PG: KNICKS vs Cavs - Get Well, Jalen!

[JayTWill]

Not all the time. It took guys getting hurt for others to get more time.

Just look at Deuces minutes. He goes from 5-10min to playing the entire game.

Thibs is still a very good coach. But yea, he has some quirks with the way he's runs his rotation and gives it minutes

that's generally how rotations change though. that's when the opportunities present themselves. grimes is the only demotion i can think of, and it didn't happen overnight.

deuce has kind of been in an obi-like situation until the grimes trade. there aren't that many backup PG minutes to spare. thankfully he's rightly winning the side-by-side with MJ.

True, but Thibs takes it to an extreme. Just using Deuce as an example again because it's fairly obvious. There's been games he has gotten 5 minutes while we run 7 man rotations with the starters getting 40+ minutes.

It's just not sustainable. In the regular season sometimes you just need young active bodies to eat minutes even if they make mistakes. Thibs is usually pretty reluctant to do that and prefers vets or to play his guys 40+ minutes

Again, still a very good coach. Just one of his flaws

Yeah, I remember Grimes saying something like he felt if he missed a few shots he would be pulled from the game. I thought he was overreacting a bit but seeing how Thibs has handled minutes over the last couple months or so clearly shows his lack of trust in certain players, how his hand has to be forced sometimes to play them and some of the complete randomness of his decision making.

The 2 Memphis games stand out in my mind partly because of how huge of a talent advantage we had against their decimated rotations. In the first game OG played against the T'wolves Brunson played 41 minutes and McBride played 7. Brunson had a terrible shooting game but it was pretty clear that the team was much better with him on the court rather than Deuce. The minutes distribution was clearly warranted.

Fast forward to the first Memphis matchup. Brunson was injured and McBride started the game. The starters came out with no energy. Randle looked like trash. Sloppy turnovers. No defense. Does Thibs sit him for his poor play? No. Flynn eventually comes in for McBride for his first real rotational minutes followed by Precious. It wasn't pretty but Flynn was becoming more comfortable as the minutes went by and Precious brought good energy and the bench maintained the small lead. The starters came back and lost the lead and were down by 4 at half. The bench was more effective in their minutes than the starters were.

In the third quarter the starters and specifically Julius came out with more energy. Julius dominated the inexperienced Memphis rotation and there was a 15 point swing with an 11 point lead going into the 4th. At this point you would think with an 11 point cushion against a G-League level of talent and how the bench performed in the first half Thibs would bring in Flynn and Precious. No. In his mind playing them a single minute could lead to a loss. While already shorthanded at the 1 and 5 he proceeds to play McBride and iHart with achilles soreness that he has been managing for a year for the entire second half. Why?

In the second Memphis matchup Randle and OG were out but the Knicks handled another G-League level of talent pretty easily for 3 quarters and were up by 23 going into the 4th. Brunson started the quarter on the bench with many of us hoping he would not have to play the rest of the game and be able to rest. The bench extended the lead to 26 before the Grizzlies went on a small 6-0 run. A -3 point swing in 4 minutes. Not a huge deal. Thibs immediately called a timeout to get Brunson and iHart back in for Flynn and Taj.

They forced the ball to Brunson leading to 2 straight bad possessions. A forced drive by Precious with no time on the shot clock leading to a blocked shot and 3 from Memphis. Then a forced pass by Brunson in traffic leading to a turnover and another Memphis 3. Another 6-0 run. Was a timeout called? No. Was Brunson pulled? No. The lead then went from 20 to 10 in the 2 minutes Brunson came back until he left the game to injury. The Knicks then maintained the lead of ten for the final 6 minutes of the game without Brunson.
Brunson finished the game -3 while Flynn finished the game +15 but Thibs always likes to mention plus/minus for some reason.

