PG: KNICKS vs Cavs - Get Well, Jalen!

[Im Coming Home]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

It's alright man. Did I ever tell you about the time when I got warned for +1 Nets fans posts when they lost to the Knicks

Damn man, thats pathetic.

Its alright I know, but having a warning level of 2 because of this is BS. I think one more level and I get a temp suspension or something, idk its been awhile since I had any warning level, maybe a mod can explain..

[BKlutch]

until the mri results come back which i expect he's getting today, we don't really know anything

YOU don't nkow anything, but then, you didn't become an orthopedic surgeon. Doctors actually make many diagnoses without an MRI,using the description of the injury and also what they can see physically (for example, an ACL and Achilles were ruled out ASAP by at least 2 Orthopods within minutes). If Jalen weren't an NBA player, he likely wouldn't get an MRI (it wouldn't be deemed necessary by insurance).

But given his position as a star, of course, nobody disagrees with his getting the test. We're just all so battle scarred here in NY that it's hard to believe it when we dodge a bullet. I understand that fully.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

It's alright man. Did I ever tell you about the time when I got warned for +1 Nets fans posts when they lost to the Knicks

Damn man, thats pathetic.

Its alright I know, but having a warning level of 2 because of this is BS. I think one more level and I get a temp suspension or something, idk its been awhile since I had any warning level, maybe a mod can explain..

Tell them to fuq off and eat bags of dicks!! They usually remove the warnings after that!

[BKlutch]

Read on Twitter

bro. they don't wanna hear this. they're averaging 40-44mpg in their minds, which is good enough to rave about.

I'm averaging 48 minutes a game and it's taking a toll on me lately. No easy wins!

[aggo]

Notice something?


Crunch time


We went with a Randle set. Bojan ran it

Read on Twitter

[robillionaire]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

There doesn’t seem to be anything cumulative about a knee contusion caused by a trauma though. You can do whatever lounging and maintenance you want your entire life but if I hit your knee with a baseball bat you might not feel good

[aromeoj]

I see a lot of people talking about Thibs running players into the ground, especially with Jalen Brunson playing around 35 minutes per game this year. But, let's not jump the gun here. Think about Kobe – the man averaged 36 minutes throughout his career, and he's not the only one. Loads of players have logged heavy minutes and done just fine.

And about the whole minutes = injuries thing, it's not that straightforward. Injuries can come from anywhere – bad luck, how someone lands, you name it. Plus, the NBA's no stranger to players who can handle the grind. Look at LeBron; the guy's been on the court a ton averaging about 38 minutes per game in his prime and still played at an elite level.

Now - load management. Sure, it's become a big deal, with top players sitting out games to avoid getting hurt. But has it really stopped injuries? Not quite. Some of the biggest names (Kawhi) have still ended up on the sidelines despite taking games off. It's like there's no perfect answer to preventing injuries, whether you play a ton of minutes or try to save yourself for the playoffs.

In the end, Thibs knows his stuff and is a great defensive coach and gets the most out of all of his players. He's not just throwing players out there without a thought. Basketball is a physical sport, and managing minutes is part of coaching. We've seen players under Thibs do well, and honestly, injuries can happen to anyone, anytime, no matter how many minutes you play.

Durant has averaged over 36 min per game - Shaq about 35, Duncan around 34, Luka 35. The leaders last year were Siakam, Kyrie, Tatum, Harden, Van Fleet, Mitchell, Bridges and Randle.

So, let's not get too worked up over minutes. Stars play heavy minutes...its their job and take care fo their bodies so they can do this...

[nykballa2k4]

I feel like if I was to play devil’s advocate here and just grant you your 3 main points, I would still want to roll with Thibs. I would rather watch a team play with increased intensity and physicality than watch a low intensity low physicality load management job. That’s just me. If the injuries happen then they happen. You say cost of doing business and me personally I’m good with that cost. I like watching this team. Hell, even when half the team is injured like it is now I like watching this team compete and win like they did last night.

I don't hear anyone saying to fire Thibs.

The warriors were down by 44 pts at halftime barely clinging to a play in spot on a team where to top players are grizzled vets. I wouldn’t care if Thibs did the same in that scenario but it’s an apples oranges comparison here

It is an exaggeration though of a valid point. There are moments, either full games, or a portion of a game, where taking the likely L rather than trying for the 10% chance of win improves the odds of winning at a more meaningful time.

Randle being in when he was in vs the Heat probably was not a bad decision at that moment. Heat had sufficient time to come back and we have choked against them in the past. OG is known to be oft injured so is it really that surprising that he had an injury? probably no. However what can be said is the amount of playing time in week-long windows increases the chances of those outcomes.

OG may have had this injury prior to the trade and basically it was a question of extreme load management or operation
OR
playing him 40mpg turned a minor easy-to-manage thing into a full blown problem.

