Sprewell vs PJ breakdown

[Galvationknicks]

Watch on YouTube

Podcasts are great

[Luv those Knicks]

Thanks for that. Was interesting to get a teammates take.

What I remember and this might not be right, but what I remember reading about the incident was that Spree choked PJ twice, once on the court and once maybe 20 minutes later inside. Does anyone else remember that, that it happened twice?

The media crucified Spree for that, and I can't say I condone it, but it's interesting to hear this version of the events.

I wonder if Thibs is like that in practice "mother f'er this and mother f'er that" and "give me more".

[MrDollarBills]

Watch on YouTube

Podcasts are great

That was really good. I gotta give those guys credit for not abandoning Spree.

Spree was wrong, but I don't feel any sympathy for PJ. There's consequences for being an ass hole to people.

[2010]

Long story short, PJ was poking the bear and got everything he was looking for.

[nykballa2k4]

Spree was great for us, but he was a trash person in that moment for assaulting his coach. No reason.

[Luv those Knicks]

That was really good. I gotta give those guys credit for not abandoning Spree.

Spree was wrong, but I don't feel any sympathy for PJ. There's consequences for being an ass hole to people.

I agree. Standing behind him during the press conference was cool. Still, if they really wanted to have his back and help him out, they would have pulled him off PJ, not let it happen.

You don't let friends drive drunk or commit assault.

[MrDollarBills]

That was really good. I gotta give those guys credit for not abandoning Spree.

Spree was wrong, but I don't feel any sympathy for PJ. There's consequences for being an ass hole to people.

I agree. Standing behind him during the press conference was cool. Still, if they really wanted to have his back and help him out, they would have pulled him off PJ, not let it happen.

You don't let friends drive drunk or commit assault.

I agree, but in reality the damage was done the moment Spree put his hands him so he was screwed either way.

[Capn'O]

I feel like the Knicks did their due diligence on Spree and decided they were good to just let him be him. Spree had a major independent streak but he never lacked in effort or focus. Iirc, Jeff Van Gundy had a really good rapport with him.

That incident where he drove across country and was late for training camp could have been an inflection point but the Knicks just fined him and moved on. Gotta set precedent on team policy but also not make a mountain out of a molehill.

[dc]

Thanks for that. Was interesting to get a teammates take.

What I remember and this might not be right, but what I remember reading about the incident was that Spree choked PJ twice, once on the court and once maybe 20 minutes later inside. Does anyone else remember that, that it happened twice?

The media crucified Spree for that, and I can't say I condone it, but it's interesting to hear this version of the events.

I wonder if Thibs is like that in practice "mother f'er this and mother f'er that" and "give me more".

Warrior fan here. Spree choked him once. Then after things "cooled down", he hit the showers. After he got out of the shower, he went after PJ again, though I'm not sure if he got to him.

My personal take: PJ was a horrible coach and horrible hire and most likely (as a head coach) a really annoying guy to be around. But the guy HAS to have some level of basketball knowledge, as Pop hired him in the early 2000s and he was basically the team's defensive coordinator. He's most likely the NBA equivalent of Josh McDaniels: knowledgeable about the game and can devise some good tactics on the court, but horribly unfit to be a HC and treats people like trash.

But something else to think about: as horrible as PJ was to play for, Sprewell was the only one who ever choked him. Remember, PJ had a prior 3 year stint in Portland with the likes of Rasheed, Clifford Robinson, Gary Trent, JR Rider and Jermaine O'neal on the team. I have no doubt in my mind those guys hated him as well, but none of them ever choked him. Also should note, that all those players mentioned lasted at least a full season under PJ. Sprewell only lasted from training camp through December before choking PJ.

A few other things about Spree to remember (and this happened before PJ ever coached the Warriors): in 1995, he had a beef with teammate Jerome Kersey and once brought a 2x4 with him to the locker room and threatened Kersey. He also owned a pitbull that bit off the ear of one of his daughters and he kind of shrugged off the incident.

Also, while he was suspended after the choking incident, he had a road rage incident where he ran an elderly couple off the road and caused injuries to both those people. He got 3 months house arrest.

Conclusion: I still don't understand how PJ got to serve as a HC 3 times (keep in mind he was KD's first coach in Seattle). Guy just wasn't fit to be a HC, and certainly not in the NBA. I think Chris Cohan hired PJ because he had an obsession with successful college coaches (he pursued Rick Pitino and later hired Mike Montgomery from Stanford). I think PJ sort of "had it coming" when he eventually tried his coaching "tactics" on the wrong person.

All that being said, I don't think Sprewell is portrayed "unfairly" by the media/public at all. Not one bit. Witness all the other incidents he's had off court to go along with his "I have a family to feed" comment and I think that paints a pretty good picture of who he is.