That's part of my issue with Thib's minutes distribution. He makes random decisions based on who he trusts and who he feels comfortable with at the moment. Obviously some players have earned and deserve more trust but sometimes time, score, situation and the way someone is playing should dictate who the minutes should go to but he makes decisions almost from a state of paranoia especially in tougher situations. When things get difficult for even a moment his natural reaction is to just play the guys he trusts more no matter if they are injured, fatigued or just playing awful.

[Capn'O]

I agree with much of this EXCEPT:

I'll use the Randle injury to highlight something. How his injury occurred was not a wear and tear issue BUT Randle being in the game when he got hurt is a questionable call and it generally points to the main issue I have with Thibs. He doesn't build up contingency lineups early in the season that can weather runs so his main guys are always in the game late, even if they're up big. I'll point to the Thunder as a counter-example. If they're up 20 going into the 4th, their main guys don't play unless it gets close and as a result their backups have learned to preserve leads. Look at some of their boxes. SGA has a ton of games where he doesn't touch the floor in the 4th in blowouts - either way. IMO, this is the way. You burn guys out less and build up your reserves so they're ready for contingency situations where a player unexpectedly becomes unavailable.

The injuries have shown us what many of us have expected all along. We don't NEED the starters to hold leads. For example, you can trust Deuce as a reliable backup to Brunson. We just played him for basically the entire game vs a strong opponent and he held the line and he has likewise done so more than a few times recently. Why not build that up earlier so you don't have Brunson battling in late game situations and wearing him out?


I consider Thibs an excellent coach. But he's an honest to God maniac.

TMac scoring 13 pts in 33 seconds scarred Thibs. He talks about it all the time.

It's ironic that it left such an impression on him, since that is a game he won.

last year luka and the mavs did 10 points in like 30 seconds. it's hard to trust. lol.

And, ironically, we almost certainly win that game if we had Josh Hart, a reserve, at that point in the season to secure long rebounds and keep the ball out of Luka's hands.

That said, that game was tight throughout and that's where you need your closers closing.

[stuporman]

That’s what you’re hearing because that’s what you want to hear. That’s not what I’m saying.

If I said “you’re an idiot” that’s not the same sentence as “I can’t tell if you’re an idiot or just trolling”

Poster says Thibs wears out his players and every injury is ultimately because Thibs blah blah blah...

Me: So what you're saying is Thibs wears out his players and all the injuries are ultimately because Thibs

Poster: WTF I never said that! you're CRAZY.Learn to READ!!

also, "here's a completely subjective truth i have defined. let me then tell you that this truth i have defined is not definable, but i have indeed defined it and you're either too dumb or stubborn to see."

decent gaslight work.

I see what you did there....or did I? hmmmmm

[robillionaire]

Both Brunson and Hart played basketball all summer, that would seem the more logical thing to point to if we wanted to talk about wear and tear.

People are biased against Thibs and have been for years for other reasons besides this(bc of the players that aren’t here anymore). Hart is playing a lot extra because OG had some freak elbow thing which also was not Thibs fault

Mitch has always been injury prone and there’s nothing to suspect the injuries to Randle or Brunson are related to the coach

The only one that I would even kinda entertain blaming him for is Hartenstein, who played massive minutes and then had the Achilles injury and is still playing with that injury, I could see that one being on Thibs, but even then, he was put into that situation of massive minutes increase because Mitch got injured. Same with Hart playing so many minutes, Precious playing crazy minutes because Randle is gone, McBride playing 47 because Brunson was out, it’s like a domino effect where legitimate freak injuries are making people play more than they would under usual circumstances. But what are we supposed to do, punt the season? Our 3rd string backups aren’t even real nba players. There was someone yesterday upset because Charlie Brown wasn’t playing like come on dude we are trying to win games here

I agree with much of this EXCEPT:

I'll use the Randle injury to highlight something. How his injury occurred was not a wear and tear issue BUT Randle being in the game when he got hurt is a questionable call and it generally points to the main issue I have with Thibs. He doesn't build up contingency lineups early in the season that can weather runs so his main guys are always in the game late, even if they're up big. I'll point to the Thunder as a counter-example. If they're up 20 going into the 4th, their main guys don't play unless it gets close and as a result their backups have learned to preserve leads. Look at some of their boxes. SGA has a ton of games where he doesn't touch the floor in the 4th in blowouts - either way. IMO, this is the way. You burn guys out less and build up your reserves so they're ready for contingency situations where a player unexpectedly becomes unavailable.

