Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 5.0

[Skybox]

He was in a limited role because he was a young rookie on a team trying to win. Cason Wallace got a bigger role as backup guard for the entire season on a teamtryingto win. He averaged 3.4 assists per 100 compared to 3.9 for Black.

Again... apples and oranges man.

The Thunder had the No. 3 ranked offense in the entire NBA. They truly didn't need Wallace to come in and do anything on offense except catch-and-shoot.

Wallace averaged just 11.9 touches per game in the front court with an average time of possession of just 0.9.

The Magic had a bad offense that severely lacked playmaking and passing, yet they couldn't get the #6 overall pick involved in any sort of playmaking whatsoever?

They opted to use him as a pure 3&D player instead of even *attempting* to see if some of his playmaking skills could positively impact the offense?

And now what are we going to see out of Black in year 2? Because if the idea is that he is going to have this fleshed out ability to make plays for others that he's been developing in secret and not go through the normal inexperienced player struggles that he *should* have gone through this year, but didn't... I dunno about all that.

There are certain skills you can develop and improve with a relentless work ethic in the summer with a trainer.

Playmaking is not one of those skills. You develop it by actually using it in real basketball games.

Fwiw, Cason Wallace has a potential assist stat of 2.5

AB has 2.8.

And AB is playing for one the worst offensive team in the league.

If you watched you’d know he wasn’t playing…not even for one of the worst offensive teams in the league

[fendilim]

Again... apples and oranges man.

The Thunder had the No. 3 ranked offense in the entire NBA. They truly didn't need Wallace to come in and do anything on offense except catch-and-shoot.

Wallace averaged just 11.9 touches per game in the front court with an average time of possession of just 0.9.

The Magic had a bad offense that severely lacked playmaking and passing, yet they couldn't get the #6 overall pick involved in any sort of playmaking whatsoever?

They opted to use him as a pure 3&D player instead of even *attempting* to see if some of his playmaking skills could positively impact the offense?

And now what are we going to see out of Black in year 2? Because if the idea is that he is going to have this fleshed out ability to make plays for others that he's been developing in secret and not go through the normal inexperienced player struggles that he *should* have gone through this year, but didn't... I dunno about all that.

There are certain skills you can develop and improve with a relentless work ethic in the summer with a trainer.

Playmaking is not one of those skills. You develop it by actually using it in real basketball games.

Fwiw, Cason Wallace has a potential assist stat of 2.5

AB has 2.8.

And AB is playing for one the worst offensive team in the league.

If you watched you’d know he wasn’t playing…not even for one of the worst offensive teams in the league

For someone who “wasn’t” playing, 2.8 potential assists isn’t really bad compared to the guy he is being compared to.

[Skybox]

Fwiw, Cason Wallace has a potential assist stat of 2.5

AB has 2.8.

And AB is playing for one the worst offensive team in the league.

If you watched you’d know he wasn’t playing…not even for one of the worst offensive teams in the league

For someone who “wasn’t” playing, 2.8 potential assists isn’t really bad compared to the guy he is being compared to.

I guess it’s all relative…I hope we don’t congratulate ourselves and “ settle” this summer

[three3d]

If you watched you’d know he wasn’t playing…not even for one of the worst offensive teams in the league

For someone who “wasn’t” playing, 2.8 potential assists isn’t really bad compared to the guy he is being compared to.

I guess it’s all relative…I hope we don’t congratulate ourselves and “ settle” this summer

I agree, we had a good season but I think it was definitely helped by other teams injuries. Can’t count on that next season at all.

[KillMonger]

Read on Twitter

[SOUL]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true. Now, whether this is a trade Magic fans are ultimately okay with, that's up to them, but this year it was the difference between play-ins and playoffs.

It's not as black and white as him replacing Fultz minutes or something, he could theoretically have done that and played a very minimal role on offense still and people would be questioning whether that is meaningful reps as a drafted "point guard". There's also a real debate of if his uncomfortability in that area played a part. It probably isn't very fun going against Suggs and Gary Harris in practice with a loose handle.

So let's take Fultz/low ceiling vets out of the equation for a minute.

Higher AB usage on-ball also means Banchero, Franz and Suggs having less responsibility and reps in certain areas as well, there is always a domino effect when it comes to usage increases and responsibility.

Then that becomes an issue of who really are the top priorities on the team, and what resources are you willing to exhaust and take away from one area to add it to another?

It's no different from having a bunch of kids and realizing that you can't go to a recital, a baseball game, and a talent show on the same night. It's very easy to say "play every young guy and prioritize all of the future on the team all at once" without any functional idea of what that entails for all of "the future" and how the slice of the pie becomes smaller.

