The Official 101 Thread: Offseason, Cap etc

30andoverclub · Post #61 » by **30andoverclub** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:40 am

Would the following be a possible scenario and are the numbers accurate (I'm estimating to make the math simpler)?

Lee's cap hold is 150% of his current salary. So, if the Knicks miss the playoffs, his cap hold would be $10.5M? So, if we have $33M in cap space, his cap hold decreases it to $22.5M. We sign a max player (say LeBron) for $16.5M or so. That leaves $6M to sign a few additional players (say we split it between Sergio and T-Mac).

As we still have Lee's Bird rights, can we now go over the cap to resign him? If Toronto is afraid of losing Bosh for nothing (say to Miami), can we sign Lee on declining contract starting at $13.5M and ending at $9M? Then use the 125% rule to trade him to Toronto for Bosh who would sign a max contract? It's a really complicated thought, but if that would work, it would make it easier for us to sign additional role players while still getting two max players.

Sergio, T-Mac, LeBron, Gallinari, Bosh, Chandler, Douglas, as an example. Curry, heh.

fazer86 · Post #62 » by **fazer86** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:40 am

Hey guys im a mavz fan but i wanted to ask you Knick fans a question regarding Eddy CUrry without creating a thread for it...cause its not that big a deal

I think in 07-08 he had a pretty good season for you guys.

Question #1
Can this guy still play at a pretty good level?

Q2
Is Diantoni just being a prick and not playing him or is their just the concern about his heart issue he had a few years back?...

thanks guys i was just wonderin cause when in was a 8th grader this dude had a little show about him on foxsports about how he was gonna be the next big thing but he never really developed into anything

TdoubleE · Post #63 » by **TdoubleE** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:47 am

daheata wrote:When exactly do the Knicks have to make the decision to renounce David Lee? Could they keep his rights and (the possibility of signing him using the Bird exception) after July 1st, scope out the landscape and talk to free agents, then renounce him at some later point if they have a better use for the cap hold, i.e. signing a second max player? In other words, let's say that on July 15 LBJ and Bosh both decide they want to play together for the Knicks. Could we at that point renounce D-Lee to make it happen?

I had pretty much the same question but I haven't seen it answered yet. Anyone know the answer to this?

pabloloza · Post #64 » by **pabloloza** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:52 am

i was wondering, if we first sign two max contracts, can we do a s&t with lee?
for example on draft night, lee and someone else for (bosh for example)

ITGM · Post #65 » by **ITGM** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:53 am

I believe as of right now we can't. We must renounce all rights in order to sign 2 Max FA's. If we move Curry then Yea we could.

kosmovitelli · Post #66 » by **kosmovitelli** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:56 am

TdoubleE wrote:
daheata wrote:When exactly do the Knicks have to make the decision to renounce David Lee? Could they keep his rights and (the possibility of signing him using the Bird exception) after July 1st, scope out the landscape and talk to free agents, then renounce him at some later point if they have a better use for the cap hold, i.e. signing a second max player? In other words, let's say that on July 15 LBJ and Bosh both decide they want to play together for the Knicks. Could we at that point renounce D-Lee to make it happen?

I had pretty much the same question but I haven't seen it answered yet. Anyone know the answer to this?

Yes. As soon as we have the agreement of two max players we can renounce David Lee to make that happen. We don't need to renounce anyone right away.

Last year, Colangelo reached an agreement with Turkoglu during the july moratorium (to sign him he needed to renounce Marion and Carlos Delfino). In the end he didn't renounce those guys, he found a way to trade for Turkoglu and he also traded Delfino.

The downside is while we're negotiating with max players, David Lee can also agree to sign with another team.

drj · Post #67 » by **drj** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:05 am

Thanks for all the work Kosmo! That was super-helpful. Many thanks.