The injuries have shown us what many of us have expected all along. We don't NEED the starters to hold leads. For example, you can trust Deuce as a reliable backup to Brunson. We just played him for basically the entire game vs a strong opponent and he held the line and he has likewise done so more than a few times recently. Why not build that up earlier so you don't have Brunson battling in late game situations and wearing him out?


I consider Thibs an excellent coach. But he's an honest to God maniac.

Re: the Randle injury. I was watching this game, and my opinion is the Heat were still fighting hard and it wasn’t in hand by any means. Just my opinion on it based on the moment. Everyone knows I like Randle so it would be very easy for me to blame the coach for him getting badly injured 2 years in a row but I can’t honestly do that

Now, there have been other games where I do agree he could have pulled starters earlier. That just wasn’t one of them

[robillionaire]

First, the concept of “fault” or blame is only useful insofar as public sentiment can sway a man’s job security. Cause and effect are never completely cut and dried, but you can be damn sure Tom Thibodeau teams will suffer more injuries over time than most other coaches because the basic laws of probability dictate that players playing more minutes at higher intensities in a physical maximum rim-attack/rim-protect system will have a greater chance of hurting themselves on all types of plays, including the ones you just mentioned.

That make sense? It’s not complicated and frankly it’s not controversial. Everybody knows this about Thibs. The upshot is that he gets incredible production out of guys while they’re healthy. Look at Donte and Hart tonight and tell me we’re not on borrowed time until one of them drops next. The bright side is until they drop, they’re playing out of their damn minds.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Thibs is an excellent coach and the right man for the job at MSG. It’s just plain as day that he’s gonna injure his players.

You masterfully avoided answering the question, said something about rim-attack/rim-protect which also does not answer the question and a bunch of other made up unrelated things.

I’ll rephrase exactly the same thought in short bullet points so maybe you’ll understand:

• Literally nothing is Thibs’ “fault,” including the injuries, until the minute they fire him for it.

Thibs increases the odds of player injury by:
• Increased minutes;
• Increased intensity;
• Increased physical contact at the rim.

Period. I said nothing different. I dodged no questions. It’s still plain as day, and the entire basketball universe understands and accepts it as the cost of doing business with Tom T.

I feel like if I was to play devil’s advocate here and just grant you your 3 main points, I would still want to roll with Thibs. I would rather watch a team play with increased intensity and physicality than watch a low intensity low physicality load management job. That’s just me. If the injuries happen then they happen. You say cost of doing business and me personally I’m good with that cost. I like watching this team. Hell, even when half the team is injured like it is now I like watching this team compete and win like they did last night.

[nykballa2k4]

the cavs had a 2 point lead at halftime. brunosn got hurt 1 minute into the game. the f*ck is mobley talking about.

One of the odder comments.

It's that "not give an inch" mentality. Don't give the other guys credit. Don't talk up the enemy. etc. I mean it was about his response to seeing Brunson go down. The real thought was probably "oh this game just got real easy" but he can't say that after a loss. so what he said to me translates to "an injury and a pause like that throws everyone off a bit"

The correct response would have been "tough to see a great player like that go down, we know we are without one of our best with Spida, gotta give them credit for keeping the fight" and then keeping it moving.

of course, the refs really gave us a bit of an assist for whatever reason, but i don't think Mobley is going to go out there and say how his team got screwed to hard by the refs that he expected a free meal.

[nykballa2k4]

You masterfully avoided answering the question, said something about rim-attack/rim-protect which also does not answer the question and a bunch of other made up unrelated things.

