Moderators: UCF, Knightro, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, SOUL, ChosenSavior
eyriq wrote:Ah, gotcha. I thought you were talking about last season and couldn't connect the dots.
Keep a spot warm for me on your take, if we extend Cole or Fultz early I'm all aboard. If we start out the season with Black out of the rotation I'll be alarmed. If we early extend a guard and bench Black I'll be on high alert.
Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:Ah, gotcha. I thought you were talking about last season and couldn't connect the dots.
Keep a spot warm for me on your take, if we extend Cole or Fultz early I'm all aboard. If we start out the season with Black out of the rotation I'll be alarmed. If we early extend a guard and bench Black I'll be on high alert.
I’ll take it a step further than that.
Even if Black is in the rotation, but he’s playing as a backup wing, how beneficial is that to him or the Magic long-term anyway?
three3d wrote:Playing as a backup wing? How’s he going to play backup wing without a shot? Defense will sag off him doubling Paolo and/or Franz making it harder for them to score. Black honestly doesn’t have a clear position IMO.
Catledge wrote:I think the most likely of the possible explanations that people don't like is that Black is a wing and Howard is a combo forward.
By this logic, both have clear paths to playing time: Black has to outplay Harris, and Howard has to have a pulse when Isaac gets hurt.
To anticipate a point that has been made upthread: Lots and lots of rookie wings can't shoot. It's incredibly common and is part of what makes them projects.
pepe1991 wrote:Catledge wrote:I think the most likely of the possible explanations that people don't like is that Black is a wing and Howard is a combo forward.
By this logic, both have clear paths to playing time: Black has to outplay Harris, and Howard has to have a pulse when Isaac gets hurt.
To anticipate a point that has been made upthread: Lots and lots of rookie wings can't shoot. It's incredibly common and is part of what makes them projects.
There is no objective adventage for Black at SF position. No jumpshot, average size, average height, average first step.
His only adventage in basketball is his size at PG.
Jett has Ingles ahead of him. As well as Houstan and Okeke as competition
eyriq wrote:I love the nuance between having a goal to improve vs having a goal to make the playoffs.
Also cool is that we were that last team to be eliminated from the play-in.
Lots to build on. Ingles is the perfect vet to bring in for leadership, and his on-court role is a perfect fit for our rotation.
Contract years for pretty much all our guards except for the lotto studs we've drafted during the rebuild. Could see some elevated play in the backcourt.
Curious how the dynamic between Paolo and Franz matures, especially after they compete in the world cup.
And of course there is the wildcard of Isaac.
We are due an injury free season, and if the stars align I think we are a top 5 defense.
pepe1991 wrote:Catledge wrote:I think the most likely of the possible explanations that people don't like is that Black is a wing and Howard is a combo forward.
By this logic, both have clear paths to playing time: Black has to outplay Harris, and Howard has to have a pulse when Isaac gets hurt.
To anticipate a point that has been made upthread: Lots and lots of rookie wings can't shoot. It's incredibly common and is part of what makes them projects.
There is no objective adventage for Black at SF position. No jumpshot, average size, average height, average first step.
His only adventage in basketball is his size at PG.
RichCollab wrote:I agree Jett has an easier path to playing time. Black at best day 1 is an upgrade to defense at the PG?
fendilim wrote:RichCollab wrote:I agree Jett has an easier path to playing time. Black at best day 1 is an upgrade to defense at the PG?
Considering Black’s size, I’d be shocked if he is limited to only PG play. I think he’ll get consistent minutes from PG to SF position.
Minutes shouldn’t be a problem for both Howard and Black.
We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.
pepe1991 wrote:Catledge wrote:I think the most likely of the possible explanations that people don't like is that Black is a wing and Howard is a combo forward.
By this logic, both have clear paths to playing time: Black has to outplay Harris, and Howard has to have a pulse when Isaac gets hurt.
To anticipate a point that has been made upthread: Lots and lots of rookie wings can't shoot. It's incredibly common and is part of what makes them projects.
There is no objective adventage for Black at SF position. No jumpshot, average size, average height, average first step.
His only adventage in basketball is his size at PG.
Jett has Ingles ahead of him. As well as Houstan and Okeke as competition
RichCollab wrote:fendilim wrote:RichCollab wrote:I agree Jett has an easier path to playing time. Black at best day 1 is an upgrade to defense at the PG?
Considering Black’s size, I’d be shocked if he is limited to only PG play. I think he’ll get consistent minutes from PG to SF position.
Minutes shouldn’t be a problem for both Howard and Black.
We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.
I hope he doesn’t play SG or SF. He doesn’t have a shot? He will be a negative on the floor with either Paolo or Franz. Him playing SG/SF for Magic makes absolutely 0 sense.
fendilim wrote:RichCollab wrote:fendilim wrote:Considering Black’s size, I’d be shocked if he is limited to only PG play. I think he’ll get consistent minutes from PG to SF position.
Minutes shouldn’t be a problem for both Howard and Black.
We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.
I hope he doesn’t play SG or SF. He doesn’t have a shot? He will be a negative on the floor with either Paolo or Franz. Him playing SG/SF for Magic makes absolutely 0 sense.