Sometimes you have to take the smaller slice in trade-off for a bigger slice in the future once the other sized slices are established.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Because if the idea is that he is going to have this fleshed out ability to make plays for others that he's been developing in secret and not go through the normal inexperienced player struggles that he *should* have gone through this year, but didn't... I dunno about all that.

Developing in secret? He's been a point guard at every stage of his basketball playing history.

He didn't play a single minute of point guard this season in a game that mattered. That's a problem. What the guy did in high school and college is, frankly, completely irrelevant to where he's at in his NBA development.

If you actually think he's going to do anything but completely stink if they stick him on the ball and tell him to be a point guard next season, you're sadly mistaken.

To be clear, he would have also stunk had the stuck him on the ball this year, but it would have been much more likely he wouldn't have stunk this upcoming season had they just bit the bullet and gotten him the ugly developmental reps he really needed.

Instead they essentially wasted a full year of this kid's development... and for what? Cole sucked and Markelle was hurt and the offense was still terrible.

Nothing tangibly good came out of Black's rookie season.

Have a feeling they got Black and are hoping he can be Fultz but with a shot. He’s not as athletic and we haven’t seen the handles but he might have them.

There’s no way Mose was going to have Black run sets when he is trying to win games. Hopefully he has a longer leash and shows some more in Summer League.

[fendilim]

If you watched you’d know he wasn’t playing…not even for one of the worst offensive teams in the league

For someone who “wasn’t” playing, 2.8 potential assists isn’t really bad compared to the guy he is being compared to.

I guess it’s all relative…I hope we don’t congratulate ourselves and “ settle” this summer

Its not, its part of the problem. We also need to improve our fg% to convert those potential assist numbers into apg.

But to say the guy was useless on the court is simply looking at box scores. Black is indeed a “connector” piece. He has limited use on offense but is capable of making good reads, its just that the receiver of his passes aren’t able to contribute thus leading to no box score contribution.

Its different on passing the ball to SGA, its different passing the ball to Fultz.

[eyriq]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true.

The outcome of this counterfactual is unknown. Considering how bad Harris, Cole, and Fultz are, the effect of investing their reps into AB and Jett could have been positive. AB's a better defender and Jett's a better shooter than all three. I think the most likely outcome would be neutral. Cole, Fultz, and Harris are scrubs.

[basketballRob]

Ingles was doing community stuff today, and it makes me think he'll be back.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[SOUL]

The outcome of this counterfactual is unknown. Considering how bad Harris, Cole, and Fultz are, the effect of investing their reps into AB and Jett could have been positive. AB's a better defender and Jett's a better shooter than all three. I think the most likely outcome would be neutral. Cole, Fultz, and Harris are scrubs.

Again... you explicitly ignored the part where I said ignore the vets and let's talk about significant reps in terms of what they were brought here to do. That's where this debate started.

Yes, you can theoretically say that playing Black as a PG and Jett as backup SG in a perfect world means less Banchero turnovers, Franz gets put in better spots, Suggs has to exert less offense, they get everybody involved, Jett shoots 40% from three his rookie year, all of the guys settle into their roles perfectly and Jett doesn't get abused on defense, AB somehow shows dribble drive ability and aggression he didn't show all year... and we both know how far from the reality of all of that actually happening is.

History is even against that. Our actually played lineup in terms of what guys are getting minutes might even be the youngest in the league and that does not go great for 99% of teams historically record wise.

The only reality is that we won 47 games involving the vets more, for better or worse in the short-term.

[Knightro]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true. Now, whether this is a trade Magic fans are ultimately okay with, that's up to them, but this year it was the difference between play-ins and playoffs.

It's not as black and white as him replacing Fultz minutes or something, he could theoretically have done that and played a very minimal role on offense still and people would be questioning whether that is meaningful reps as a drafted "point guard". There's also a real debate of if his uncomfortability in that area played a part. It probably isn't very fun going against Suggs and Gary Harris in practice with a loose handle.

So let's take Fultz/low ceiling vets out of the equation for a minute.

Higher AB usage on-ball also means Banchero, Franz and Suggs having less responsibility and reps in certain areas as well, there is always a domino effect when it comes to usage increases and responsibility.

Then that becomes an issue of who really are the top priorities on the team, and what resources are you willing to exhaust and take away from one area to add it to another?