I’ll rephrase exactly the same thought in short bullet points so maybe you’ll understand:

• Literally nothing is Thibs’ “fault,” including the injuries, until the minute they fire him for it.

Thibs increases the odds of player injury by:
• Increased minutes;
• Increased intensity;
• Increased physical contact at the rim.

Period. I said nothing different. I dodged no questions. It’s still plain as day, and the entire basketball universe understands and accepts it as the cost of doing business with Tom T.

I feel like if I was to play devil’s advocate here and just grant you your 3 main points, I would still want to roll with Thibs. I would rather watch a team play with increased intensity and physicality than watch a low intensity low physicality load management job. That’s just me. If the injuries happen then they happen. You say cost of doing business and me personally I’m good with that cost. I like watching this team. Hell, even when half the team is injured like it is now I like watching this team compete and win like they did last night.

I don't hear anyone saying to fire Thibs. He is doing a great job making chicken salad out of chicken #$%^ but there are consequences to his actions. We want to have a team that is ready to peak by playoff time. We don't want to have a team that's just trying to weather a storm again for the 3rd straight playoffs.

There is a balance and I think most of us would like to see that.
The Warriors lost to the Celtics pretty bad yesterday, Kerr was talking before the fact about how tired the team was. He gave in the game at half time for the good of his players.

[KnicksGod]

Still didn't see the bumping of the knees on any angle but whatever. This is just a good way for Brunson to get some rest. Bring him back when OG and Randle are ready to go.

because they aren't showing the full play


here

Read on Twitter

?s=20

its the bump w iharts knee

The sport doc already help us ease our mind to get into this game. He said nerve from banging knee made his leg give out.

Brunson saying he’s much better is a good sign

Not a doctor but seems like banging knees not necessary. The bruise can happen from compression (jumping, brace) and that injury can traumatize the nerve. It could be a momentary thing, why his foot dropped and presumably came back, and/or the bruising and swelling can put pressure on the nerve. Until the bruise heals, he's not safe to come back I guess.

But if he was walking, that's probably a sign that the nerve isn't badly damaged.

All of this is me piecing together stuff as you guys are - but on that note, I don't think there was any banging into someone else that caused this. It was on the jump or landing and I think either it was weak leg, bad luck or the damn compression crap. I think they wrap injuries and even non-injured parts too tightly.

What I've always heard is that wrapping things doesn't provide that much support anyway - it's more in the player's mind, and you could be causing something to be crushed in there the wrong way. I'm personally suspicious of that and since this isn't Covid and vaccines, I feel fine speculating.

[Capn'O]

Re: the Randle injury. I was watching this game, and my opinion is the Heat were still fighting hard and it wasn’t in hand by any means. Just my opinion on it based on the moment. Everyone knows I like Randle so it would be very easy for me to blame the coach for him getting badly injured 2 years in a row but I can’t honestly do that

Now, there have been other games where I do agree he could have pulled starters earlier. That just wasn’t one of them

That's fair. There's a reasonable argument that he should have been in. But given Thibs' approach he HAD to be in.

[robillionaire]

I’ll rephrase exactly the same thought in short bullet points so maybe you’ll understand:

• Literally nothing is Thibs’ “fault,” including the injuries, until the minute they fire him for it.

Thibs increases the odds of player injury by:
• Increased minutes;
• Increased intensity;
• Increased physical contact at the rim.

Period. I said nothing different. I dodged no questions. It’s still plain as day, and the entire basketball universe understands and accepts it as the cost of doing business with Tom T.

I feel like if I was to play devil’s advocate here and just grant you your 3 main points, I would still want to roll with Thibs. I would rather watch a team play with increased intensity and physicality than watch a low intensity low physicality load management job. That’s just me. If the injuries happen then they happen. You say cost of doing business and me personally I’m good with that cost. I like watching this team. Hell, even when half the team is injured like it is now I like watching this team compete and win like they did last night.

I don't hear anyone saying to fire Thibs.