At the end of the day, it was 2 extremely flawed and egoistical people running into each other.

[2010]

Thanks for that. Was interesting to get a teammates take.

What I remember and this might not be right, but what I remember reading about the incident was that Spree choked PJ twice, once on the court and once maybe 20 minutes later inside. Does anyone else remember that, that it happened twice?

The media crucified Spree for that, and I can't say I condone it, but it's interesting to hear this version of the events.

I wonder if Thibs is like that in practice "mother f'er this and mother f'er that" and "give me more".

Warrior fan here. Spree choked him once. Then after things "cooled down", he hit the showers. After he got out of the shower, he went after PJ again, though I'm not sure if he got to him.

My personal take: PJ was a horrible coach and horrible hire and most likely (as a head coach) a really annoying guy to be around. But the guy HAS to have some level of basketball knowledge, as Pop hired him in the early 2000s and he was basically the team's defensive coordinator. He's most likely the NBA equivalent of Josh McDaniels: knowledgeable about the game and can devise some good tactics on the court, but horribly unfit to be a HC and treats people like trash.

But something else to think about: as horrible as PJ was to play for, Sprewell was the only one who ever choked him. Remember, PJ had a prior 3 year stint in Portland with the likes of Rasheed, Clifford Robinson, Gary Trent, JR Rider and Jermaine O'neal on the team. I have no doubt in my mind those guys hated him as well, but none of them ever choked him. Also should note, that all those players mentioned lasted at least a full season under PJ. Sprewell only lasted from training camp through December before choking PJ.

A few other things about Spree to remember (and this happened before PJ ever coached the Warriors): in 1995, he had a beef with teammate Jerome Kersey and once brought a 2x4 with him to the locker room and threatened Kersey. He also owned a pitbull that bit off the ear of one of his daughters and he kind of shrugged off the incident.

Also, while he was suspended after the choking incident, he had a road rage incident where he ran an elderly couple off the road and caused injuries to both those people. He got 3 months house arrest.

Conclusion: I still don't understand how PJ got to serve as a HC 3 times (keep in mind he was KD's first coach in Seattle). Guy just wasn't fit to be a HC, and certainly not in the NBA. I think Chris Cohan hired PJ because he had an obsession with successful college coaches (he pursued Rick Pitino and later hired Mike Montgomery from Stanford). I think PJ sort of "had it coming" when he eventually tried his coaching "tactics" on the wrong person.

All that being said, I don't think Sprewell is portrayed "unfairly" by the media/public at all. Not one bit. Witness all the other incidents he's had off court to go along with his "I have a family to feed" comment and I think that paints a pretty good picture of who he is.

At the end of the day, it was 2 extremely flawed and egoistical people running into each other.

Accurate post!

[Capn'O]

I had forgotten about the additional rap sheet on Spree but he definitely didn't have the benefit of the doubt. It's funny because he's so beloved in NY but he was definitely a loose canon. He just didn't do anything here beyond eccentric (maybe punched a guy on his yacht?) and helped us win. In a sense, things didn't really turn south for us until we traded him for Van Horn. One of the last bastions of our 90s success. When he talks he sounds so chill too but I guess he is until he isn't. Shaw seems to remember him fondly.

[dc]

A couple more points to throw in:

After the season in which he was suspended, Sprewell sued the NBA for $30M after he was suspended for 68 games that season without pay. He cited racial discrimination as part of the suit. It got promptly dismissed by the judge. The NBA lawyer had this to say

"We have had enough of Mr. Sprewell," Rothman told the judge. "I think he came away from this arbitration very, very fortunate because of the compassion of the arbitrator, more compassion than I would have given him."

Rothman said he thought Sprewell should have been suspended for life.

"He choked his head coach, he threatened to kill him, left bruises and scars," and returned after 20 minutes for a second attack, Rothman said.

As for PJ, he got hired by Pop as an assistant in 2002 and stayed there 5 years when the team won 3 championships. He seemed to "rehab" his image somewhat and parlayed that into Presti hiring him as HC for OKC's inaugural season. When that didn't work out (let's face it, it was a tanking roster at the time), he still found work as an assistant in Toronto and Brooklyn. In fact, people forget that he was interim coach for the remainder of the season after Avery Johnson got fired in Brooklyn and actually got them to the 4th seed in the playoffs.

All that work post choke is in addition to the work he did as an analyst for TNT an ESPN. So for as big a jerk as he was as a HC, he got hired for an awful lot of jobs after the choke incident. He's a well spoken guy who likely interviews well. Probably a decent guy to talk to in those kind of settings.

My guess about PJ is he's just one of those guys who instantly transforms into a complete narcissistic egomaniac once he gets handed the head coaching baton.

