Per WOJ - Randle having surgery

[Gravy]

The question the minutes police refuse to answer is will you accept more losses to play players fewer minutes? The interrogation room lighting is too bright for them...

If you will just say it, don't distract from the question or shift the point, no moving goalposts, say it if you will and let it be what it is.

Month of January there was only 1 Knick in the Top 20, 3 Knicks in the Top 50. All at 35 MPG. Mavs, Bulls, Kings, Lakers, and Bucks had 2 players in the Top 20, Suns had 3 in the Top 20.

Everyone will agree we are playing Josh and Deuce, but they are victims of circumstances.

If someone is dead set on blaming somebody, blame the NBA for allowing this year's neck break pace. Throw some blame at Miami (again).

I recently posted about Kawhi, PG, Harden still in a game down 20 with to 5 minutes to go. Its not out of the ordinary or something only Thibs does, its the NBA.

We get hyper focused on minutes here because we watch every second of each game. Other teams are doing the same things and their players are also getting injured in ways we dont pay attention to.

[Wildcat]

You're saying it's hindsight, while coming up with a hypothetical about how Miami could maybe make some shots? I mean, they didn't, I'm basing my argument on the fact we actually won after he got hurt. If it were that critical that he be left in till the very last second then we should have lost that game.

Again, you guys are trying to argue against history, where he has done this with two previous teams, we even saw RJ get hurt in a game that was decided against the Nuggets. Does this need to happen to Jalen before you guys say maybe it's a problem?

If you can use hindsight, why can't I? Fine, let's takeaway hindsight and talk about history.

Facts: Before the injury, the Knicks bench were 26th in the league in PPG. Knicks bench lead the league in committed fouls. Knicks bench was 2nd in committed turnovers. Knicks bench were 25th in FG%. And even in spite of all those low numbers, the Knicks bench ranked 12th in the Knick in MPG.

Knicks have a weak bench. That's history. And history has shown the bench struggles. Especially against a defense like Miami's. Thibs played a 9-man rotation against Miami. Now, this stat is particularly hard to track, but in the 1st half the Knicks bench were +38. In the 2nd half, they were +2. Miami figured something out.

You're using a hypothetical, I'm stating a fact, we kept the lead after he got hurt, your hypothetical is based around the idea that we would have lost had we taken him out at 4:45 instead of 4:30 where he got hurt. Your hypothetical is far more unlikely than what I'm saying, because we won, and it wasn't close even after he got hurt.

He shouldn't have been in the game, we held on after he got hurt. The most important question, was it worth it? Keeping him in the game to hold onto that 17 point lead, which ended up being a 16 point win after he got hurt, was it worth it in the end? He's out for the playoffs and his recovery could bleed into the regular season. History will show another Tom player got hurt late in the game, and his team limped into the playoffs, yet again, because that is a recurring feature of him being a coach. Even when we made the playoffs two years ago it was without Mitch, last year Randle got hurt before them, this year OG, Mitch and Randle. It'll take Jalen getting hurt before you guys finally open your eyes.

I just gave you hard statistics. Forget about what happened in the last 4 minutes. The 20 minutes prior, the bench were below the +/-. And Knicks held onto the lead because the starters were in. It wasn't because of the bench. You can't be +2 and say with a straight face that the bench was solid in the 2nd Half.

Mitch plays 27 MPG since Tom started coaching. Are we A) really saying that's a lot of minutes and B) doesn't have a bit of an injury history? Are we really looking at Randle landing on Bam's foot and blaming Thibs for that? I don't know what you think bone spurs are, but are you really suggesting him playing 1 more per game with the Knicks resulted in the injury? The more obvious conclusion is he had the bone spurs prior to the trade, but thought it was something like mild elbow spring.

[god shammgod]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out" policy that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as these teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

[Wildcat]

I recently posted about Kawhi, PG, Harden still in a game down 20 with to 5 minutes to go. Its not out of the ordinary or something only Thibs does, its the NBA.

We get hyper focused on minutes here because we watch every second of each game. Other teams are doing the same things and their players are also getting injured in ways we dont pay attention to.

Yep. And I pretty sure the people perpetuating this minutes nonsense would prefer Ty over Thibs. And in that particular example with Ty, he was punishing the starters.