The warriors were down by 44 pts at halftime barely clinging to a play in spot on a team where to top players are grizzled vets. I wouldn’t care if Thibs did the same in that scenario but it’s an apples oranges comparison here

[Im Coming Home]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

[robillionaire]

Re: the Randle injury. I was watching this game, and my opinion is the Heat were still fighting hard and it wasn’t in hand by any means. Just my opinion on it based on the moment. Everyone knows I like Randle so it would be very easy for me to blame the coach for him getting badly injured 2 years in a row but I can’t honestly do that

Now, there have been other games where I do agree he could have pulled starters earlier. That just wasn’t one of them

That's fair. There's a reasonable argument that he should have been in. But given Thibs' approach he HAD to be in.

I’d also add that to me it seemed like a playoff atmosphere kind of statement game against the team that bounced us from the playoffs last year that warranted finishing the fight leaving nothing to chance more than just any other regular season affair. I know in theory it’s just another one of 82 games and this is going to be a criticism of Thibs. But some of them just have a different feel. Randle was pushing for an all star appearance and surely wouldn’t have been happy being benched the entire 4th quarter in a competitive game either. Especially when Miami still had their starters in and had not given up.

But I think this debate goes in your direction a little easier if he just randomly popped something and we could point to the wear and tear of him playing so many minutes for years. And we could point to the fatigue. But that’s not what happened, so it’s easier for me to say hey this could have happened on any of his millions of drives to the basket regardless of the moment and write it off as a freak accident the coach couldn’t have prevented

Also as far as he HAD to be in, there were a lot of games this year that he did have to be in not solely because of Thibs but because the team legitimately came into the season without a backup PF on the roster. And he came into the season injured, playing through injury, as the only PF on the roster. And Precious was here but he was not yet acclimated to the system. So I think with Randle specifically there was a roster issue. You mention he should have been building up a contingency plan earlier but that wasn’t even possible in Randle’s case

Anyway it’s a good conversation

[stuporman]

There's nothing like sipping hot coffee leaning back in my chair reading another team's fan base melt down after an unexpected and demoralizing loss to the Knicks...thank you sham for that link, I don't listen to the other people that say such mean things about you.

[robillionaire]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

[Buttah304]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

When it comes to the GB you need to first gargle Jokic nuts and then proceed with whatever topic you wanted to discuss.

[GONYK]

I agree with much of this EXCEPT:

I'll use the Randle injury to highlight something. How his injury occurred was not a wear and tear issue BUT Randle being in the game when he got hurt is a questionable call and it generally points to the main issue I have with Thibs. He doesn't build up contingency lineups early in the season that can weather runs so his main guys are always in the game late, even if they're up big. I'll point to the Thunder as a counter-example. If they're up 20 going into the 4th, their main guys don't play unless it gets close and as a result their backups have learned to preserve leads. Look at some of their boxes. SGA has a ton of games where he doesn't touch the floor in the 4th in blowouts - either way. IMO, this is the way. You burn guys out less and build up your reserves so they're ready for contingency situations where a player unexpectedly becomes unavailable.

The injuries have shown us what many of us have expected all along. We don't NEED the starters to hold leads. For example, you can trust Deuce as a reliable backup to Brunson. We just played him for basically the entire game vs a strong opponent and he held the line and he has likewise done so more than a few times recently. Why not build that up earlier so you don't have Brunson battling in late game situations and wearing him out?


I consider Thibs an excellent coach. But he's an honest to God maniac.

TMac scoring 13 pts in 33 seconds scarred Thibs. He talks about it all the time.

It's ironic that it left such an impression on him, since that is a game he won.

last year luka and the mavs did 10 points in like 30 seconds. it's hard to trust. lol.

That's definitely what comes to mind for me.

I think Thibs' philosophy is pretty simple - As long as the opposition has a starter in, he wants his starter matched up with them. He thinks of things in terms of matchup advantages. If you aren't going to relinquish yours, he's not going to lay down his.