Suggestion to mods:
What about a read-only thread for Knicks info, stickied and locked, which mods could add stuff to at their discretion. This thread would only have pure info -- no opinions, rumors, or speculations. And Kosmo's post could be the first post in the thread. After all, there are going to be endless questions about our capspace details between now and the offseason, and it would be so much easier to have this info readily available.

kosmovitelli · Post #68 » by **kosmovitelli** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:06 am

pabloloza wrote:i was wondering, if we first sign two max contracts, can we do a s&t with lee?
for example on draft night, lee and someone else for (bosh for example)

Obviously no.
1) You can't trade a player on the last year of his contract after the trade deadline (you can't do it on draft night, after the trade deadline only a sign and trade is possible and it can be done in july)
2) You need to renounce Lee in order to sign two max free agents, after a player is renounced he can still be signed and traded but not with an exception (except the minimum exception). As we won't have any room left after signing two max players, there is no way we can sign and trade Lee.

Da_Mane_Man · Post #69 » by **Da_Mane_Man** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:10 am

i just realized something about them ...

WE DON'T HAVE ANY!!

we will only have about 4 players on the roster ... and one of them is eddy curry! we can't give gallo, chandler or td away cause then the player we're getting won't wanna come to an empty team. i guess dave is our only chip ...

JimmyDolan · Post #70 » by **JimmyDolan** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:11 am

Stupid question

Is it possible to complete a sign and trade with David Lee for draft picks and two days later sign two MAX players?

Would Lee and Bartelstein be agreeable to going to Toronto in a sign and trade for Bosh?They seem to be very picky about not wanting to go to certain teams.

Madmax 134 · Post #71 » by **Madmax 134** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:15 am

Da_Mane_Man wrote:i just realized something about them ...

WE DON'T HAVE ANY!!

we will only have about 4 players on the roster ... and one of them is eddy curry! we can't give gallo, chandler or td away cause then the player we're getting won't wanna come to an empty team. i guess dave is our only chip ...

No kidding and I doubt any Agent advises his client to take less than the max especially given the fact that there is a lockout looming and also an eminent salary role back.

If Walsh is smart he would take the cap space and build a team minus the big 3

Lee, Gay, Amare, Felton, Haywood would be the guys I would look to sign to reasonable contracts.

orangeblobman · Post #72 » by **orangeblobman** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:17 am

Yea..now that I think about it..it's definitely looking like no max guys. Maybe in 2011...Melo is the new Lebron for us. Another year.

kasino · Post #73 » by **kasino** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:18 am

That post was great

TdoubleE · Post #74 » by **TdoubleE** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:20 am

kosmovitelli wrote:
TdoubleE wrote:
daheata wrote:When exactly do the Knicks have to make the decision to renounce David Lee? Could they keep his rights and (the possibility of signing him using the Bird exception) after July 1st, scope out the landscape and talk to free agents, then renounce him at some later point if they have a better use for the cap hold, i.e. signing a second max player? In other words, let's say that on July 15 LBJ and Bosh both decide they want to play together for the Knicks. Could we at that point renounce D-Lee to make it happen?

I had pretty much the same question but I haven't seen it answered yet. Anyone know the answer to this?

Yes. As soon as we have the agreement of two max players we can renounce David Lee to make that happen. We don't need to renounce anyone right away.

Last year, Colangelo reached an agreement with Turkoglu during the july moratorium (to sign him he needed to renounce Marion and Carlos Delfino). In the end he didn't renounce those guys, he found a way to trade for Turkoglu and he also traded Delfino.

The downside is while we're negotiating with max players, David Lee can also agree to sign with another team.

Got it, thanks!

FutureKnicksGM · Post #75 » by **FutureKnicksGM** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:24 am

drj wrote:
3. Our own backup option if no one else comes. Hopefully it won't come to that! And if it does, it is not obvious we should make a long term commitment to Lee, rather than gunning for 2011 FA.

Pretty much. But if no one else comes, i would sign Lee to a fair deal, hopefully around $9M per year. Then I would look to ship him out for the best offer we can get(hopefully picks and expirings) from DEC 15 onwards.

