Ewing trade....

[J0rdan4life42o]

Ward
Houston
Sprewell
Amare
Camby

*This is if the whole Spree situation didn't blow up.

[doctor fite]

i truly hate scott layden... he ruined our franchise... and i hate dolan because he let layden ruin our franchise.

i really hope both of them die in a fiery crash with one another's cars one day.

[pwayknicks]

You guys need to stop putting Amare in as if we would have drafted him, there were no rumors of anything leading up to the draft that Amare was even on the Knicks radar, during that time it was all Lampe and Nene talks of coming to the Knicks in that draft...

Another thing....you want to talk about what if....what if Mcdyess was healthy and Dolan didnt force Layden to deal spree...

Dice
Spree
Houston

remind you of a big 3 out in boston?


Now before you begin the argument of no1 ever thought Dice was going to be healthy, well you know Marcus Camby wasnt MR health while as a Knick, he never played more then 65 games as a Knick and was an injury waiting to happen....

To give up and Injury prone big man, and a mid lottery pick for a player who was a consistent 20 and 10 and actually played DEFENSE was a very hard thing to pass up on, especially when he got a pick in return as well...

It was Injury prone big man(camby) and 7th pick for 20 and 10 big man who plays defense(with injury concerns) and the 21st pick....a drop off in 14 picks, but a big time player came with it....It was a risk that was worth it, looking back on it, it didnt work out....because of Cambys good health, Dices bad health and what the pick COULD have been....but if you want to play the COULD have been game, instead of Frank the Tank we could have had Carlos Boozer...whose looking pretty dam good...so dont give me the could have been ish...

but Yes the Ewing trade was horrible....the Dice trade you can see it from the knicks point of view and why they did it....it just didnt work out...

[kosmovitelli]

My question why did the Knicks trade him(besides age) and what became of all the picks that he was traded for?

Pat Ewing had a no trade clause so he was untradeable unless he wanted out.
It all goes back to the playoffs 2000 when the Knicks were eliminated by the Pacers in the East Finals. After being 0-2 with Ewing, the Knicks came back with an amazing fierce desire to win. They won both games at the Garden to tie the series 2-2. It seems they played better without Ewing. I remember LJ being unbelievable during those two games. Rik Smits even joked he was dying for Pat's return since the Pacers had a much easier task when he was on the floor. The press begged JVG to keep the team intact and rest Ewing, keep him for the Finals.
Then the series went back to Indiana. Ewing returned. It worked well in the beginning, we were up by 19 in the first quarter. But the Pacers quickly adjusted and won easily that game to take a 3-2 lead. They also won game 6 to advance to the NBA Finals.

Here's a recap of the series :

Game 1 Tue./ May 23, 2000 Away 8:30 pm L - 102-88
Game 2 Thu./ May 25, 2000 Away 8:30 pm L - 88-84
Game 3 Sat./ May 27, 2000 Home 3:30 pm W - 98-95
Game 4 Mon./ May 29, 2000 Home 5:30 pm W - 91-89
Game 5 Wed./ May 31, 2000 Away 9:00 pm L - 88-79
Game 6 Fri./ June 2, 2000 Home 7:00 pm L - 93-80

Ewing participated in game 1, 5 and 6 where the Knicks lost by 9 points or more.
Ewing injured his foot in game 2 and didn't play the rest of the game. The game where he didn't play much or at all (game 2, 3 and 4), there was only a 2 to 4 point difference, pretty close games. We lost game 2 but with one minute left we were tied then Reggie made a basket and Spree couldn't hit the shot to go to OT. Then we won game 3 and 4. We were outplayed in game 5 and 6.

After that the fans and the press were pretty harsh against Ewing. They thought he cost us the series and another trip to the Finals.
While it was true Ewing probably cost us the series, it was unfair to him because the blame was on Jeff Van Gundy, not Pat.

In the Bahamas late july 2007, Ewing said he wanted to play 3 more years, meaning he was asking for a 2yr extension.
Obviously it made so sense for the Knicks to offer him that kind of extension he was looking for. Then with his agent (David Falk), they tried to pressure the Knicks : extension or trade.
As Layden and Checketts were kind people they accepted to grant him his wish since they didn't want to offfer an extension.
Obviously they should have forced him to honor the final season of his contract. Or they should have traded him for a same expiring contract.
Checketts, Layden and Van Gundy (who specifically asked for Luc Longley to be included in the deal) made the massive blunder of trading him for a bunch of useless overpaid bums like Rice, Longley and other aging, declining and often injured misfits looking for a last hefty paycheck.

Back to the question, the Knicks got two first round picks in that trade, one from the Lakers and one from the Suns. Layden later traded both picks. One for Othella Harrington and one for Mark Jackson. Two awful moves. Just like Dallas dumped Eisley on us, the Raptors succesfully dumped Mark Jackson on us. Unbelievable to surrender a pick when we traded away the shorter contract (Childs) and got back the longer contract ( Jax). Another desperate move to try to remain competitive and make the playoffs at all costs.