[thebuzzardman]

that's generally how rotations change though. that's when the opportunities present themselves. grimes is the only demotion i can think of, and it didn't happen overnight.

deuce has kind of been in an obi-like situation until the grimes trade. there aren't that many backup PG minutes to spare. thankfully he's rightly winning the side-by-side with MJ.

True, but Thibs takes it to an extreme. Just using Deuce as an example again because it's fairly obvious. There's been games he has gotten 5 minutes while we run 7 man rotations with the starters getting 40+ minutes.

It's just not sustainable. In the regular season sometimes you just need young active bodies to eat minutes even if they make mistakes. Thibs is usually pretty reluctant to do that and prefers vets or to play his guys 40+ minutes

Again, still a very good coach. Just one of his flaws

Yeah, I remember Grimes saying something like he felt if he missed a few shots he would be pulled from the game. I thought he was overreacting a bit but seeing how Thibs has handled minutes over the last couple months or so clearly shows his lack of trust in certain players, how his hand has to be forced sometimes to play them and some of the complete randomness of his decision making.

The 2 Memphis games stand out in my mind partly because of how huge of a talent advantage we had against their decimated rotations. In the first game OG played against the T'wolves Brunson played 41 minutes and McBride played 7. Brunson had a terrible shooting game but it was pretty clear that the team was much better with him on the court rather than Deuce. The minutes distribution was clearly warranted.

Fast forward to the first Memphis matchup. Brunson was injured and McBride started the game. The starters came out with no energy. Randle looked like trash. Sloppy turnovers. No defense. Does Thibs sit him for his poor play? No. Flynn eventually comes in for McBride for his first real rotational minutes followed by Precious. It wasn't pretty but Flynn was becoming more comfortable as the minutes went by and Precious brought good energy and the bench maintained the small lead. The starters came back and lost the lead and were down by 4 at half. The bench was more effective in their minutes than the starters were.

In the third quarter the starters and specifically Julius came out with more energy. Julius dominated the inexperienced Memphis rotation and there was a 15 point swing with an 11 point lead going into the 4th. At this point you would think with an 11 point cushion against a G-League level of talent and how the bench performed in the first half Thibs would bring in Flynn and Precious. No. In his mind playing them a single minute could lead to a loss. While already shorthanded at the 1 and 5 he proceeds to play McBride and iHart with achilles soreness that he has been managing for a year for the entire second half. Why?

In the second Memphis matchup Randle and OG were out but the Knicks handled another G-League level of talent pretty easily for 3 quarters and were up by 23 going into the 4th. Brunson started the quarter on the bench with many of us hoping he would not have to play the rest of the game and be able to rest. The bench extended the lead to 26 before the Grizzlies went on a small 6-0 run. A -3 point swing in 4 minutes. Not a huge deal. Thibs immediately called a timeout to get Brunson and iHart back in for Flynn and Taj.

They forced the ball to Brunson leading to 2 straight bad possessions. A forced drive by Precious with no time on the shot clock leading to a blocked shot and 3 from Memphis. Then a forced pass by Brunson in traffic leading to a turnover and another Memphis 3. Another 6-0 run. Was a timeout called? No. Was Brunson pulled? No. The lead then went from 20 to 10 in the 2 minutes Brunson came back until he left the game to injury. The Knicks then maintained the lead of ten for the final 6 minutes of the game without Brunson.
Brunson finished the game -3 while Flynn finished the game +15 but Thibs always likes to mention plus/minus for some reason.

That's part of my issue with Thib's minutes distribution. He makes random decisions based on who he trusts and who he feels comfortable with at the moment. Obviously some players have earned and deserve more trust but sometimes time, score, situation and the way someone is playing should dictate who the minutes should go to but he makes decisions almost from a state of paranoia especially in tougher situations. When things get difficult for even a moment his natural reaction is to just play the guys he trusts more no matter if they are injured, fatigued or just playing awful.

