Overarching 2024 goal, what should it be?

[Knightro]

I see Black this way:

Physically he has the size to defend 1-3 and some 4.

Offensively he has point guard/facilitation skills, and he is a reluctant scorer who’s shooting is a project.

He’s essentially our version of Draymond/Simmons/Iggy/Dyson Daniels/etc. Put them in whatever position you want and call them what you want, the way they best help on offense is passing and playmaking.

I love Black and his archetype, but his game isn’t the easiest fit to imagine with Paolo.

I agree with you.

It’s kind of obvious, but how well and how quickly Black’s 3PT shooting develops is going to pretty much determine his long-term prospects as a starter on this team.

[fendilim]

We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.

This isn’t really a thing. At least not offensively.

This whole concept of “positionless” basketball applies more defensively with switching becoming so much more prevalent.

But offensively you still have primary ball handlers, you still have catch and shoot floor spacers, you still have guys involved as the primary screeners, etc.

I think Black is versatile defensively in the sense that he can defend multiple positions. But offensively I don’t really see him as much other than an on-ball player because on the ball is where his shooting weaknesses is not as pronounced IMO.

Stick him off the ball in the corner and it’s gonna be a lot of 4 on 5 until he proves he can take and will make threes.

yes, there are still primary ball handles when we ran the 3 guard lineups last year. Just switch Fultz with Black.

Their is indeed a path for Black to get minutes beyond the 48 minutes at the point. There are other positions he can play, and he allows us to have a versatile lineup.

[pepe1991]

We also run positionless basketball, so penciling him as only able to play the PG spot is limiting his capability.

This isn’t really a thing. At least not offensively.

This whole concept of “positionless” basketball applies more defensively with switching becoming so much more prevalent.

But offensively you still have primary ball handlers, you still have catch and shoot floor spacers, you still have guys involved as the primary screeners, etc.

I think Black is versatile defensively in the sense that he can defend multiple positions. But offensively I don’t really see him as much other than an on-ball player because on the ball is where his shooting weaknesses is not as pronounced IMO.

Stick him off the ball in the corner and it’s gonna be a lot of 4 on 5 until he proves he can take and will make threes.

yes, there are still primary ball handles when we ran the 3 guard lineups last year. Just switch Fultz with Black.

Their is indeed a path for Black to get minutes beyond the 48 minutes at the point. There are other positions he can play, and he allows us to have a versatile lineup.

Problem with that is fact that if you remove Black from ball, you get Okeke/ Iwundu player.

6'6 SF who has no insticts to cut, can't spot up, probably can't beat his man off the dribble if he is defended by person of his size so by default he will spend most of the time standing like traffic cone in corner.

This is why i refered to him as out Scottie Barnes. Scottie Barnes is esencially usless if he isn't inolved in action where he touches the ball. Because without ball, he is just averaged size dude without single clear basketball skill.

[fendilim]

This isn’t really a thing. At least not offensively.

This whole concept of “positionless” basketball applies more defensively with switching becoming so much more prevalent.

But offensively you still have primary ball handlers, you still have catch and shoot floor spacers, you still have guys involved as the primary screeners, etc.

I think Black is versatile defensively in the sense that he can defend multiple positions. But offensively I don’t really see him as much other than an on-ball player because on the ball is where his shooting weaknesses is not as pronounced IMO.

Stick him off the ball in the corner and it’s gonna be a lot of 4 on 5 until he proves he can take and will make threes.

yes, there are still primary ball handles when we ran the 3 guard lineups last year. Just switch Fultz with Black.

Their is indeed a path for Black to get minutes beyond the 48 minutes at the point. There are other positions he can play, and he allows us to have a versatile lineup.

Problem with that is fact that if you remove Black from ball, you get Okeke/ Iwundu player.

6'6 SF who has no insticts to cut, can't spot up, probably can't beat his man off the dribble if he is defended by person of his size so by default he will spend most of the time standing like traffic cone in corner.

This is why i refered to him as out Scottie Barnes. Scottie Barnes is esencially usless if he isn't inolved in action where he touches the ball. Because without ball, he is just averaged size dude without single clear basketball skill.

Like I said, his minutes will come from the pg, sf and sg position. Not limited to just the pg position.

So the argument about him finding playing time is not really a problem imo. There’s a lot of minutes for him to play.

[Knightro]

yes, there are still primary ball handles when we ran the 3 guard lineups last year. Just switch Fultz with Black.

Their is indeed a path for Black to get minutes beyond the 48 minutes at the point. There are other positions he can play, and he allows us to have a versatile lineup.

Problem with that is fact that if you remove Black from ball, you get Okeke/ Iwundu player.

6'6 SF who has no insticts to cut, can't spot up, probably can't beat his man off the dribble if he is defended by person of his size so by default he will spend most of the time standing like traffic cone in corner.

This is why i refered to him as out Scottie Barnes. Scottie Barnes is esencially usless if he isn't inolved in action where he touches the ball. Because without ball, he is just averaged size dude without single clear basketball skill.

Like I said, his minutes will come from the pg, sf and sg position. Not limited to just the pg position.

So the argument about him finding playing time is not really a problem imo. There’s a lot of minutes for him to play.

In the literal sense, yes you’re right.

If the Magic want to get him on the floor, they have a variety of options at their disposal beyond him playing point guard.

But the point is, just because the Magic *can* get Black on the floor at other spots doesn’t mean that’s actually a good thing for him or for the team as a whole.

Lineups that featured Fultz/Anthony at the same time last season were absolutely terrible because neither guy is effective in an off ball role.