Knicksick · Post #76 » by **Knicksick** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:09 pm

I'm not worried about filling the roster. We have two second round picks,Douglas,Gallo,Chandler--that's about 5 players on cheap contracts and it is also good value. IMO Gallo and Chandler are ideal 3rd and 4th options. Both are getting 15/5 this season and are bound to improve further. If we are lucky enough to get two Max FAs then all you need is like 3 decent rotation players that can stay healthy.

We also have David Lee as possible sign and trade candidate but more important we'll have Curry's expiring contract which could easily net us 1 or 2 decent rotation players on longterm contract.

We certainly aren't gonna have a deep ass team if we sign two max FAs but we'll still be able to get a good 8man rotation.

Don't leave out the guys that get attracted by a title contending NY team (like Camby for example).There will be opportunities once we sign two Max Fas.

The thing I'm worried about is getting those two guys. Once we have them everything else will fall into place.

towelie · Post #77 » by **towelie** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:23 pm

Yea..now that I think about it..it's definitely looking like no max guys. Maybe in 2011...Melo is the new Lebron for us. Another year.

You realize if our target was 2011 FA, we could've just sat on Jeffries' contract and kept our picks + Jordan Hill? Not gonna happen.

We're putting all our chips in for 2010, even if that means getting lesser players like Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay.

hoopdata · Post #78 » by **hoopdata** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:28 pm

To answer some questions:

Yes, we can sign-and-trade David Lee to a team for draft picks. Trading him just for draft picks probably wouldn't be all to helpful, though, seeing that any team we could sign-and-trade him to for no returning contracts would be under the cap and able to sign him outright anyway, while sign-and-trading him for contracts probably isn't going to help our situation much.

If we sign one max player for 16million, another free agent for 6million, and don't renounce Lee at 10million, we can then sign-and-trade Lee for a contract more than 10million, because we have his Bird Rights. The problem is any contract we sign Lee to that is over 8.4million (120% of his previous salary) would make him a BYC player, making it extremely hard to trade him. In other words, this probably isn't a viable option.

I honestly don't see much of an angle for sign-and-trades being attractive. We have no reason to sign-and-trade because we have plenty of cap room ourselves, none of our targets are restricted except for Rudy Gay, and sign-and-trading would mean we'd have to give up assets and/or players, two things we're extremely, extremely short on.

Knicksick · Post #79 » by **Knicksick** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:30 pm

towelie wrote:
Yea..now that I think about it..it's definitely looking like no max guys. Maybe in 2011...Melo is the new Lebron for us. Another year.

You realize if our target was 2011 FA, we could've just sat on Jeffries' contract and kept our picks + Jordan Hill? Not gonna happen.

We're putting all our chips in for 2010, even if that means getting lesser players like Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay.

Yeah definitely. Walsh likes to talk about future possibilities but if he doesn't get this team to 50 win level this offseason he should be fired right away. If next years draft pick is a lottery pick then he should be fired right away because he failed to accomplish his goals.

Moose · Post #80 » by **Moose** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:41 pm

In the last 10+ years, Walsh is the only guy who understands what has to be done...and you want to fire him because guys didn't want to come to a crappy Knick team built by the Laydens and Thomas's of the world?

If after 2011, Walsh misses out on Melo (who I think will instantly come here) and/or Paul...then take a look at the team and the direction it is headed...

Personally...if he signs one real good young player this offseason, and then gets someone like Melo in 2011...I'll be happy even if we surrendered a high draft pick.

Signing 2 top 10 players who are under age 28 should be the goal...Lebron and Bosh fit that bill...hopefully it happens...I don't see it happening though...I really feel Melo will be a Knick...hopefully everyone can just be patient if Plan A falls through...If we miss out after 2011, or we signed a bunch of mediocre talent that is going to start the cap hell process again, then make a change...until then...wait.