If you're looking for a smoking gun, look at the NBA. They want their stars to play. So they play. That's all I'm going to say about that because it becomes a messy rabbit hole (NBA, TV deals, networks, people turning off blowouts, advertisers, etc., etc.). He has the support of the players. If this was a real issue, there would be locker room drama. The only real drama this team has is the disappointment that their team isn't whole.

[Chanel Bomber]

The question the minutes police refuse to answer is will you accept more losses to play players fewer minutes? The interrogation room lighting is too bright for them...

If you will just say it, don't distract from the question or shift the point, no moving goalposts, say it if you will and let it be what it is.

Month of January there was only 1 Knick in the Top 20, 3 Knicks in the Top 50. All at 35 MPG. Mavs, Bulls, Kings, Lakers, and Bucks had 2 players in the Top 20, Suns had 3 in the Top 20.

Everyone will agree we are playing Josh and Deuce, but they are victims of circumstances.

If someone is dead set on blaming somebody, blame the NBA for allowing this year's neck break pace. Throw some blame at Miami (again).

I recently posted about Kawhi, PG, Harden still in a game down 20 with to 5 minutes to go. Its not out of the ordinary or something only Thibs does, its the NBA.

We get hyper focused on minutes here because we watch every second of each game. Other teams are doing the same things and their players are also getting injured in ways we dont pay attention to.

It was a basketball play gone wrong in a situation that is not particularly abnormal for the NBA.

I think as fans we often default to needing to find someone to blame but sometimes it's pointless and I reckon this may be one of those situations.

Which isn't to say that Thibs - and perhaps more significantly the medical staff - hasn't had a hand in some injuries. Some of the criticism is fair. But to pin this one on him seems like a bit of a reach imo.

I've come to terms with the fact this is not our year.

[Wildcat]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out policy" that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as the teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

Yeah, that's a different argument, but I agree that this policy exists in our team. I think the players would have called out Thibs by now if they felt like they were playing beyond their physical capabilities. And they all know they are in a really rough spot without OG and Randle. It sucks.

[Chanel Bomber]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out" policy that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as these teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

I think beyond the blame game, the organization as a whole needs to be wiser about how they manage injuries and games played. Thibs does factor into that but I think it's the organization's responsibility to have a strategic plan for the season and also establish some guardrails.

Be ready to take the fines for load managing Mitch and OG. Reevaluate your medical staff and have a more conservative approach to bringing players back from injury. Be ready to lose a few RS games for managing minutes, particularly from players who are showing signs of fragility.

There needs to be a plan at all levels of leadership.

[TrueWarrior]

Unfortunate, but expected this. Just didnt see how Julius could come back and play physical playoff basketball on a bum shoulder. Sucks, but this is what’s best for him.

Crazy how Julius and OG are hurt like this, and Bojan/Alec have fallen off. I gotta say we could have used Obi this season. Figures Julius gets badly hurt after we traded Obi for nothing.

Time for everyone else to step up now. Donte, Isaiah, Deuce, Josh, Precious, Bojan, Mitch, Alec, etc. Who knows what the hell OG is doing.

[god shammgod]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out" policy that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as these teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

I think beyond the blame game, the organization as a whole needs to be wiser about how they manage injuries and games played. Thibs does factor into that but I think it's the organization's responsibility to have a strategic plan for the season and also establish some guardrails.

Be ready to take the fines for load managing Mitch and OG. Reevaluate your medical staff and have a more conservative approach to bringing players back from injury. Be ready to lose a few RS games for managing minutes, particularly from players who are showing signs of fragility.

There needs to be a plan at all levels of leadership.

yep. probably because this has been such a poverty franchise for so long they are gung ho to push it to the limit every night since they're actually good now but it's not the best long term solution. had they been more conservative and rested guys some then maybe guys stay healthier and we actually win more games which was the outcome they wanted anyway. it's a delicate balance but it seems like we're slightly on the wrong side of it right now.

[KnicksGod]

I for one am not too worried about it. I hope OG comes back and we can be more cautious with JB, and just keep watching Deuce and Precious expand.

[Chanel Bomber]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out" policy that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as these teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

I think beyond the blame game, the organization as a whole needs to be wiser about how they manage injuries and games played. Thibs does factor into that but I think it's the organization's responsibility to have a strategic plan for the season and also establish some guardrails.

