he hasn't "officially retired" the Knicks could potentially turn him into a $3m expiring if he agree's to a buyout for $3m it's a win for him.

[seren]

It depends.

If he retired against the team's wishes, it would be forfeiting his salary. That would make his salary be wiped off the books.

We would be at 73.9 million for guaranteed salary assuming JR opts out. That is right at the apron. However, I do not know whether open roster spots count against apron, ie our first round pick as well as unfilled roster spots.

can his contract be traded? If he hasn't "officially retired" the Knicks could potentially turn him into a $3m expiring if he agree's to a buyout for $3m it's a win for him.

if he hasn't officially retired, absolutely. obviously the team that receives him will have to pay for his contract.

but again, my guess is there is a gentleman's agreement. heck, i'd put money on the knicks perfectly knowing he wouldn't finish his contract when they signed him in the first place. people need to remember kidd was making 8 million a year last year.

most likely scenario is we waive and stretch his contract and call it a day. probably keep him around for player development.

i honestly don't think the management will push hard to get under apron. this is a tax/roster spot move and maybe a way of keeping pablo long term.

[Thugger HBC]

The Jason Kidd thread is all over the place.

Can somebody please explain how his retirement affects the cap situation? Specifically will his salary be wiped off the books and does it bring us closer to getting below the Luxury Tax threshold or "apron" or whatever it is we need to do to be allowed a sign & trade?

It depends.

If he retired against the team's wishes, it would be forfeiting his salary. That would make his salary be wiped off the books.

We would be at 73.9 million for guaranteed salary assuming JR opts out. That is right at the apron. However, I do not know whether open roster spots count against apron, ie our first round pick as well as unfilled roster spots.

open roster spots are counted at min salary and has a hold, and the 1st round pick has a cap hold.

Even though JR will opt out he has a cap hold as well, the only way to remove it is to renounce his rights.

[J9Starks3]

Someone will surely have more knowledge and give a better explanation than I can... but if we look at the numbers after Kidd's money comes off the books.

We will have 7 people with guaranteed contracts going into next year.
Amare - $21,679,893
Melo - $21,490,000
Tyson - $14,100,773
Felton - $4,180,000
Camby - $3,383,733
Novak - $3,750,001
Shumpert - $1,797,600

That leaves us with about $70,382,040 in salary for those 7 guys.

We also have the Qualifying Offer for Prigioni of $988,872, bringing us up to $71,370,912.

I will assume we will not renounce JR Smith, but will renounce all other contracts. His hold will be 130% of his current salary, making his hold $3,648,388. We also will have a hold for our #24 pick which is about $1,243,080 (#24 salary last year).

That brings us up to 10 spots, meaning well have 2 spots left at a minimum salary hold of $473,604.

That brings our total cap at $77,209,588 or roughly $3-4 million over the apron. That would mean to do a S&T we would need to have the other team take that much back more than we take back or wed have to have Camby retire and renounce JR or something of that nature.

[Thugger HBC]

Most of that looks good but I think JR's hold is his opt out amount.

Add the QO for Cope and those min salaries should be higher at about 850 a clip.

[J9Starks3]

Most of that looks good but I think JR's hold is his opt out amount.

Add the QO for Cope and those min salaries should be higher at about 850 a clip.

Yeah, I dont think those numbers change the real numbers much as it is... I was using the 130% for JR because according the CBA FAQ page, any early bird free agent is 130% of his previous year salary and the minimum salary for an undrafted rookie is the $470K number...

[Tron Carter]

will jr staying or walking have any effect on our tax apron?

[Thugger HBC]

will jr staying or walking have any effect on our tax apron?

Yes.

If the team keeps his cap hold then their salary is higher, if they renounce him it's lower by about 3 mil in either case.

As far as the apron goes, unless the team doesn't go far enough under, i can't see an impact player bring brought via s&t thats worth hardcapping the team, and to do so, you'd have to imo get rif of at least 1 big contract...probably two to fill out the roster properly.

[Tron Carter]

will jr staying or walking have any effect on our tax apron?

Yes.

If the team keeps his cap hold then their salary is higher, if they renounce him it's lower by about 3 mil in either case.

As far as the apron goes, unless the team doesn't go far enough under, i can't see an impact player bring brought via s&t thats worth hardcapping the team, and to do so, you'd have to imo get rif of at least 1 big contract...probably two to fill out the roster properly.

appreciate you clearing that up for me..

[DowNY]

Can Copeland be traded if he signs the QO?

[spaceballer]

Can Copeland be traded if he signs the QO?

Yes, but with the following caveats:

1) A newly signed free agent is not allowed to be traded before December 15th or 3 months have passed from signing, whichever is later.
2) A player on a 1yr contract who will get Early Bird (or full Bird) rights at the end of that contract may not be traded without his permission.

Both restrictions apply in this case.

A QO is a 1 yr contract, and Copeland would have early bird rights at the end of this contract (2 yrs of service on the Knicks).

So in order to trade Copeland if he signs the QO, you must seek his permission, and you may not trade him prior to December 15th in any case.

If you want to trade him immediately, it would have to be with a sign-and-trade contract, not a QO or signing/re-signing him. Signing or re-signing a free agent, whether QO or otherwise, means you must wait before you can trade him.

That wait may be forever, since you may not trade him without his permission since he would be on a 1yr contract with Early Bird Rights at the end.

But if he approves of the trade, and you wait till after December 15th, then yes, you may trade him after he signs a QO.

