Calling old heads: Knicks fans love for Bernard King

[Jeffrey]

Over the years, Knicks fans who had the pleasure of watching Bernard King talks about him as one of the most beloved Knicks and possibly higher on the totem pole than Ewing. Rich Eisen who is a Knicks fan says how much he loves Bernard King and even over Ewing. Melo mimics his game to King and professes his love as well. I've heard people say that they haven't loved a guy like Brunson since Bernard King.

I was too young to watch Bernard King but why do old Knicks fans have this love for Bernard King and even more than Ewing? What could've been if he stayed healthy? Was it his personality?

[cgmw]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

[Jeff Van Gully]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

sorry to derail, but this is kinda wack. patrick was not vocal largely because he has never been a confident public speaker. his leadership by example and culture setting and communication with teammates has never been denied.

edit: i mean, knicks ran into jordan and olajuwon while fielding overachieving but sub-optimal rosters. really hard for me to listen to that kind of criticism of patrick.

[cgmw]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

sorry to derail, but this is kinda wack. patrick was not vocal largely because he has never been a confident public speaker. his leadership by example and culture setting and communication with teammates has never been denied.

Fair.

I spent a lot of time around those teams and it’s just my opinion. The 94 loss still stings, and so do the many times Patrick was a d*ck to me in person as a kid. I still love the Big Fella, but his personality is what it is. It went well beyond a fear of public speaking.

Bernard and Jalen, on the other hand, are impossible not to love.

[Jeffrey]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

sorry to derail, but this is kinda wack. patrick was not vocal largely because he has never been a confident public speaker. his leadership by example and culture setting and communication with teammates has never been denied.

@cgmw - thanks for that.

Despite cgmw's comments about Ewing.. there is a love for King that Ewing doesn't get. Ewing gave it all but Knicks fans were on him during the 90s but gave his flowers at the end. I don't hear a lot of that from King's fans. Is it because his tenure as a Knicks too short to get that growl? He wasn't a homegrown player, his tenure was short but great. Was he supposed to be the running mate with Ewing?

[Jeffrey]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

sorry to derail, but this is kinda wack. patrick was not vocal largely because he has never been a confident public speaker. his leadership by example and culture setting and communication with teammates has never been denied.

Fair.

I spent a lot of time around those teams and it’s just my opinion. The 94 loss still stings, and so do the many times Patrick was a d*ck to me in person as a kid. I still love the Big Fella, but his personality is what it is. It went well beyond a fear of public speaking.

Bernard and Jalen, on the other hand, are impossible not to love.

I remember the team followed Ewing and will protect him at all cost. Everyone knew who was the leader and they acted like Ewing... just warriors through and through. I also remember the whole team would shave their heads for the playoffs except for Ewing and we would debate about it. Was that something that bothered you?

[cgmw]

The NBA wasn’t as big a deal yet and King’s teams were never that great. Patrick helped usher in the golden age of the NBA playing the heel to Jordan year in and year out. Close in chronological time but completely different eras of NBA basketball.

[Lord Commander]

Wish I saw more of him. I'm an old head but I only started following seriously in '86. I remember watching him in Washington wondering what could have been with him and Ewing.

[cgmw]

sorry to derail, but this is kinda wack. patrick was not vocal largely because he has never been a confident public speaker. his leadership by example and culture setting and communication with teammates has never been denied.

Fair.

I spent a lot of time around those teams and it’s just my opinion. The 94 loss still stings, and so do the many times Patrick was a d*ck to me in person as a kid. I still love the Big Fella, but his personality is what it is. It went well beyond a fear of public speaking.

Bernard and Jalen, on the other hand, are impossible not to love.

I remember the team followed Ewing and will protect him at all cost. Everyone knew who was the leader and they acted like Ewing... just warriors through and through. I also remember the whole team would shave their heads for the playoffs except for Ewing and we would debate about it. Was that something that bothered you?

No, it didn’t bother me. And it didn’t bother the other players. Because everybody knew Pat was Pat. He did his own thing. He was a bigger deal than everybody else and he knew it. His ego knew it. The fans knew it. It’s why we loved him. He made us legit and was the center of the NYC basketball universe.