Be ready to take the fines for load managing Mitch and OG. Reevaluate your medical staff and have a more conservative approach to bringing players back from injury. Be ready to lose a few RS games for managing minutes, particularly from players who are showing signs of fragility.

There needs to be a plan at all levels of leadership.

yep. probably because this has been such a poverty franchise for so long they are gung ho to push it to the limit every night since they're actually good now but it's not the best long term solution. had they been more conservative and rested guys some then maybe guys stay healthier and we actually win more games which was the outcome they wanted anyway. it's a delicate balance but it seems like we're slightly on the wrong side of it right now.

Agreed.

I'm just hesitant to put the Randle injury in that category because it was a contact injury off a basketball play in a situation where a lot of teams - though not all - would've kept their starters in, especially against their former playoff opponent.

There is no doubt that we don't have the sort of culture whereby the starters would've been pulled at the 5:00 mark. We do prioritize winning game after game, but I don't think that's enough to assume causation in Randle's case. I also think there's something to be said about winning that game against Miami to gain a psychological edge following last year's playoff exit. It was a special game.

However, I think you're right for a lot of other situations including Mitch, OG, iHart, Grimes, who all seemed to be cleared to play prematurely as evidenced by their inability to then stay on the court. I think it happened with RJ too. I focus on these more than Randle's injury because they are indicative of failure in process. And there's a clear pattern.

[Deeeez Knicks]

For the good and the bad, Thibs does coach every game like it's game 7 of the finals. The negative is that it does at times put players in tougher spots and adds to the wear and tear.

While it's hard to pinpoint some injuries it probably does increase the odds of injuries. A lot of injuries seem to occur late in games when players are tired, take the foot off the gas and maybe aren't focused as much. And there's been plenty of times where guys have been hurt and tried to play on or came back too soon (Mitch, OG, Grimes, Brunson, Donte, Hart).

But who knows. We could have the same injuries regardless.

Thibs is doing a great job coaching but does need to chill a little at times and learn to trust his bench more during the regular season

[cgmw]

The more concerning problem is pairing up a perennially injured guy in OG with someone who overworks his players. On paper it’s a match made in heaven but in reality it’s a huge issue.

Would look I to Mikal Bridges this offseason. He doesn’t need to be a lead guy with us and that’s not his game. He’s a high level role player. Having him there would only improve the defense in the lineup and would be great insurance for OG.

We need to consider all options this offseason. Any and all. Brunson won’t be on a his bargain contract much longer and he’s in the elite prime of his career. Need to make bold moves now.

I see where you’re coming from, but you don’t rock the boat when Thibs has unlocked Brunson as a superstar. Not to mention career production from DDV, Hart, Hartenstein, Deuce, Mitch, and even Precious.

Thibs little 4-out iso offense is doing for Brunson and Randle what D’Antoni did for Nash and Lin. I don’t see them shaking that up unless they trade for an alpha superstar like Embiid who won’t tolerate/survive Thibs overworking style.

Rock what boat?

We haven’t won anything of significance. We weren’t a title team this year even when fully healthy.

We have all these draft picks we collected. It’s time to cash in to get a good player. We can’t run it back again and expect to be good with a bunch of guys who are either inconsistent or miss 40% of the NBA season each year. We can’t truly on guys like OG to be contenders or we will never win anything.

The boat that produced All-NBA Randle and soon-to-be All-NBA Brunson.

Cynical take: MSG is fine with regular season accolades and won’t risk it until Thibs’ either misses the playoffs or loses the respect of his Alpha player/s.

No change of significance will happen until both Leon and Thibs get their contracts extended. Thibs is getting another contract. The only Q is how soon Dolan will fire him afterwards.

[cgmw]

"It's never happened in history!"






2018

Whether these injuries can really be attributed to Thibodeau at all, or whether he’s just been a victim of bad luck, nobody can say for sure. However, I do find it surprising that Thibodeau has yet to let his stars have more in the way of rest, especially late in blowouts.