[kosmovitelli]

Lots of questions about Jason Kidd in other threads so here's an answer :

question and maybe this has already been answered and if so you can close this thread but do we get the 6 mill he had left on the two years of his contract back on our books or no??

What happens when a player wants to retire ?

1) The team and the player can’t reach an agreement
The player wants to retire but his team either don’t want to let him retire because they consider him valuable to the team or they don’t want to pay him for nothing.
The player has one option, he can retire on a voluntary basis (without the consent of his team).
In that case, he needs to file his retirement papers to the league’s office immediately, he’s placed on the league's Voluntarily Retired list and his team no longer has an obligation to pay him (team can remove his remaining salary from their books) and the player cannot return to the league for one year. If the players wants to return before the one-year anniversary of his retirement then just like he filed his retirement papers to the league’s office, he needs to notice the league he wants to unretire and it will be up to the Board of Governors to decide his fate. A unanimous decision is required (it’s a way to ensure his original team agrees).

2) The team and the player reached an agreement
It’s similar to a buy-out agreement, the player and the team only need to reach an agreement on the guaranteed portion of the remaining salary of the contract. The player can accept to alter the amount of compensation protection, the guarantee can be reduced and even completely eliminated. It’s legal when done as part of a buy-out agreement. That’s probably what the Knicks and Kidd did.
For what it’s worth, the team can also continue to pay the player even if he announced his retirement, in that case, his salary will remain on the team’s books. It’s a negotiation between the team and the player before his retirement. Kidd could have negotiated a more lucrative exit (as he had two years remaining on his contract, he could have offered the team to pay him next season and he would give up the last season) but he's been fair and accepted he was no longer worth $3 million per season and there was no way he could honor the contract so he gave up all his money.

Jason Kidd had two-years and $6,180,00 remaining on his contract. Knicks will save $3 million per season the next two years (plus additional savings from future luxury tax payments).

Here's an update :


Charges for incomplete roster (fewer than 12) aren't included because it depends what the Knicks will do with their free agents. When it comes to the taxpayer's MLE, the apron, sign and trades, cap holds for free agents are excluded so (as the Knicks can sign their first round pick during the july moratorium) the Knicks will likely have 8 players under contract when free agency really begins and teams can officially sign free agents (after the july moratoriul) so you can probably add 4 charges (equal to minimum salary) for incomplete roster. And those charges would likely make the Knicks exceed the apron (even if they were to renounce all their free agents, which is doubtful and unlikely). Basically, Kidd retiring will probably have no real impact on the Knicks salary cap situation next summer.

About the 2013 first round pick, I used 120% of the rookie scale amount.

[seren]

Kosmo, do you know what happens when you waive and stretch a partially guaranteed contract? I am asking for Camby. If the team buys him out, does only the guaranteed part of his contract is spreaded to five seasons?

[kosmovitelli]

Kosmo, do you know what happens when you waive and stretch a partially guaranteed contract? I am asking for Camby. If the team buys him out, does only the guaranteed part of his contract is spreaded to five seasons?

Yes. Only the guaranteed portion of the contract is spread but it's not an obligation to strech the cap hit to match the five-year payment schedule. The team can elect not to stretch the salary cap charge, it's at the team's discretion.

[seren]

Kosmo, do you know what happens when you waive and stretch a partially guaranteed contract? I am asking for Camby. If the team buys him out, does only the guaranteed part of his contract is spreaded to five seasons?

Yes. Only the guaranteed portion of the contract is spread but it's not an obligation to strech the cap hit to match the five-year payment schedule. The team can elect not to stretch the salary cap charge, it's at the team's discretion.

So in principal, they can stretch the 5.5 million dollar remaining guaranteed contract to five years despite the second year is only partially guaranteed? That would reduce his cap hit to approximately 1.1 million for the upcoming season.

I can see them doing that to reduce tax amount if they are not planning to trade him.

[johnnywishbone]

What's the value of the trade exception we acquired for Brewer? i.e. can you provide a hypothetical scenario where we could use it?

[riter]

speaking of exceptions, can we use an exception along with Camby,Novak, and perhaps White to New orleans for
Gordon? I believe not only does the math work but we'll have enough to make Camby and expiring. is this correct.
Yes, this would be a salary dump. but we might have to send shump. if Gordon is healthy I would probably do this and use the mini mle(or part of it) on a big.(Blatche)

[spaceballer]

speaking of exceptions, can we use an exception along with Camby,Novak, and perhaps White to New orleans for
Gordon? I believe not only does the math work but we'll have enough to make Camby and expiring. is this correct.
Yes, this would be a salary dump. but we might have to send shump. if Gordon is healthy I would probably do this and use the mini mle(or part of it) on a big.(Blatche)

No, you cannot combine an exception with a bunch of players to trade for a more expensive player.

A trade is either simultaneous: allows you to aggregate a bunch of cheaper players to trade for a more expensive player. The player you take back may be up to 125% plus $100K of the aggregate salary if you're a taxpaying team.

Or it is non-simultaneous: you trade a player for a trade exception. Then you use the exception to receive another player at a later time, possible from third team. The player you take back with the exception may only be up to 100% + $100K. Trade exceptions can only be used to receive players in trade (including sign-and-trade) but may not be used to sign free agents.

You can't combine the two.

A simultaneous trade allows for salary aggregation (as well as a higher salary takeback bonus), a non-simultaneous trade doesn't. You can't combine exceptions to get a more expensive player, and you can't combine exceptions with other players to trade for a more expensive player.