Did that stop us from playing Fultz with Paolo or Franz?
RichCollab wrote:fendilim wrote:RichCollab wrote:
I hope he doesn’t play SG or SF. He doesn’t have a shot? He will be a negative on the floor with either Paolo or Franz. Him playing SG/SF for Magic makes absolutely 0 sense.
Did that stop us from playing Fultz with Paolo or Franz?
Fultz at PG and not SF/SG. Also, I don’t think we want to replicate what we did with Fultz to another position.
Catledge wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Catledge wrote:I think the most likely of the possible explanations that people don't like is that Black is a wing and Howard is a combo forward.
By this logic, both have clear paths to playing time: Black has to outplay Harris, and Howard has to have a pulse when Isaac gets hurt.
To anticipate a point that has been made upthread: Lots and lots of rookie wings can't shoot. It's incredibly common and is part of what makes them projects.
There is no objective adventage for Black at SF position. No jumpshot, average size, average height, average first step.
His only adventage in basketball is his size at PG.
This is kind of another way of saying that he has the build and athleticism of a wing, isn't it? I mean, there is a reason why very few players with his size become fulltime PGs, and Black doesn't seem to have the kind of elite ball handling that is typically required of big lead guards.
Off the top of my head, the only two lead guards in the league with Black's size are Harden and Luka. If Black turns out to have that level of ball handling and passing without the jump shot, then he is a PG, but that seems pretty unlikely to me at this stage.
As to Jett's path to playing time as a forward, Houstan and Okeke aren't really penciled into the nine-man rotation, and not having to unseat an established player seems consistent with having a path to playing time. Isaac and Ingles are both likely to be on minutes restrictions and to be held out of back-to-backs, and that's when both are nominally healthy, which seems unlikely to be the norm.
pepe1991 wrote:Catledge wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
There is no objective adventage for Black at SF position. No jumpshot, average size, average height, average first step.
His only adventage in basketball is his size at PG.
This is kind of another way of saying that he has the build and athleticism of a wing, isn't it? I mean, there is a reason why very few players with his size become fulltime PGs, and Black doesn't seem to have the kind of elite ball handling that is typically required of big lead guards.
Off the top of my head, the only two lead guards in the league with Black's size are Harden and Luka. If Black turns out to have that level of ball handling and passing without the jump shot, then he is a PG, but that seems pretty unlikely to me at this stage.
As to Jett's path to playing time as a forward, Houstan and Okeke aren't really penciled into the nine-man rotation, and not having to unseat an established player seems consistent with having a path to playing time. Isaac and Ingles are both likely to be on minutes restrictions and to be held out of back-to-backs, and that's when both are nominally healthy, which seems unlikely to be the norm.
PG: Fultz / Cole
SG: Harris / Suggs
SF : Franz /Ingles
PF: Banchero / Isaac
C : Wendell /
i think that's 9 men active rotation.
If Isaac is broken ( again) than AB , OKeke, Jett, Houstan will fight it out for 9th man. But also 9th man is probably 12-18 mpg low usage player.
Under current roster construction and some playoff aspirations ( and players who almost all are in contract years) to me, active roster is pretty much set, if there is no injuries going into a season. Things can change over time, and probably will but for time being i really struggle to see Jett in active rotation and i see AB as fringe man in rotation,
And to touch on Knightros & MM "Free throws " being difference between Fultz and AB, i would not bank on that claim just yet. After 3 SL game , Black went to ft line 3,6 times a game. That's not bad, but he isn't some knockdown FT shooter either. 70% in ncaa, 6-11 in SL.
Especially because i just don't see how he will break down defense on regular bases and get at rim other than bulldogging through defender. That strategy was something we thought Suggs will be able to do ( as waaaaaaaaay better athlete, quicker, faster, with bigger bounce etc) but it simply doesn't work for him due rather limited ability to suprise defense with jumpshots, floaters, mediocre ballhandling skills and rather poor decision making.
Black is probably smarter player than Suggs, but also worst athlete.
Right now people are simply fooling themslefs if they think Black is any scoring treat in any way, fashion nor form but going at rim. I also don't think he is some epic playmaker that some people delude themselfs into thinking. I think he is similar prospect to Scottie Barnes, in sense that he will look great if team around him actually decides to play to his strenghts ( that probably won't help team win games any time soon, like it was case with rookie season of Barnes) but also he will look very mediocre if team decides to drift from defering to him ( Scottie Barnes second year).
In modern basketball if you aren't cutter ,aren't elite playmaker, aren't elite scorer, you simply aren't starting level player. Especially not PG nor SF.
At the end of a day, Black on Magic makes no sense. We can talk to oblivion how potential trades will solve it, but until they happend, it stands, Anthony Black, as 6th pick, makes no sense on Orlando Magic. He is just arhytype of less potent scoring Jalen Suggs who just happends to be bit taller. That's pretty much it.
I'm also fed up with "almost made playin " talk. Like it's some grand achivment. you litearlly need to be better than 4 out of 14 teams to get there. And among those 4, at least 3 don't even try.
fendilim wrote:We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.