It's no different from having a bunch of kids and realizing that you can't go to a recital, a baseball game, and a talent show on the same night. It's very easy to say "play every young guy and prioritize all of the future on the team all at once" without any functional idea of what that entails for all of "the future" and how the slice of the pie becomes smaller.

Sometimes you have to take the smaller slice in trade-off for a bigger slice in the future once the other sized slices are established.

Of course they would have been worse playing Black on the ball this past year, SOUL. No one is suggesting otherwise.

But the problem is... now what?

Because it certainly appears that the Magic are now in a situation where Fultz and Harris are very likely going to depart, but because Black didn't get enough meaningful point guard/on-ball/whatever you want to call them reps as a rookie, it's really challenging for anybody to feel confident he can step into a bigger on-ball role without experiencing the growing pains he *should* have experienced as a rookie.

Unfortunately... the Magic won 47 games and were a 5 seed this year. Is anyone going to be ok with a backslide in terms of record or playoff seeding? Because that seems extremely on the table if Black and Jett are inserted into the rotation.

[eyriq]

The outcome of this counterfactual is unknown. Considering how bad Harris, Cole, and Fultz are, the effect of investing their reps into AB and Jett could have been positive. AB's a better defender and Jett's a better shooter than all three. I think the most likely outcome would be neutral. Cole, Fultz, and Harris are scrubs.

Again... you explicitly ignored the part where I said ignore the vets and let's talk about significant reps in terms of what they were brought here to do. That's where this debate started.

Yes, you can theoretically say that playing Black as a PG and Jett as backup SG in a perfect world means less Banchero turnovers, Franz gets put in better spots, Suggs has to exert less offense, they get everybody involved, Jett shoots 40% from three his rookie year, all of the guys settle into their roles perfectly and Jett doesn't get abused on defense, AB somehow shows dribble drive ability and aggression he didn't show all year... and we both know how far from the reality of all of that actually happening is.

History is even against that. Our actually played lineup in terms of what guys are getting minutes might even be the youngest in the league and that does not go great for 99% of teams historically record wise.

The only reality is that we won 47 games involving the vets more, for better or worse in the short-term.

I couldn't quote the rest because you were cooking and I am in the mood to push my favorite agenda

[KillMonger]

Unless some disgruntled star forces his way here then i believe Weltman wants to prove that he didn't strike out on 2 lotto picks....so if they're still here then it's smart to assume their role will be upgraded

[fendilim]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true.

The outcome of this counterfactual is unknown. Considering how bad Harris, Cole, and Fultz are, the effect of investing their reps into AB and Jett could have been positive. AB's a better defender and Jett's a better shooter than all three. I think the most likely outcome would be neutral. Cole, Fultz, and Harris are scrubs.

i do agree that the outcome is unknown in this scenario, but with the goalpost getting moved further and further, the team did a great job, imo, on playing it safe instead and trusting the vets and see where it leads us to.

[eyriq]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true.

The outcome of this counterfactual is unknown. Considering how bad Harris, Cole, and Fultz are, the effect of investing their reps into AB and Jett could have been positive. AB's a better defender and Jett's a better shooter than all three. I think the most likely outcome would be neutral. Cole, Fultz, and Harris are scrubs.

i do agree that the outcome is unknown in this scenario, but with the goalpost getting moved further and further, the team did a great job, imo, on playing it safe instead and trusting the vets and see where it leads us to.

What's done is done and they've earned my trust. I think the below is spot on.

Unless some disgruntled star forces his way here then i believe Weltman wants to prove that he didn't strike out on 2 lotto picks....so if they're still here then it's smart to assume their role will be upgraded

[fendilim]

There's a fallacious notion that we could develop AB (and Jett) and also win the same amount when it's not true. Now, whether this is a trade Magic fans are ultimately okay with, that's up to them, but this year it was the difference between play-ins and playoffs.

It's not as black and white as him replacing Fultz minutes or something, he could theoretically have done that and played a very minimal role on offense still and people would be questioning whether that is meaningful reps as a drafted "point guard". There's also a real debate of if his uncomfortability in that area played a part. It probably isn't very fun going against Suggs and Gary Harris in practice with a loose handle.

So let's take Fultz/low ceiling vets out of the equation for a minute.

Higher AB usage on-ball also means Banchero, Franz and Suggs having less responsibility and reps in certain areas as well, there is always a domino effect when it comes to usage increases and responsibility.

Then that becomes an issue of who really are the top priorities on the team, and what resources are you willing to exhaust and take away from one area to add it to another?