Either our team is oddly cursed or there is something to all of these crucial moderate to major injuries and he high playing time numbers

[Jalen Bluntson]

Read on Twitter

bro. they don't wanna hear this. they're averaging 40-44mpg in their minds, which is good enough to rave about.

I'm averaging 48 minutes a game and it's taking a toll on me lately. No easy wins!

Yeah. Ignore the weeks of 40-45 mpg and go on some BS avgs that are meaningless when it comes to how erratic and unnecessary Thibs gets with minutes. Players go from 18-20 mpg to 35-40 with chronic Achilles issues. Players come back from leg injuries and get 40mpg in back to backs. Players who avg 25mpg come here and play 40-44 mpg for a month straight and get hurt. Etc etc etc. Then you see that the bench players have poor chemistry because he never uses them until everyone else is injured. Enough with the BS. Thibs is a moron when it comes to rotations/subs/minutes.

[aromeoj]

bro. they don't wanna hear this. they're averaging 40-44mpg in their minds, which is good enough to rave about.

I'm averaging 48 minutes a game and it's taking a toll on me lately. No easy wins!

Yeah. Ignore the weeks of 40-45 mpg and go on some BS avgs that are meaningless when it comes to how erratic and unnecessary Thibs gets with minutes. Players go from 18-20 mpg to 35-40 with chronic Achilles issues. Players come back from leg injuries and get 40mpg in back to backs. Players who avg 25mpg come here and play 40-44 mpg for a month straight and get hurt. Etc etc etc. Then you see that the bench players have poor chemistry because he never uses them until everyone else is injured. Enough with the BS. Thibs is a moron when it comes to rotations/subs/minutes.

You do understand what an average is correct? Luka has plenty of game where he played 44-47 minutes...don't kid yourself here and think other teams /players don't play their guys heavy minutes.

[cgmw]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

There doesn’t seem to be anything cumulative about a knee contusion caused by a trauma though. You can do whatever lounging and maintenance you want your entire life but if I hit your knee with a baseball bat you might not feel good

I don’t have a medical degree so idk but it sure seems to me that the health of his lower leg would have been greatly impacted by the countless hours of physical preparation and energy expenditure leading into that jumper. I guess we have to agree to disagree, and that’s before we get to the question of whether he should have been on the court at all with the neck injury and just the outrageous usage.

Anyway, this is boring.

If you trust Thibs to lead healthy teams into deep playoff runs, then good for you. I admire the optimism. The entire league is aware that his MO is to grind players to the bone well in advance of the playoffs. Leon knew when he hired him. Nothing has changed and I look forward to the “bad luck” explanations when DDV, Hart, and Precious inevitably get banged up.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I'm averaging 48 minutes a game and it's taking a toll on me lately. No easy wins!

Yeah. Ignore the weeks of 40-45 mpg and go on some BS avgs that are meaningless when it comes to how erratic and unnecessary Thibs gets with minutes. Players go from 18-20 mpg to 35-40 with chronic Achilles issues. Players come back from leg injuries and get 40mpg in back to backs. Players who avg 25mpg come here and play 40-44 mpg for a month straight and get hurt. Etc etc etc. Then you see that the bench players have poor chemistry because he never uses them until everyone else is injured. Enough with the BS. Thibs is a moron when it comes to rotations/subs/minutes.

You do understand what an average is correct? Luka has plenty of game where he played 44-47 minutes...don't kid yourself here and think other teams /players don't play their guys heavy minutes.

No

[cgmw]

bro. they don't wanna hear this. they're averaging 40-44mpg in their minds, which is good enough to rave about.

I'm averaging 48 minutes a game and it's taking a toll on me lately. No easy wins!

Yeah. Ignore the weeks of 40-45 mpg and go on some BS avgs that are meaningless when it comes to how erratic and unnecessary Thibs gets with minutes. Players go from 18-20 mpg to 35-40 with chronic Achilles issues. Players come back from leg injuries and get 40mpg in back to backs. Players who avg 25mpg come here and play 40-44 mpg for a month straight and get hurt. Etc etc etc. Then you see that the bench players have poor chemistry because he never uses them until everyone else is injured. Enough with the BS. Thibs is a moron when it comes to rotations/subs/minutes.

Also that list is disingenuous nonsense. Ask Thibs’ players if their minutes feel the same as Luka’s or KD’s. Minutes in a vacuum are a lazy argument that don’t take into account the actual work these guys are expected to perform; nor the amount of contact on both ends caused by the system; nor the days off. Steve Popper is just happy to spark a debate to get his name in the press.

Blaming Thibs for these injuries is like blaming a zebra for its stripes. Like WTF are you even talking about? Of course Thibs players get worn down and hurt. How could they not?

[TrueWarrior]

Say what you want about Thibs’ minutes allocation, but we should all agree that Thibs is very rigid in his rotation and doesnt trust/develop his bench enough unless he absolutely has to.

For example Deuce was a 3rd stringer until 2 months ago. Precious barely played before Julius/OG got hurt. Donte was only playing 20-25 mpg then too and basically never closed.

