RealGM

GelbeWand09 wrote:

eyriq wrote:

Knightro wrote:
Are they actually though?

If it doesn’t work out with Mitchell and they’re forced to trade him, they’re left with… the same core group of Garland, Mobley and Allen that they started with?

Plus they’ll have whatever they get back for Mitchell, which will likely be significant.

I think it’s a trade you do 10 times out of 10 if you’re Cleveland.

If they let it grow organically, they’re probably stuck in no man’s land of being a 5-10 seed with no real chance to get out of the first round, but also not bad enough to get another impact player in the draft.

"September 3, 2022: Traded Ochai Agbaji, Lauri Markkanen, Collin Sexton, a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2026 1st round draft pick, a 2027 1st round draft pick, a 2028 1st round draft pick and a 2029 1st round draft pick to the Utah Jazz for Donovan Mitchell. Cleveland also received a trade exception 2025 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2026 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2027 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2028 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2029 1st-rd pick is CLE own"

That's a lot of value for very little return. They went all in on a contender and now they're ready to fire their coach in the midst of an identity crisis.

Minnesota is a positive example. Everyone laughed about the Gobert trade but he was Utah's best player & the floor raiser. They added a guy to improve their weakness (Defense) & they done it without losing McDaniels, instead send a extra pick who probably will never be as good as McDaniels is unlike the Cavs losing picks & good young players to double down on small guards.
Not a perfect trade (til they win a chip) because even without McDaniels they overpaid a bit pickwise, because Goberts value was at a alltime low leaquewide, but they are a real contender now instead of a laughing stock like the last 15 years.

My question for them; is it worth moving up the championship window when Edwards is still so young and very unlikely to lead them to a chip?

What's the point of contending if you aren't really a viable contender? By the time Edwards is ready to lead them Gobert is going to be out of his prime.

eyriq wrote:

GelbeWand09 wrote:

eyriq wrote:"September 3, 2022: Traded Ochai Agbaji, Lauri Markkanen, Collin Sexton, a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2026 1st round draft pick, a 2027 1st round draft pick, a 2028 1st round draft pick and a 2029 1st round draft pick to the Utah Jazz for Donovan Mitchell. Cleveland also received a trade exception 2025 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2026 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2027 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2028 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2029 1st-rd pick is CLE own"

That's a lot of value for very little return. They went all in on a contender and now they're ready to fire their coach in the midst of an identity crisis.

Minnesota is a positive example. Everyone laughed about the Gobert trade but he was Utah's best player & the floor raiser. They added a guy to improve their weakness (Defense) & they done it without losing McDaniels, instead send a extra pick who probably will never be as good as McDaniels is unlike the Cavs losing picks & good young players to double down on small guards.
Not a perfect trade (til they win a chip) because even without McDaniels they overpaid a bit pickwise, because Goberts value was at a alltime low leaquewide, but they are a real contender now instead of a laughing stock like the last 15 years.

My question for them; is it worth moving up the championship window when Edwards is still so young and very unlikely to lead them to a chip?

What's the point of contending if you aren't really a viable contender? By the time Edwards is ready to lead them Gobert is going to be out of his prime.

Edwards is maybe the best player of the playoffs so far & Minnesota looks like a real contender. They are ready now. Why should they wait? If they wait KAT gets old & they need 1 or 2 other great players to surround Edwards. All that trying to lure those guys to cold Minnesota.

eyriq wrote:

Knightro wrote:

eyriq wrote:Cavs are a cautionary tale about accelerating an otherwise organic build with a high end player acquisition.

Are they actually though?

If it doesn’t work out with Mitchell and they’re forced to trade him, they’re left with… the same core group of Garland, Mobley and Allen that they started with?

Plus they’ll have whatever they get back for Mitchell, which will likely be significant.

I think it’s a trade you do 10 times out of 10 if you’re Cleveland.

If they let it grow organically, they’re probably stuck in no man’s land of being a 5-10 seed with no real chance to get out of the first round, but also not bad enough to get another impact player in the draft.

"September 3, 2022: Traded Ochai Agbaji, Lauri Markkanen, Collin Sexton, a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2026 1st round draft pick, a 2027 1st round draft pick, a 2028 1st round draft pick and a 2029 1st round draft pick to the Utah Jazz for Donovan Mitchell. Cleveland also received a trade exception 2025 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2026 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2027 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2028 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2029 1st-rd pick is CLE own"

That's a lot of value for very little return. They went all in on a contender and now they're ready to fire their coach in the midst of an identity crisis.

Yeah but what was the alternative? Two years of finishing somewhere in the 5 to 10 seed range? Competitive first round losses along the way if they even get out of the play in?