When the lights came on, he was always the ultimate warrior. My original point is that IMO he needed BOTH on-court talent and personality to overcome the other massive talents playing back then, notably those Jordan/Pippen teams. Losing to Hakeem, Sam Cassell and Robert Horry was the ultimate let down and 30 years later I still feel salty about it.

[Jeff Van Gully]

i too was a little too young to watch bernard king live. but i also remember patrick eclipsing bernard in terms of regard at the best player we've ever had. also, king's time was great but short and didn't take the team as far as patrick's era did.

i'm not sure how accurate this thesis is or what we have to base it off of. because i don't know the old heads who hold bernard in a higher regard than patrick. i'm sure there are some though.

there's a lot of "what might have been." but healthy bernard king would have bled into a shared era with patrick. not sure if that group maybe takes a chip opportunity from the pistons or something. but by the time the jordan era really began, king was getting on in years, which is why i look at his window with pat being late 80s and VERY early 90s anyway.

[moocow007]

On King...

Yes I was one of the few that was able to watch King play live. King was absolutely amazing. His ability to score was in rare air. King almost always had the bad luck of having next to no talent around him. And this was during a time where they would let players play (not like today where if you look at a star the wrong way you'll get called for a foul). I have never seen a player that was the focus of an opposing teams defense and get hit as much as King used to and yet he'd be able to still get you 30 a night and high efficiency (Wilt Chamberlain was the other guy that comes to mind). King was one of those athletes that appears to see everything around him move in slow motion. It's something that guys like Rod Carew (the great hitter from the Twins) used to say when asked about his otherworldly hitting ability. Carew once memorably said that he sees the pitched ball in slow motion (speaks to his hand eye speed). King operated seemingly in the same way. His ability to find open shots was like that. Even with all the attention, even with 3 guys tailing him he'd always find an opening and as soon as he was open the shot was up. King wasn't the most athletic guy nor the tallest guy but his instincts and reflexes were crazy. King would also absorb hits like nobodies business and still get his. You don't see that a whole lot. It's sad that ultimately the pounding he received trying to basically single handedly carry the team night in night out resulted in his knees getting blown out. Especially sad since Ewing was drafted ahead of that very next season. The two of them together would have changed the Knicks destiny.

On Ewing...

Ewing had the bad luck of coming in the league pretty much at about the same time as Michael Jordan (one draft apart) and having to spend most of his career playing through the GOAT era. He had the bad luck of never being on a team that had enough talent to win it all (it's not hard to argue that while MJ had Pippen as his Robin, the best Ewing had was Starks lol). He also had the bad luck of being constantly compared to a player at the same position that was just better than him that also came into the league at about the same time (talking about Hakeem). I get that Ewing didn't have a reputation as a "vocal leader" (Hakeem was much the same way just an FYI) and someone that a lot of Knick fans (especially at the time) felt had "failed" them by not being able to lead them past (mostly) Jordan and the Bulls. But folks need to put things into perspective. Not being able to beat Jordan wasn't just a Ewing thing, it was an everybody else in the NBA thing. Not having enough talent around him wasn't his fault. And not being as good compared to arguably the most talented center (from a pure skill standpoint) in NBA History doesn't mean he wasn't an exceptional player. It's the same kinda of thing Knick fans have done through the years. Player X isn't Lebron and can't pull gold out his butt so let's lynch him. Ewing not being good enough to beat MJ and not being as good as Hakeem (in the one year that MJ wasn't there) mostly means he wasn't as good as the GOAT and Hakeem. I'd blame the Knicks FO more than Ewing for unable to achieve what the fans wanted desperately for this team to achieve.

[thebuzzardman]

Bernard was a force of nature on the court, but also would drop 40 in the flow, like Brunson

[knicks94]

This is a thread that the old heads will enjoy.

