PG: KNICKS vs Cavs - Get Well, Jalen!

[TheGreenArrow]

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[TheGreenArrow]

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He’s always been good with this stuff but Shoutout to Brian for holding us down from the jump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cgmw]

One last thing on this and I’ll kinda let it go, I actually agree Thibs overplays guys and of course overplaying can lead to injury, but when we try to blame him for things like Brunson playing 47 seconds or whatever it was and banging knees with someone which is so very clearly and obviously not the fault of the coach that it dilutes the actual fair criticism. Like there’s no reason we should be talking about Thibs because of that injury but it’s just seems like a default position if anybody gets injured regardless of what happens because of his reputation alone

The part I don’t get is how people keep talking about 47 seconds as if the entirety of the incredible work Jalen has put in prior to those 47 seconds never happened. Injuries to a human body are the result of the cumulative effect of everything that ever happened to your body for the entirety of your entire life right up until the moment you get hurt. The fact that Jalen has been a warrior this season with GP’d, minutes, high usage, charges drawn, contact at the rim, etc. doesn’t magically disappear when he bangs knees with iHart.

Anyway, I’ve been on repeat attempting to explain what seems to be basic common sense but people just see 47 seconds and that’s that.

As for the “blame Thibs” nonsense, my point is who the F cares? I’m not a judge or jury. I don’t have hiring or firing power. I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished and also don’t hesitate to call out the very obviously reality that his methods lead to injuries. That’s ok. I’m okay with it, anyway. Is that me blaming Thibs? I don’t think so, but hey if that’s the reductionist simplicity that you need, go for it.

The peroneal nerve can't be injured by overuse or being tired. It requires a contusion. But the fact is that Brunson is at greater risk from the # of minutes he plays (40 minutes has twice the risk of 20 minutes) and from the wear and tear. Last night's injury doesn't mean he can't get something worse. Fortunately, Brunson's style of play and general sturdiness seems to help him tolerate long minutes as well as most players.

The NBA published some data when they issued their requirements for teams not to use load management - they said that load management didn't necessarly reduce injuries. I worked hard on Sunday and could barely walk by the end of the day. If I'd tried to do sports, I'm fairly certain I'd have pulled or sprained something, or worse. Although athletes are in so much better shape than us regular guys, they also do so much more. So while I don't see last night's injury as having any relation to overuse, I do worry about the next injury.

He’s been so incredibly impressive. It’s just hard to imagine a scenario where Thibs encourages him to rest or give anything less than his usual 110% even on a random Tuesday in November or late in a game when the outcome has already been determined. You start piling up these black eyes, sprained thumbs, neck spasms, and knee contusions and that kind of stress would definitely make it more likely for a normal human to suffer another injury.

There’s a difference between Kawhi-Leonard levels of load management and the basic intelligence to sit Jalen late in blowouts or take the occasional night off if he’s banged up. If Thibs isn’t willing to reduce his minutes, you’d think he’d at least adjust lineups to offer Jalen more protection to hide as a defender or take plays off on offense to defer to a secondary scorer. But that’s not what we’re seeing.

[TrueWarrior]

My only push back on this is that Precious actually got a few minutes pretty much immediately after the trade. It may have come at C, but he did play out of the gate.

There is no opportunity during games for player development when every game is coached like a must win.

Precious was barely playing until Isaiah, Julius, and OG got hurt. From 1/1 - 1/20 he only averaged like 11 mpg, and had 3 games in single digit minutes out of his last 4 before Isaiah’s achilles started acting up.

He was new and getting used to our system, but it was the injuries that forced him into huge PT. He was almost out of the rotation completely, and then led the league in mpg for a month lol.

Meanwhile Donte was only playing 20-25 mpg after the OG trade still. No matter how well he was doing Thibs still closed with Josh over him. Just no trust or flexibility. I assume he’s earned some more rope now.

Deuce still doesnt have Thibs’ full trust either. He clearly doesnt like playing him with Jalen much, but that’s been changing slowly. We’ll see what happens with Alec and Shake, as Thibs likes his size.

My main point is many players respond well to being trusted and some more minutes to get in rhythm. They aren’t robots. Thibs should know this by now.

[F N 11]

Shoutout doc was on top of it. Got us to ease at half time.

[Guano]

That jHart chain snatching gif is cold as hell.

Worth 20m a year just for that sht alone.