Thursday July 27, 2000 08:40 AM

PARADISE ISLAND, Bahamas (AP) -- Patrick Ewing wants to play three more seasons, even if the New York Knicks don't want him back after his contract expires next June.


"I'd probably like to play two more years after next year. If it's New York, it's New York. If not, it's somewhere else," Ewing told The Associated Press on Wednesday, breaking a long silence over his plans for the future.


Ewing, in the Bahamas for the players' union's annual meeting, has one year remaining on the four-year, $60 million contract extension he signed three years ago.


He is eligible to sign an extension, but the Knicks have not said whether they will offer him one this summer.


Ewing has spent his entire 15-year career with the Knicks, reaching the NBA finals twice (once when he was injured) but never having won a championship. His 15.0 scoring average last season was the lowest of his career.


Knicks management has had a policy in recent years of never letting a coach enter the final year of his contract without giving him an extension, but not so with players.


General manager Scott Layden refuses to discuss anything relating to contracts, and Ewing's agent, David Falk, also begged off the subject Wednesday.


"I'm prepared to do whatever," Ewing said. "I'll let David Falk and the powers that be at the Knicks handle it, and I won't worry myself with it. The only thing I'm worried about is getting better and healthier for next season."


Ewing settled into a reduced offensive role with the Knicks last season before a foot injury knocked him out of Games 3 and 4 of the Eastern Conference finals against Indiana.


Ewing returned in Games 5 and 6, but New York lost both -- leading many to wonder whether the Knicks were better off with him or without him.


Ewing also went through a lonely season in the locker room, keeping distant from many of the younger players who have been added to the roster over the past few seasons.


At one point during the season, he hinted that he might like to finish his career in Miami, but it seems likely he'll give the Knicks every chance to make him an offer that will allow him to finish his career in New York in 2002-03.


Whether that offer will come this summer, he isn't sure.


"I enjoy it in New York. The team is good to me, the fans have been good to me," Ewing said. "We'll see."


Layden would not comment on Ewing's desire to play three more years -- or his interest in a two-year contract extension.


"He plays hard; he's important to our team. His skill level has always been very good. He always works on his game, and he's continued to keep the Knicks competitive," said Layden, who gave Ewing a stronger endorsement two days after the Knicks were knocked out of the playoffs.


Madison Square Garden president David Checketts was on vacation and could not be reached for comment.


Layden has been exploring a sign-and-trade deal with Portland for free-agent forward Brian Grant, the type of player who could move over to the center position if Ewing got hurt -- or after Ewing retires.


Layden, who spent part of July trying to convince free agent Grant Hill to come to the Knicks in a sign-and-trade deal, has been discussing trades with the Boston Celtics. Two league sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the AP that a swap of Chris Childs and Andrew Lang for Danny Fortson, Calbert Cheaney and Doug Overton was discussed earlier this month. That deal, however, appears dead.

I don't blame Layden for trading Ewing but more for what he got in return.
That said, to be fair to him, we were in year one of the new CBA (1999-2005) at the time. Trading expiring contracts for longer contracts wasn't a problem during the previous CBA. It took two years for teams to adjust. It wasn't until the summer 2001, when the possibility of the luxury tax being triggered for the first ever loomed, teams started to recognize the need to be fiscally responsible. Overpaid players were becoming hard to move. In the summer 2001 that's when teams started to try to unload long contracts. Dallas, who signed Howard Eisley the year before, unloaded that bum on us in the Rice/Bogues for Shandon Anderson/Howard Eisley trade.

[kosmovitelli]

But that's not even the half of it.

Trading a $20+ million expiring contract (Ewing) for a bunch of overpaid stiffs, uselss bottom of the barrel 1st and 2nd round picks and one over the hill Glen Rice (instead of a rumored Jermaine Oneal and big expiring contract) wasn't bad enough....

Nope.

Just when it looks like the Knicks may finally be able to get from under Rice's contract he goes and deals him for over $80 million worth of Shandon "Hands of Stone" Anderson and Howard "You're giving me how much Mr. Cuban?!?!?" Eisley.

And then to put the icing on the cake, he trades what could have been Amare Stoudemire AND Marcus Camby (AND Mark Jackson's expiring contract) for a cream-cheese kneed Antonio McDyess.

The sad thing is in a 3 or 4 years, you could have a similar thread on Thomas and name the players we could have had if he kept the picks he traded for Marbury and Curry.