[duetta]

I watched King live too. He was an explosive scorer - and the comparison to Anthony is reasonable, although I would argue that Bernard was emotionally tougher and more focused than Anthony. Bernard recreated himself after leaving New York and became a much more versatile player (with the Bullets). Bianchi and Pitino (The Quitter Within) never should have let him walk for nothing.

Patrick never played alongside a second star (thanks to Scotty Stirling trading what became the rights to Scotty Pippin in insane deals for nonentities named Gerald Henderson and Juwann Oldham). And posters wonder why I am so anti-trades involving #1 draft picks...

[Jeffrey]

This isn't about who is better but my feeling is that people who have watched Bernard King has shown a little more positive than Ewing did. I've always wondered why. It's not about stats or who was better just feelings on fans favorite player. When they talk about King, it comes from "that's my favorite player" whereas Ewing was regarded as the best or 2nd best Knick ever.

[FrozenEnvelope]

I was too young to watch King's career but did watch the majority of Ewing's and I was and currently am I strong supporter and defender of Ewing. I think Ewing had just bad luck of playing during the Jordan era. And like previously mentioned by others, management did not do the greatest job of surrounding him with enough talent. Ewing never had that perennial second All-Star. 1993 was our best chance at a ring imo and Starks was the second best player on that team. I love Starks but he was best suited as the 3rd best on a real contender. And Oakley was never a star just an elite rebounder and defender. You could even say Riley's coaching was the second best strength on those teams.

And in 1994 when Jordan was retired, Starks hurt his knee late in the season which really took his athleticism and limited his explosiveness and driving ability. I also think Starks fell a little too in love with scoring and didn't defend as hard as he did in 92 and 93.

As far as why some fans booed Ewing and pretty much ran him out town, it had a lot to do with the failed guarantees of a championship and he emergence of Houston and Spree imho. Dumb fans bought into the idea that we were a better team without him cause we miraculously beat Indiana in 99. But Ewing was always our best player and it was proven when we went on to have decades long droughts without playoff success and overall success as a franchise. Sadly we have a lot of fickle and dumb fans here. You even see it on this board. We had a lot of regulars here (I posted receipts) who were ready to run Brunson out of here after the first two games.

[moocow007]

This isn't about who is better but my feeling is that people who have watched Bernard King has shown a little more positive than Ewing did. I've always wondered why. It's not about stats or who was better just feelings on fans favorite player. When they talk about King, it comes from "that's my favorite player" whereas Ewing was regarded as the best or 2nd best Knick ever.

Yeah I hear ya. If you ask me who my favorite Knick player of all time is, I'd probably say King (and honestly I'd say my 2nd favorite is MRR). As far as why the views on King is different than Ewing? I think it's because King was never put in a position where he was in a position to win but failed. Not saying that Ewing failed (I don't think he did) but when you are close to the sun the fans tend to want to rail on you if you fail. As far as why Ewing is regarded as the best or 2nd best ever? Probably longevity? King only played for the Knicks for 3 seasons before his knee went and they Knicks parted ways with him. So it's hard to refer to him as the "best Knick ever". If King hadn't injured his knee and remained a Knick for his most of his career he would likely be considered the best Knick ever IMO. Michael Ray Richardson was another player that had elite elite talent but his career didn't last for any of that consideration. Honestly MRR was on his way to being one of the most dynamic players of his era but he screwed it all up with booze and drugs. Folks talk about what if with Ewing and King but if MRR had not screwed his own career up he also would have been in his prime when the Knicks got the frozen envelope nod and landed Ewing. A hypothetical team of Ewing at C, King at SF and MRR at PG would have been insane.

[cgmw]

This isn't about who is better but my feeling is that people who have watched Bernard King has shown a little more positive than Ewing did. I've always wondered why. It's not about stats or who was better just feelings on fans favorite player. When they talk about King, it comes from "that's my favorite player" whereas Ewing was regarded as the best or 2nd best Knick ever.