They will recoup a lot of what they lost if they end up trading Mitchell anyway.

I think it was the right move no matter what.

Pick and roll incoming with monk

https://youtu.be/VSW5pASwIbg?si=TJBY_gkuS3F9H6rh

Residual-Heat wrote:

Knightro wrote:

eyriq wrote:Cavs are a cautionary tale about accelerating an otherwise organic build with a high end player acquisition.

Are they actually though?

If it doesn’t work out with Mitchell and they’re forced to trade him, they’re left with… the same core group of Garland, Mobley and Allen that they started with?

Plus they’ll have whatever they get back for Mitchell, which will likely be significant.

I think it’s a trade you do 10 times out of 10 if you’re Cleveland.

If they let it grow organically, they’re probably stuck in no man’s land of being a 5-10 seed with no real chance to get out of the first round, but also not bad enough to get another impact player in the draft.

Dont forget they gave up Markannen in the trade, and he has been a 24 ppg guy in Utah. Would they really be much worse if they kept him and Sexton? You could argue Markannen was never going to break out in Cleveland, but I think eventually he wouldve. Cleveland only had Lauri for one season.

Thats not mentioning the 3 unprotected 1sts and 2 pick swaps that they gave up.

That was a lot to give up for Mitchell when you know that the Garland-Mitchell pairing might not work out. It just feels like they rushed it, especially knowing that Mitchell is a real flight risk when his contract expires.

They had Markkanen for an entire season and he averaged just 15/6.

Plus he had to play SF the whole year because they had Mobley and Allen.

They also had the Garland/Sexton pairing for several years and it never worked well.

I also want Monk, but can they afford PB, Franz, Suggs and Monk?

sk8wrulz wrote:I also want Monk, but can they afford PB, Franz, Suggs and Monk?

Yes, easily

eyriq wrote:

GelbeWand09 wrote:

eyriq wrote:"September 3, 2022: Traded Ochai Agbaji, Lauri Markkanen, Collin Sexton, a 2025 1st round draft pick, a 2026 1st round draft pick, a 2027 1st round draft pick, a 2028 1st round draft pick and a 2029 1st round draft pick to the Utah Jazz for Donovan Mitchell. Cleveland also received a trade exception 2025 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2026 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2027 1st-rd pick is CLE own 2028 1st-rd pick is a right to swap 2029 1st-rd pick is CLE own"

That's a lot of value for very little return. They went all in on a contender and now they're ready to fire their coach in the midst of an identity crisis.

Minnesota is a positive example. Everyone laughed about the Gobert trade but he was Utah's best player & the floor raiser. They added a guy to improve their weakness (Defense) & they done it without losing McDaniels, instead send a extra pick who probably will never be as good as McDaniels is unlike the Cavs losing picks & good young players to double down on small guards.
Not a perfect trade (til they win a chip) because even without McDaniels they overpaid a bit pickwise, because Goberts value was at a alltime low leaquewide, but they are a real contender now instead of a laughing stock like the last 15 years.

My question for them; is it worth moving up the championship window when Edwards is still so young and very unlikely to lead them to a chip?

What's the point of contending if you aren't really a viable contender? By the time Edwards is ready to lead them Gobert is going to be out of his prime.

Eyriq I like that you brought up the idea of a championship window a lot, just today I was thinking of the Eastern Conference and our window of opportunity. Not sure how realistic it is for Orlando but I’m thinking we are on a 4-5 year timeline.

Right now I believe it’s Boston’s time, I think Milwaukee is falling off and eventually Giannis will have to decide what to do. The Knicks are such a big market and the Mecca of basketball they are going to be an attractive place for a superstar to go the way they are playing now. For us in 4-5 years that puts Paolo, Franz at 25 & 26 years old entering their prime and we have to ask who we have now other then Suggs we can see on this team entering that window.

Earlier I threw out the name of Josh Giddey who’s still only 21 years old and in his 3rd season. At 6’8” with the ability of playing both guard positions he’s fluid enough to fit perfectly with Paolo and Franz. He’s not the elite 3 point shooter we need/want BUT I think he has room to grow on his own team away from SGA. I love JI and what he’s done this season for us, but in 4-5 years what version of Isaac will we have at 31 years old? Granted 31 isn’t old, but given his injury history and the unknown wear and tear of future seasons maybe he would be the piece we have to trade that gets us the most in return.

Hypothetical: you can get Bradley Beal in the offseason without giving up assets. Would you do it?