[WaltFrazier]

Watch on YouTube

Podcasts are great

On YouTube you see the rest of the pod in parts. Shaw is a really good storyteller, and played with and against some greats. Good stories about Bird and Penny Hardaway

[Capn'O]

A couple more points to throw in:

After the season in which he was suspended, Sprewell sued the NBA for $30M after he was suspended for 68 games that season without pay. He cited racial discrimination as part of the suit. It got promptly dismissed by the judge. The NBA lawyer had this to say

"We have had enough of Mr. Sprewell," Rothman told the judge. "I think he came away from this arbitration very, very fortunate because of the compassion of the arbitrator, more compassion than I would have given him."

Rothman said he thought Sprewell should have been suspended for life.

"He choked his head coach, he threatened to kill him, left bruises and scars," and returned after 20 minutes for a second attack, Rothman said.

As for PJ, he got hired by Pop as an assistant in 2002 and stayed there 5 years when the team won 3 championships. He seemed to "rehab" his image somewhat and parlayed that into Presti hiring him as HC for OKC's inaugural season. When that didn't work out (let's face it, it was a tanking roster at the time), he still found work as an assistant in Toronto and Brooklyn. In fact, people forget that he was interim coach for the remainder of the season after Avery Johnson got fired in Brooklyn and actually got them to the 4th seed in the playoffs.

All that work post choke is in addition to the work he did as an analyst for TNT an ESPN. So for as big a jerk as he was as a HC, he got hired for an awful lot of jobs after the choke incident. He's a well spoken guy who likely interviews well. Probably a decent guy to talk to in those kind of settings.

My guess about PJ is he's just one of those guys who instantly transforms into a complete narcissistic egomaniac once he gets handed the head coaching baton.

From the way Shaw tells it, it sounds like he has a yelling persona when he's coaching that didn't extend to the rest of his life. I bet he learned a lot from Pop about how to manage grown men.

[prophet_of_rage]

Thanks for that. Was interesting to get a teammates take.

What I remember and this might not be right, but what I remember reading about the incident was that Spree choked PJ twice, once on the court and once maybe 20 minutes later inside. Does anyone else remember that, that it happened twice?

The media crucified Spree for that, and I can't say I condone it, but it's interesting to hear this version of the events.

I wonder if Thibs is like that in practice "mother f'er this and mother f'er that" and "give me more".

He choked Carlessimo once and returned 20.munutes later to fight him.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[moocow007]

I remember, way back then there were players on the team that basically said that PJ was basically asking for it. Not surprising. PJ was known as a control freak and a screamer when he was coaching Seton Hall. That style definitely can work in college but in the NBA? Not as much. Also his style of play I don't think fit the skills of the players he had in GS (nor did the players fit each other as their were lots of talent but very little winning with guys chucking away like it was going out of style) which likely didn't help any more than h is screaming schtick did with pro athletes. It was basically a powder keg waiting for something to set it off.

[Galvationknicks]

Maybe Sheed will talk up PJ on his podcast. Love Sheeds pod.

Also Brian Shaw is good story teller

[2010]

I had forgotten about the additional rap sheet on Spree but he definitely didn't have the benefit of the doubt. It's funny because he's so beloved in NY but he was definitely a loose canon. He just didn't do anything here beyond eccentric (maybe punched a guy on his yacht?) and helped us win. In a sense, things didn't really turn south for us until we traded him for Van Horn. One of the last bastions of our 90s success. When he talks he sounds so chill too but I guess he is until he isn't. Shaw seems to remember him fondly.

I ran into him once in the club at BB Kings before it closed down when it used to be poppin. Definitely chill. He wasn’t even in VIP. He was in the mix (in population) but def didn’t take no shorts.

This was in the era when NYC’s most prominent street cats was on the loose — and there was no social media to record shenanigans. And Spree was up in there dolo (no teammates, no entourage) with no security. With a nice chain on. Just him. That’ll tell you something.

[2010]

Not to derail, but since we’re on the topic of the truth coming out about past NBA turmoil, here’s the real reason Paul got Pierced in a Boston club…

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[nedleeds]

asking for it.

Were the people he ran off the road in '98 after raging asking for it?
How about the 4 pit bulls running around his yard, one of whom got put down after biting his daughters ear off?

He's proven to be a deadbeat irresponsible piece of **** who would likely have been thrown in jail for 6 months instead of house arrest if not for GSWs lawyers and having (at the time) money.

He's proven to be a totally irresponsible idiot who squandered the money he made

"In Milwaukee he bought a home for $1,150,000 in 2006, then lost to the bank in foreclosure, and most recently sold in 2011 for $450,000. Sprewell also lost his boat to foreclosure, and owes over $650,000 on that vessel, where at least, if he made noise, nobody but yacht clubbers would be inconvenienced."

Now he's Dolan's lap dog who comes out to get a few claps based on the 1999 Finals run, without which he'd be washing Antoine Walkers car.