Yeah I hear ya. If you ask me who my favorite Knick player of all time is, I'd probably say King (and honestly I'd say my 2nd favorite is MRR). As far as why the views on King is different than Ewing? I think it's because King was never put in a position where he was in a position to win but failed. Not saying that Ewing failed (I don't think he did) but when you are close to the sun the fans tend to want to rail on you if you fail. As far as why Ewing is regarded as the best or 2nd best ever? Probably longevity? King only played for the Knicks for 3 seasons before his knee went and they Knicks parted ways with him. So it's hard to refer to him as the "best Knick ever". If King hadn't injured his knee and remained a Knick for his most of his career he would likely be considered the best Knick ever IMO. Michael Ray Richardson was another player that had elite elite talent but his career didn't last for any of that consideration. Honestly MRR was on his way to being one of the most dynamic players of his era but he screwed it all up with booze and drugs. Folks talk about what if with Ewing and King but if MRR had not screwed his own career up he also would have been in his prime when the Knicks got the frozen envelope nod and landed Ewing. A hypothetical team of Ewing at C, King at SF and MRR at PG would have been insane.

I was critical of Ewing above but he’s the GOAT Knick since 1973 and it’s not even close. It’s what makes Brunson so exciting. He has a real chance to surpass Pat and approach Clyde/Willis territory. I was never fooled by Melo or Marbury before that. But rn Brunson has me believing in incredible things.

[SelbyCobra]

Pat was definitely an introvert, but much of that stoic and non-verbal image was built by the absolutely ridiculous amount of racism he faced in Massachusetts as a high school star, and then at Georgetown in college.

From Ewing's high school coach:

https://www.audacy.com/cbssportsradio/sports/nba/mike-jarvis-writes-script-about-racism-patrick-ewing-endured

"We had bricks thrown through the windows of our yellow school bus," Jarvis recently explained on the "New York Accent" podcast. "We had tires slashed. We had fights -- it seemed like in every game. There were fights in the stands. There were people at times dressing up in gorilla outfits and throwing banana peels on the floor. And it got really, really ugly when he chose Georgetown over Boston College."

And this from a WaPo article 41 years ago:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1983/02/09/ewing-under-siege/a17fe474-6ec8-42a9-8ad6-19880d4d9990/

At Providence nearly three weeks ago, a fan under one basket raised a sign that read, "Ewing Can't Read," and Coach John Thompson pulled his Georgetown basketball team off the court until the sign was taken down.

Nine days ago at the Palestra in Philadelphia, Villanova fans held up several similar signs. One raised bedsheet read, "Ewing Is An Ape." A fan wore a T-shirt that read, "Ewing Kant Read Dis."

And when Patrick Ewing, Georgetown's 7-foot sophomore center, ran out for pregame introductions, someone in the Palestra crowd threw a banana peel on the court.

The signs and the jeers against Ewing, one of the most dominant players in college basketball, are increasing with every Big East Conference road game. The tensions grow.

Pat wanted nothing to do with anyone after nearly a decade of abuse before he got to the league. Why trust anyone after enduring that kind of trauma when you're just trying to play ball and compete? It's why he chose GTown and Thompson after hearing the fans in high school, in the first place - JT was a protector/nurturer of black boys/men in an industry that only sought to use them.

[KnixtapeH20]

Bernard was a gentleman. Well spoken, affable, smiling, and clearly brilliant. His teams weren’t as good as Ewing’s, and frankly Bernard even at the height of his powers wasn’t as big of a deal as Patrick was at Georgetown.

Ewing was an introverted curmudgeon. His lack of leadership IMO was a contributing factor to why his teams never overcame MJ or Hakeem. However, Patrick came up in the age of the Big Man and was one of the best to ever do it. Also just my opinion, but Pat begrudgingly passed the torch to Shaq as the dominant collegiate big man that fascinated the sports world.

Bernard’s Knick comp is definitely Melo, not Pat. I’ll stay out of that debate, but I have love for all three.

What we’re really talking about here is the current superstar situation where we have a brilliant, affable, phenom like Bernard who’s playing bigger than Pat. Only question is, how far can the legend of Brunson take us?

First of all u throwing too many big words at me... now bc I don't understand them imma take em as disrespect... watch ya mouth n help me with the sale