The Simons and Monk talk is like the past decade of Beal talk. Will be nice when he signs elsewhere so we can stop talking about it. There’s no evidence it’s even a possibility or something the FO wants.

three3d wrote:

eyriq wrote:

GelbeWand09 wrote:
Minnesota is a positive example. Everyone laughed about the Gobert trade but he was Utah's best player & the floor raiser. They added a guy to improve their weakness (Defense) & they done it without losing McDaniels, instead send a extra pick who probably will never be as good as McDaniels is unlike the Cavs losing picks & good young players to double down on small guards.
Not a perfect trade (til they win a chip) because even without McDaniels they overpaid a bit pickwise, because Goberts value was at a alltime low leaquewide, but they are a real contender now instead of a laughing stock like the last 15 years.

My question for them; is it worth moving up the championship window when Edwards is still so young and very unlikely to lead them to a chip?

What's the point of contending if you aren't really a viable contender? By the time Edwards is ready to lead them Gobert is going to be out of his prime.

Eyriq I like that you brought up the idea of a championship window a lot, just today I was thinking of the Eastern Conference and our window of opportunity. Not sure how realistic it is for Orlando but I’m thinking we are on a 4-5 year timeline.

Right now I believe it’s Boston’s time, I think Milwaukee is falling off and eventually Giannis will have to decide what to do. The Knicks are such a big market and the Mecca of basketball they are going to be an attractive place for a superstar to go the way they are playing now. For us in 4-5 years that puts Paolo, Franz at 25 & 26 years old entering their prime and we have to ask who we have now other then Suggs we can see on this team entering that window.

Earlier I threw out the name of Josh Giddey who’s still only 21 years old and in his 3rd season. At 6’8” with the ability of playing both guard positions he’s fluid enough to fit perfectly with Paolo and Franz. He’s not the elite 3 point shooter we need/want BUT I think he has room to grow on his own team away from SGA. I love JI and what he’s done this season for us, but in 4-5 years what version of Isaac will we have at 31 years old? Granted 31 isn’t old, but given his injury history and the unknown wear and tear of future seasons maybe he would be the piece we have to trade that gets us the most in return.

Yeah, I think the concept of a window timed around your core's prime years is the right one. The lead up should be focused on building a team identity and improving each season.

cedric76 wrote:

sk8wrulz wrote:I also want Monk, but can they afford PB, Franz, Suggs and Monk?

Yes, easily

I agree...but factor in $20+ for JI, if he stays healthy...his $17m is looking like a bargain now...good team, but heading into deep financial water soon. They need to make sure they get the right guy this summer, because that'll probably be it for a while.

The locked on jazz guy says this a lot and I've heard it in other places too but to build a championship contender you need the top 10 top 20 and top 50 guy. Everything else is easy to acquire.

Skybox wrote:

cedric76 wrote:

sk8wrulz wrote:I also want Monk, but can they afford PB, Franz, Suggs and Monk?

Yes, easily

I agree...but factor in $20+ for JI, if he stays healthy...his $17m is looking like a bargain now...good team, but heading into deep financial water soon. They need to make sure they get the right guy this summer, because that'll probably be it for a while.

Cap is going up so 20 M is 1/7 of the cap (within a few year it will be 1/8)

So 1/8 of monk and 1/9 on JI are a very good deal

Luxury tax will be 172 M next season and should reach 200 M soon, so as long as we don't go for a 3rd all star we LL be good

sk8wrulz wrote:I also want Monk, but can they afford PB, Franz, Suggs and Monk?

What advantage to Monk is he isn’t going to break the bank.

eyriq wrote:The locked on jazz guy says this a lot and I've heard it in other places too but to build a championship contender you need the top 10 top 20 and top 50 guy. Everything else is easy to acquire.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Suns.

RichCollab wrote:

eyriq wrote:The locked on jazz guy says this a lot and I've heard it in other places too but to build a championship contender you need the top 10 top 20 and top 50 guy. Everything else is easy to acquire.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Suns.

They don't have depth

eyriq wrote:

RichCollab wrote:

eyriq wrote:The locked on jazz guy says this a lot and I've heard it in other places too but to build a championship contender you need the top 10 top 20 and top 50 guy. Everything else is easy to acquire.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Suns.

They don't have depth

See, it’s not so easy then?

Lakers?

RichCollab wrote:

eyriq wrote:

RichCollab wrote:
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Suns.

They don't have depth

See, it’s not so easy then?

Lakers?

Also, the Suns are contenders. The Lakers just won a chip a few seasons ago. Not sure who their top 50 guy is tbh

eyriq wrote:

RichCollab wrote:

eyriq wrote:They don't have depth

See, it’s not so easy then?

Lakers?

Also, the Suns are contenders. The Lakers just won a chip a few seasons ago. Not sure who their top 50 guy is tbh

Who is top 50 for Denver?