Even sadder to realize Isiah Thomas is even more awful than Layden.
At least Layden has the excuse of trying to extend our playoff run. He inherited of a perennial playoff team and probably thought he was one player away from going back to the playoffs. He inherited of a playoff team and was pressured to make the playoffs at all costs. Especially after Checkets was fired and replaced by Dolan. Checketts wanted to rebuild and he was released.
Thomas inherited of a lotto team, there's no excuse trading unprotected first round picks when you're a losing lotto team. Especially when the GM is supposed to be a draft expert.
I have to check but I think Thomas is the only GM who traded unprotected first round picks (that could become lotto picks next june) this decade (one for Marbury and one for Curry).


The Knicks future is entrapped in the quicksands of Cablevision.
Be Layden or Thomas, the more they try to fix the mess, the uglier the situation becomes.

[kosmovitelli]

1. Strong rumors that the Blazers and Knicks were talking a deal involving Ewing for a big expiring AND a young player named Jermaine Oneal but that Layden decided to go with the deal he took because it was much more of a "sure thing".

Not a strong rumor. A bogus rumor. Layden didn't have an eye for talent. He wasn't looking at Jermaine O'Neal and obviously Layden didn't care about expiring contracts either. O'Neal was too raw for a championship caliber team like the Knicks. Layden was looking for a player who could help immediatly, a sure thing. And the Blazers never offered him to NY anyway. Why would they trade a young promising PF for a broken down and often injured C ? Ewing was on one leg and one injury away from retiring. Not to mention the Blazers had Arvydas Sabonis at C. Ewing moaned about PT in NY. There is no way he would have accepted a trade to the Blazers unless they told him he would start at C.
Also keep in mind, trade rumors about Ewing only started in august after Ewing tried to get an extension and was rebuffed. In august the Blazers were already talking to the Pacers about Dale Davis. The Davis for O'Neal trade was consumated late august 2000.

The only deal Blazers and Knicks talked about was for Brian Grant. Layden tried hard to get him but the Blazers said we had nothing of value for them. They didn't want Camby or any other player Layden was willing to part with.
At one point, before the lottery, Jermaine O'Neal was supposed to be traded to the Bulls for their lottery pick but the deal collapsed when the Bulls inherited of the #4 pick (instead of the #1 or #2).

2. Amare Stoudemire was available when the pick that the Knicks dealt to Denver as part of the Antonio McDyess deal was made.[/quote
]

No big deal. It happens all the time. 8 teams passed on Amare.
The problem wasn't Amare, it was trading away the pick and forfeiting the chance to draft a stud. If we kept the pick Layden may have drafted Jared Jeffries or another bum but it ain't the problem. I wouldn't have blamed Layden if he drafted Jared. The draft is a lottery, you have to have an eye for talent but also luck. I blame Layden for opting for the quick fix (trading the pick for a veteran) and forfeiting our chance to pick a stud in the draft. The Nuggets got two lotto picks and they drafted two bums : Nikoloz and Nene. No player to sweat for but at least they tried. It's a lesson. The draft is a lottery, if you want to win you have tpo stay in it !!!! Of course you can get a bum just like you can get a stud but you won't get the chance to pick one one if you trade the pick.

Sadly Thomas didn't learn the lesson and continued the trend of trading picks for veterans.

3. Marcus Camby, All-NBA Defensive POY, was included along with the lottery pick in the Antonio McDyess deal.

Camby was injured the previous season and the next after the trade. He wasn't a DPOY at the time. Layden was a terrible GM. No need to twist the truth to make him look even more stupid.
Camby was expandable at the time. Before he was traded he never played more than 63 games per season.

Many fans were fed up with Camby and his injury plagued seasons. Camby spent 4 seasons in NY and missed 99 games.

Instead of paying a guy like Gary Trent $1 million a season (what Trent ended up agreeing to) Layden decides to offer 28 times that amount to Mr 3 Chins on the Back of the Neck Clarence Weatherspoon.

Awful move indeed. Not to mention Spoon was another undersized PF.
Spoon and Jared Jeffries situation were similar. Their original teams wanted to keep them (at the right price) but we stupidly bid against ourselves and overpaid to get them. If my memory serves well, the Cavs offered Spoon a 3yr MLE contract. Layden offered 5 seasons and got Spoon.

[pwayknicks]

Hey good posts Kos...you sure remember a lot from back in the day...

I still cant say I fault Layden for doing the Dice deal....Dice was still young at the time, and although he was an injury risk, it was a risk that was worth it, it just didnt pan out...

Remember, we traded injury prone big man for injury prone big man, and traded down in the draft 14 spots.....if Dice was healthy(which everyone thought he was) we would have been a heck of a basketball team....I dont know if you remember the preseason, but Dice was as healthy as ever in the preaseason and playing out of his mind until he got injured....

Again if Dice stayed healthy, a Dice houston spree combo would have been dangerous and our key to get back to championship level basketball...it just didnt work out...

What Layden took a chance on in Dice was a proven superstar who had injury problems while giving away a draft pick, while Isiah gave up 2 unprotected lottery picks for a proven underacheiver(with hopes of becoming a superstar).....not to mention he had health concerns as well....