[Fat Kat]

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[JayTWill]

Spoiler:

True, but Thibs takes it to an extreme. Just using Deuce as an example again because it's fairly obvious. There's been games he has gotten 5 minutes while we run 7 man rotations with the starters getting 40+ minutes.

It's just not sustainable. In the regular season sometimes you just need young active bodies to eat minutes even if they make mistakes. Thibs is usually pretty reluctant to do that and prefers vets or to play his guys 40+ minutes

Again, still a very good coach. Just one of his flaws

Yeah, I remember Grimes saying something like he felt if he missed a few shots he would be pulled from the game. I thought he was overreacting a bit but seeing how Thibs has handled minutes over the last couple months or so clearly shows his lack of trust in certain players, how his hand has to be forced sometimes to play them and some of the complete randomness of his decision making.

The 2 Memphis games stand out in my mind partly because of how huge of a talent advantage we had against their decimated rotations. In the first game OG played against the T'wolves Brunson played 41 minutes and McBride played 7. Brunson had a terrible shooting game but it was pretty clear that the team was much better with him on the court rather than Deuce. The minutes distribution was clearly warranted.

Fast forward to the first Memphis matchup. Brunson was injured and McBride started the game. The starters came out with no energy. Randle looked like trash. Sloppy turnovers. No defense. Does Thibs sit him for his poor play? No. Flynn eventually comes in for McBride for his first real rotational minutes followed by Precious. It wasn't pretty but Flynn was becoming more comfortable as the minutes went by and Precious brought good energy and the bench maintained the small lead. The starters came back and lost the lead and were down by 4 at half. The bench was more effective in their minutes than the starters were.

In the third quarter the starters and specifically Julius came out with more energy. Julius dominated the inexperienced Memphis rotation and there was a 15 point swing with an 11 point lead going into the 4th. At this point you would think with an 11 point cushion against a G-League level of talent and how the bench performed in the first half Thibs would bring in Flynn and Precious. No. In his mind playing them a single minute could lead to a loss. While already shorthanded at the 1 and 5 he proceeds to play McBride and iHart with achilles soreness that he has been managing for a year for the entire second half. Why?

In the second Memphis matchup Randle and OG were out but the Knicks handled another G-League level of talent pretty easily for 3 quarters and were up by 23 going into the 4th. Brunson started the quarter on the bench with many of us hoping he would not have to play the rest of the game and be able to rest. The bench extended the lead to 26 before the Grizzlies went on a small 6-0 run. A -3 point swing in 4 minutes. Not a huge deal. Thibs immediately called a timeout to get Brunson and iHart back in for Flynn and Taj.

They forced the ball to Brunson leading to 2 straight bad possessions. A forced drive by Precious with no time on the shot clock leading to a blocked shot and 3 from Memphis. Then a forced pass by Brunson in traffic leading to a turnover and another Memphis 3. Another 6-0 run. Was a timeout called? No. Was Brunson pulled? No. The lead then went from 20 to 10 in the 2 minutes Brunson came back until he left the game to injury. The Knicks then maintained the lead of ten for the final 6 minutes of the game without Brunson.
Brunson finished the game -3 while Flynn finished the game +15 but Thibs always likes to mention plus/minus for some reason.

That's part of my issue with Thib's minutes distribution. He makes random decisions based on who he trusts and who he feels comfortable with at the moment. Obviously some players have earned and deserve more trust but sometimes time, score, situation and the way someone is playing should dictate who the minutes should go to but he makes decisions almost from a state of paranoia especially in tougher situations. When things get difficult for even a moment his natural reaction is to just play the guys he trusts more no matter if they are injured, fatigued or just playing awful.

Damn. Look at all this. I can't remember what I had for lunch 3 days ago.

I can't remember many of the other games but I remember being a lot more focused on 3 games this year. The first OG game against Minnesota, the first game after the OG trade where Randle did not have Brunson against Memphis and the next game against Memphis where Brunson played without OG and Randle.

In the process I was shocked at how differently the Memphis coach handled his minutes distribution despite missing almost their entire rotation versus how Thibs distributed minutes on a team that was only missing 2-3 guys. The Memphis coach still found a way to play to a 8-10 man rotation in both games without anyone playing more than 36 minutes. Thibs in contrast was playing a short rotation without even bringing in Fournier versus a g-league team, playing multiple guys 40+ minutes and some guys entire halves. In the end the Grizzlies still made the game competitive in the 4th quarter despite the clear talent gap without all the craziness Thibs does.