Damn. Look at all this. I can't remember what I had for lunch 3 days ago.

[robillionaire]

True, but Thibs takes it to an extreme. Just using Deuce as an example again because it's fairly obvious. There's been games he has gotten 5 minutes while we run 7 man rotations with the starters getting 40+ minutes.

It's just not sustainable. In the regular season sometimes you just need young active bodies to eat minutes even if they make mistakes. Thibs is usually pretty reluctant to do that and prefers vets or to play his guys 40+ minutes

Again, still a very good coach. Just one of his flaws

Yeah, I remember Grimes saying something like he felt if he missed a few shots he would be pulled from the game. I thought he was overreacting a bit but seeing how Thibs has handled minutes over the last couple months or so clearly shows his lack of trust in certain players, how his hand has to be forced sometimes to play them and some of the complete randomness of his decision making.

The 2 Memphis games stand out in my mind partly because of how huge of a talent advantage we had against their decimated rotations. In the first game OG played against the T'wolves Brunson played 41 minutes and McBride played 7. Brunson had a terrible shooting game but it was pretty clear that the team was much better with him on the court rather than Deuce. The minutes distribution was clearly warranted.

Fast forward to the first Memphis matchup. Brunson was injured and McBride started the game. The starters came out with no energy. Randle looked like trash. Sloppy turnovers. No defense. Does Thibs sit him for his poor play? No. Flynn eventually comes in for McBride for his first real rotational minutes followed by Precious. It wasn't pretty but Flynn was becoming more comfortable as the minutes went by and Precious brought good energy and the bench maintained the small lead. The starters came back and lost the lead and were down by 4 at half. The bench was more effective in their minutes than the starters were.

In the third quarter the starters and specifically Julius came out with more energy. Julius dominated the inexperienced Memphis rotation and there was a 15 point swing with an 11 point lead going into the 4th. At this point you would think with an 11 point cushion against a G-League level of talent and how the bench performed in the first half Thibs would bring in Flynn and Precious. No. In his mind playing them a single minute could lead to a loss. While already shorthanded at the 1 and 5 he proceeds to play McBride and iHart with achilles soreness that he has been managing for a year for the entire second half. Why?

In the second Memphis matchup Randle and OG were out but the Knicks handled another G-League level of talent pretty easily for 3 quarters and were up by 23 going into the 4th. Brunson started the quarter on the bench with many of us hoping he would not have to play the rest of the game and be able to rest. The bench extended the lead to 26 before the Grizzlies went on a small 6-0 run. A -3 point swing in 4 minutes. Not a huge deal. Thibs immediately called a timeout to get Brunson and iHart back in for Flynn and Taj.

They forced the ball to Brunson leading to 2 straight bad possessions. A forced drive by Precious with no time on the shot clock leading to a blocked shot and 3 from Memphis. Then a forced pass by Brunson in traffic leading to a turnover and another Memphis 3. Another 6-0 run. Was a timeout called? No. Was Brunson pulled? No. The lead then went from 20 to 10 in the 2 minutes Brunson came back until he left the game to injury. The Knicks then maintained the lead of ten for the final 6 minutes of the game without Brunson.
Brunson finished the game -3 while Flynn finished the game +15 but Thibs always likes to mention plus/minus for some reason.

That's part of my issue with Thib's minutes distribution. He makes random decisions based on who he trusts and who he feels comfortable with at the moment. Obviously some players have earned and deserve more trust but sometimes time, score, situation and the way someone is playing should dictate who the minutes should go to but he makes decisions almost from a state of paranoia especially in tougher situations. When things get difficult for even a moment his natural reaction is to just play the guys he trusts more no matter if they are injured, fatigued or just playing awful.

Damn. Look at all this. I can't remember what I had for lunch 3 days ago.

You probably dined on our hopes and dreams most likely

[cgmw]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

[KnicksGadfly]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

It's alright man. Did I ever tell you about the time when I got warned for +1 Nets fans posts when they lost to the Knicks