It's no different from having a bunch of kids and realizing that you can't go to a recital, a baseball game, and a talent show on the same night. It's very easy to say "play every young guy and prioritize all of the future on the team all at once" without any functional idea of what that entails for all of "the future" and how the slice of the pie becomes smaller.

Sometimes you have to take the smaller slice in trade-off for a bigger slice in the future once the other sized slices are established.

Of course they would have been worse playing Black on the ball this past year, SOUL. No one is suggesting otherwise.

But the problem is... now what?

Because it certainly appears that the Magic are now in a situation where Fultz and Harris are very likely going to depart, but because Black didn't get enough meaningful point guard/on-ball/whatever you want to call them reps as a rookie, it's really challenging for anybody to feel confident he can step into a bigger on-ball role without experiencing the growing pains he *should* have experienced as a rookie.

Unfortunately... the Magic won 47 games and were a 5 seed this year. Is anyone going to be ok with a backslide in terms of record or playoff seeding? Because that seems extremely on the table if Black and Jett are inserted into the rotation.

Now what? The season also became even a better learning opportunity.

This season became a learning experience for the more important guys - Suggs, Franz and Paolo.

Its possible that we regress as a team because, honestly, we overachieved. But that only happens if our core guys didn’t improve, which is unlikely, imo, after seeing the things they have to improve on.

[SOUL]

Unfortunately... the Magic won 47 games and were a 5 seed this year. Is anyone going to be ok with a backslide in terms of record or playoff seeding? Because that seems extremely on the table if Black and Jett are inserted into the rotation.

I actually agree with this part, depending on who we bring in, the integration of those two (if kept) and being healthier with injuries this year and benefiting from other teams being injured could put us in a Kings sort of situation where we also have internal improvement and are better in certain areas, but maybe the win column doesn't show that. But maybe we push our chips in more than people think.

I will push back on one thing though.

I don't think that's how things work in terms of development at all. Whatever the hell the Spurs did with Jeremy Sochan isn't a net positive experience... he's simply just not going to get that sort of on-ball reps again as a point guard ever. He didn't gain a +2 stat attribute where he's going to be used as Draymond because of this year. That **** looked awful.

Chet didn't stumble out of the gates because he lost important reps his rookie year and missed out on baptism by fire. Simply being in NBA facilities and getting used to the schedule and grind required to upkeep your body surely helped, but nothing about the lack of anything on court worked against him this year.

Same works for Anthony Black, because this isn't 2004, and we're not in a league where a point guard dominates possessions Steve Nash or Chris Paul style, he's going to share a piece of the responsibility with two 6'10 forwards that present on-ball mismatches.

Whether it's substantial, Oladipo and Suggs level devotion to running the offense through them sort of reps here, or simply just "wanting him involved more", the former is a direct threat to on court performance and record, and the latter has no empirical data that it would make him 5% better next year just because he's touching the ball more.

Again, strictly talking about on-ball work for AB and his ability to function as a point guard in the league, not his defense, not his headiness, his improved three pointer.

I think working with coaches, sparring in practice with our defenders, working on moves in the offseason, learning to channel his aggression, gaining strength and agility by doing specific workouts and exercises, having private workouts with teammates and trainers all add way more seasoning to whatever stock he had boiling than involving him slightly more.

Because again, I would agree more if we're talking about Oladipo level devotion to AB as a lead guard, but that flips the entire process of the team for a season, no matter what the results are, and we usually know how those results go. What you're realistically arguing is just him being involved a little bit more, which I think is an extremely moot point when it comes to how he plays next year if his role was increased.

[RookieStar]

Any of you wants to go the trade and transaction board? There is an interesting discussion there..

Cade Ausar Sarr(???)
For
Franz Black #18

Franz is a winner and Ausar can not even crack the rotation in the worst team in the league. Also this is a weak draft.

Ausar can’t throw a ball in the ocean but he was doing some incredible stuff defensively…like a mini Isaac all over the place

True... was it him or his twin that was sometimes being played as the C in apot minutes?

[Skybox]

For someone who “wasn’t” playing, 2.8 potential assists isn’t really bad compared to the guy he is being compared to.

I guess it’s all relative…I hope we don’t congratulate ourselves and “ settle” this summer

Its not, its part of the problem. We also need to improve our fg% to convert those potential assist numbers into apg.

But to say the guy was useless on the court is simply looking at box scores. Black is indeed a “connector” piece. He has limited use on offense but is capable of making good reads, its just that the receiver of his passes aren’t able to contribute thus leading to no box score contribution.

Its different on passing the ball to SGA, its different passing the ball to Fultz.

I wonder what his overall DNP/assist ratio was