Black doesn’t project to be all that effective in an off ball role either because of his lack of shooting.

[eyriq]

The overarching goal for the next three seasons is to be better than Phoenix by season 3

[89Magicfan]

Thing with Black is his role. If you get him minutes that’s great but what’s his role? I’ve seen a lot of times guys are playing minutes but not a fitting role.

If he’s this Josh Giddy type of player, then you have to put the ball in his hands.

[basketballRob]

Thing with Black is his role. If you get him minutes that’s great but what’s his role? I’ve seen a lot of times guys are playing minutes but not a fitting role.

If he’s this Josh Giddy type of player, then you have to put the ball in his hands.

He probably won't have a very big role as a rookie. Giddey had a negative rating of -8.3 his rookie season. So if he's like Giddey, that's really isn't going to help us make the playoffs next season.

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[Skybox]

Thing with Black is his role. If you get him minutes that’s great but what’s his role? I’ve seen a lot of times guys are playing minutes but not a fitting role.

If he’s this Josh Giddy type of player, then you have to put the ball in his hands.

He probably won't have a very big role as a rookie. Giddey had a negative rating of -8.3 his rookie season. So if he's like Giddey, that's really isn't going to help us make the playoffs next season.

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Giddey got to play…that helped

[89Magicfan]

Thing with Black is his role. If you get him minutes that’s great but what’s his role? I’ve seen a lot of times guys are playing minutes but not a fitting role.

If he’s this Josh Giddy type of player, then you have to put the ball in his hands.

He probably won't have a very big role as a rookie. Giddey had a negative rating of -8.3 his rookie season. So if he's like Giddey, that's really isn't going to help us make the playoffs next season.

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I meant more like how is he utilized. If they play him off ball running around, it will be a epic failure.

[fendilim]

Thing with Black is his role. If you get him minutes that’s great but what’s his role? I’ve seen a lot of times guys are playing minutes but not a fitting role.

If he’s this Josh Giddy type of player, then you have to put the ball in his hands.

He probably won't have a very big role as a rookie. Giddey had a negative rating of -8.3 his rookie season. So if he's like Giddey, that's really isn't going to help us make the playoffs next season.

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I meant more like how is he utilized. If they play him off ball running around, it will be a epic failure.

Unfortunately we’re stuck with two of them. Fultz and Black.

It will really depend on who them play alongside with.

[Knightro]

It really depends on whether the goal for next season is to maximize Black's development or maximize the team's overall success.

If it's the former, then one of Fultz or Anthony needs to be traded before the season starts so Black can play pretty much 100% of his minutes offensively on the ball at PG.

If it's the latter... then unfortunately he probably shouldn't play much at all.

[Catledge]

Lineups that featured Fultz/Anthony at the same time last season were absolutely terrible because neither guy is effective in an off ball role.

Is this supported by data or are you going off of eye test?

Without looking up any stats, my general sense is that Anthony's defensive deficiencies are the bigger problem with that combo, but my general sense is frequently wrong...

[Knightro]

Is this supported by data or are you going off of eye test?

Without looking up any stats, my general sense is that Anthony's defensive deficiencies are the bigger problem with that combo, but my general sense is frequently wrong...

Data.

Fultz and Anthony as a combo had a -8.3 NET in 454 minutes played together.

Both Fultz and Anthony were both significantly better with Suggs than they were with each other.

Anthony/Suggs +3.4 NET in 550 minutes
Fultz/Suggs -1.0 NET in 349 minutes
Fultz/G. Harris -2.9 NET in 948 minutes
Fultz/Anthony -8.3 NET in 454 minutes
Anthony/G. Harris -9.0 NET in 235 minutes

[eyriq]

The Fultz net rating data is hilariously bad.

"We win when he's playing!"

"Yeah, but that net rating though..."

[Knightro]

The Fultz net rating data is hilariously bad.

"We win when he's playing!"

"Yeah, but that net rating though..."

To be completely fair to Markelle, he played 1641 of his 1778 minutes this past year with Banchero and those two were just a brutally bad pairing (-4.8 NET).

The question is... which guy was dragging the other down more?

The data would say Paolo was the one dragging Markelle SLIGHTLY more than the opposite.

Banchero's net rating data was pretty horrific if we're being candid about it.

[eyriq]

The Fultz net rating data is hilariously bad.

"We win when he's playing!"

"Yeah, but that net rating though..."

To be completely fair to Markelle, he played 1641 of his 1778 minutes this past year with Banchero and those two were just a brutally bad pairing (-4.8 NET).

The question is... which guy was dragging the other down more?

The data would say Paolo was the one dragging Markelle SLIGHTLY more than the opposite.

Banchero's net rating data was pretty horrific if we're being candid about it.

Yeah, if you hold Banchero and other frequently played together players' box score plus minus constant Fultz's plus minus is actually positive. But the challenge is the sample size, there's nothing extremely significant there.

Most likely Fultz carried water for the rook, but how much of a bump should he get? WeltPark will have to decide.

[basketballRob]

Looks like Suggs is making everyone look good. If he wasn't always injured, he'd be our top guard by a long way.

If Suggs and Isaac both play 70 games, we could make some noise.

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[eyriq]

Looks like Suggs is making everyone look good. If he wasn't always injured, he'd be our top guard by a long way.

If Suggs and Isaac both play 70 games, we could make some noise.

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Yeah, Suggs clears for sure

[basketballRob]

Franz' net rating as a rookie was -4.9, and Paolo's was -4.2. For a young rookie, that's about the best we could hope for.


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