Obviously the Grizzlies have conceded this season but Thibs would never do that in the same situation. Memphis should benefit next year from the experience some of their players are getting this year. New York will benefit in the short term from Thibs style but i'm not sure how far his style can take you.

[Gravy]

I remember when Nancy Kerrigan got bashed in the knee with a metal rod. I guess all those cumulative years of skating was the real cause of injury. But I'm no doctor

But in this case, there wasn't an obvious bump or blunt force lol. The Hartenstein thing seems like a red herring.

He jumped and something didn't work right, something got twisted, and maybe we just got lucky that the twisting didn't tear a thing but rather caused a bruise (so a tear of sorts but only of some soft tissue, a bruise). That obviously did affect the nerve, which is why I am still holding my breath.

But if it was a bruise that affected the nerve without damaging it, we should have escaped.

Its officially listed as a knee contusion which means there was a direct impact

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[Galvationknicks]

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[Galvationknicks]

That jHart chain snatching gif is cold as hell.

Worth 20m a year just for that sht alone.

And ppl in here was saying his contract was bad or we paid him too much and we couldn't sign Iq. IQ wasn't going to win the game for us last night. Hart is a value contract with team option last year

[Fat Kat]

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[Galvationknicks]

[KnicksGod]

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That's really good.

[Knick4Real]

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[KnicksGod]

[nykballa2k4]

My only push back on this is that Precious actually got a few minutes pretty much immediately after the trade. It may have come at C, but he did play out of the gate.

There is no opportunity during games for player development when every game is coached like a must win.

Precious was barely playing until Isaiah, Julius, and OG got hurt. From 1/1 - 1/20 he only averaged like 11 mpg, and had 3 games in single digit minutes out of his last 4 before Isaiah’s achilles started acting up.

He was new and getting used to our system, but it was the injuries that forced him into huge PT. He was almost out of the rotation completely, and then led the league in mpg for a month lol.

Meanwhile Donte was only playing 20-25 mpg after the OG trade still. No matter how well he was doing Thibs still closed with Josh over him. Just no trust or flexibility. I assume he’s earned some more rope now.

Deuce still doesnt have Thibs’ full trust either. He clearly doesnt like playing him with Jalen much, but that’s been changing slowly. We’ll see what happens with Alec and Shake, as Thibs likes his size.

My main point is many players respond well to being trusted and some more minutes to get in rhythm. They aren’t robots. Thibs should know this by now.

Once we get everyone back (perhaps I should say IF) he will likely exclusively back up Randle. Thibs will play Randle the usual 38mpg, so he will be right back in that 10mpg range he started with.
No real change.

[Jalen Bluntson]

My only push back on this is that Precious actually got a few minutes pretty much immediately after the trade. It may have come at C, but he did play out of the gate.

There is no opportunity during games for player development when every game is coached like a must win.

Precious was barely playing until Isaiah, Julius, and OG got hurt. From 1/1 - 1/20 he only averaged like 11 mpg, and had 3 games in single digit minutes out of his last 4 before Isaiah’s achilles started acting up.

He was new and getting used to our system, but it was the injuries that forced him into huge PT. He was almost out of the rotation completely, and then led the league in mpg for a month lol.

Meanwhile Donte was only playing 20-25 mpg after the OG trade still. No matter how well he was doing Thibs still closed with Josh over him. Just no trust or flexibility. I assume he’s earned some more rope now.

Deuce still doesnt have Thibs’ full trust either. He clearly doesnt like playing him with Jalen much, but that’s been changing slowly. We’ll see what happens with Alec and Shake, as Thibs likes his size.

My main point is many players respond well to being trusted and some more minutes to get in rhythm. They aren’t robots. Thibs should know this by now.

Once we get everyone back (perhaps I should say IF) he will likely exclusively back up Randle. Thibs will play Randle the usual 38mpg, so he will be right back in that 10mpg range he started with.
No real change.

At least we have a worthy player to help ease Randle back in. Thibs can't possibly try to jam Randle back into the lineup at 35-40mpg can he? Can he?

[Guano]

That jHart chain snatching gif is cold as hell.

Worth 20m a year just for that sht alone.

And ppl in here was saying his contract was bad or we paid him too much and we couldn't sign Iq. IQ wasn't going to win the game for us last night. Hart is a value contract with team option last year

I'm people

[NowWHYcee7]

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Is this what an open and honest update looks like? wow.