Take, for example, the Wolves victory over the Bulls on Saturday night, when the starters stayed in a game that was hovering around a 20-point advantage for the Wolves. They didn’t head to the bench until just over a minute remained in the game.

https://dunkingwithwolves.com/2018/02/26/does-timberwolves-coach-tom-thibodeau-have-an-injury-problem/

The same goddamn arguments from 2018, with the same goddamn excuses. You can't really blame him, except for the fact it keeps happening to him because he keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

Again, he shouldn't have been in the game.

Denying it is like denying global warming. People just want to believe in nonsense.

I did happen to do well in college statistics, but you don’t need an advanced degree to understand the basic concept that injuries become more probable when you work players harder with more frequency under higher intensity and for longer periods of time.

The people who play dumb denying it seem to be big fans of the random chaos of the universe.

[Gravy]

This all started with the OG trade which made us have one of the worst benches in the league. Before that this has been one of the healthiest teams in the league since Thibs has been here outside of Randle stepping on an ankle and Mitch's usual injuries. If the bench is good Thibs has shown he will use them, like when IQ and Grimes were playing well. The minutes will normalize next season if they have a well rounded team.

[Richard4444]

There's two routes to go this off-season...

1) Stand pat, lock-up iHart and OG, make one more run with this core while maybe swapping Bogs and picks for a bench upgrade... This is a really good option as we'd prob hit 55+ wins and be a top 3 seed with a strong chance at ECF (if healhty)

2) Go big fish hunting... Giannis, Spida, Mikal Bridges, etc. types to get Brunson more help and to move on from the Randle at PF era. In this scenario, there's a strong chance we part ways with Randle, Mitch, and Bogs. The Nova boys are likely kept in tact. This could get us into contention as well, obviously, depending on who we trade for and what we give up.

I'm good with either option. We're in a good place.

I fear we need to go big fish hunting next season. If not in this offseason, we will do it this midseason. The opportunities are rare. And the competition is massive.

We are very near the Second tier. I am almost sure we will be on the second tier by 2025 after the probable Brunson extension kick in. Then, we can not attach salaries to get a star anymore. We would have to trade Randle (or Brunson/OG) for a same salary or a cheaper star.

[Gravy]

i don't know if we overplay guys or not, the randle injury had nothing to do with overuse, but we do sort of have an unofficial "be tough and gut it out" policy that doesn't seem smart in the long run. we're not the only franchise by any means. it's the big reason that kawhi wanted to leave the spurs. the whole team was pressuring him to play and seeing his history since then, he was right as he's never been able to stay healthy again. as a player you have to protect yourself as these teams don't seem to always be looking out for you.

Derrick Rose is often brought up as an example but if Rose really blamed Thibs for his injury why would he keep going back to play for him over and over again on multiple teams. Kawhi wanted nothing to do with the Spurs or Pop when he left.

[3toheadmelo]

cant lie when i saw that nofitication he was out for the rest of the year i was shocked. i thought ian begley or fred katz said he was progressing well. this sucks, but we all kinda knew that it was too late in the season for any of these guys to get back to form in time for the playoffs anyways. i would shut down mitch, og, and ihart for his achilles for the rest of the season. no point in trying to chase a 1st round exit when these guys are hurt and randle is out.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

cant lie when i saw that nofitication he was out for the rest of the year i was shocked. i thought ian begley or fred katz said he was progressing well. this sucks, but we all kinda knew that it was too late in the season for any of these guys to get back to form in time for the playoffs anyways. i would shut down mitch, og, and ihart for his achilles for the rest of the season. no point in trying to chase a 1st round exit when these guys are hurt and randle is out.

I figured he was done, if this were like a Klay Thompson then maybe he could have come back, but his game is so physical that the shoulder was always going to be getting hit. I give him credit for trying, all blame to me falls on Thibodeau for the injury and the medical staff for not pushing him to get it sooner so he's ready for training camp. I haven't been the biggest Randle fan, but just losing him without anything to take his place is just not ideal. The season is done, go to the game thread and you'll see people acting like we're still in it I may have to join you on Team Villain, the amount of people not just getting the hint is crazy.

[sol537]

Prediction: We send Mitch + Randle + ~4 picks for Giannis after his agent asks for a trade.

iHart (extended), Giannis, OG (extended), DDV, Brunson
Bench: Precious, Hard, McBride, Rokas

Come at me.