They have all proven they can ball now, but they would still only be getting spot/reduced minutes if everyone was healthy and Thibs wouldn’t trust them to ever close games. Now Thibs may have a little more confidence in them, but it was mainly by accident as he was forced to play them big minutes with all the injuries that he partly caused. They were only developed because of the circumstances.

Fournier is averaging 9 ppg in 19 mpg while shooting 46/41/83 on the Pistons so far. He clearly isnt a starter anymore, but could have given us some shooting off the bench sometimes. He didn’t deserve to get sent to the gulag.

Id like to see Jacob Toppin get some spot minutes here and there to give us another body too. He has nice tools and did decently in the Orlando game after he shook the nerves (11 pts on 5-7 shooting with a 3 and 4 boards in 17 min), but he has no chance here. Thibs did the same to Obi who could have played a couple more minutes to spell Julius.

In the end Ive basically accepted Thibs for who he is, but it’s frustrating because he’s close to getting it.

[3toheadmelo]

Man... I got a warning just for wanting to discuss the Mobley thing where he said the loss was due to the Brunson injury or whatever.

Like, wtf? I wasn't even trolling, I genuinely thought it was something worth discussing on the GB cause obviously not gonna discuss the Cavs on the Knicks board and they lock the thread(which is fine) but also give a warning, now I got warning level 2, tf is this crap man... smh.

[nykballa2k4]

Say what you want about Thibs’ minutes allocation, but we should all agree that Thibs is very rigid in his rotation and doesnt trust/develop his bench enough.

For example Deuce was a 3rd stringer until 2 months ago. Precious barely played before Julius/OG got hurt. Donte was only playing 20-25 mpg then too and basically never closed.

They have all proven they can ball now, but they would still only be getting spot/reduced minutes if everyone was healthy and Thibs wouldn’t trust them to close games. Now Thibs may have a little more confidence in them, but it was mainly by accident as he was forced to play them big minutes with all the injuries. They were only developed because of the circumstances.

Fournier is averaging 9 ppg in 19 mpg while shooting 46/42/83 on the Pistons so far. He clearly isnt a starter anymore, but could have given us some shooting off the bench sometimes. He didn’t deserve to get sent to the gulag.

Id like to see Jacob Toppin get some spot minutes here and there too. He did decently in his last game after he shook the nerves, but he has no chance here. Thibs did the same to Obi who could have played a couple more minutes to spell Julius.

In the end Ive basically accepted Thibs for who he is, but it’s frustrating because he’s close to getting it.

My only push back on this is that Precious actually got a few minutes pretty much immediately after the trade. It may have come at C, but he did play out of the gate.

There is no opportunity during games for player development when every game is coached like a must win.

[BKlutch]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

The peroneal nerve can't be injured by overuse or being tired. It requires a contusion. But the fact is that Brunson is at greater risk from the # of minutes he plays (40 minutes has twice the risk of 20 minutes) and from the wear and tear. Last night's injury doesn't mean he can't get something worse. Fortunately, Brunson's style of play and general sturdiness seems to help him tolerate long minutes as well as most players.

The NBA published some data when they issued their requirements for teams not to use load management - they said that load management didn't necessarly reduce injuries. I worked hard on Sunday and could barely walk by the end of the day. If I'd tried to do sports, I'm fairly certain I'd have pulled or sprained something, or worse. Although athletes are in so much better shape than us regular guys, they also do so much more. So while I don't see last night's injury as having any relation to overuse, I do worry about the next injury.

[Gravy]

I remember when Nancy Kerrigan got bashed in the knee with a metal rod. I guess all those cumulative years of skating was the real cause of injury. But I'm no doctor

[KnicksGod]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

There doesn’t seem to be anything cumulative about a knee contusion caused by a trauma though. You can do whatever lounging and maintenance you want your entire life but if I hit your knee with a baseball bat you might not feel good

It's maybe an impossible question to answer but if you have tired legs, I would hypothesize that they're more likely to buckle or react in the wrong way to something. Injuries def do become more likely from fatigue. Just think about how much less control you have over your arms after you lift.

Then again, I am not sure Thibs is causing any of this. I have a bigger problem with him exiling guys or letting the ball stick offensively.

Overall, he's obv effective at beating the team's general over/under.

[KnicksGod]

I remember when Nancy Kerrigan got bashed in the knee with a metal rod. I guess all those cumulative years of skating was the real cause of injury. But I'm no doctor

But in this case, there wasn't an obvious bump or blunt force lol. The Hartenstein thing seems like a red herring.

He jumped and something didn't work right, something got twisted, and maybe we just got lucky that the twisting didn't tear a thing but rather caused a bruise (so a tear of sorts but only of some soft tissue, a bruise). That obviously did affect the nerve, which is why I am still holding my breath.

But if it was a bruise that affected the nerve without damaging it, we should have escaped.