Orlando Magic Playoff EPM

[drsd]

Bottom line is that when we needed someone to stop Mitchell and we had the best defending Guard in the NBA according to metrics, our entire team still couldn't stop him when we needed to. Why? Because we need defense where defense matters most. IN THE POST.

The game plan for all seven games was to take all Cavs off of the three point line, and then guard only four inside the box. That is, the Magic just accepted that Mitchell would score at will inside.

And frankly, it was a brilliant defensive strategy. It worked: in all seven games.
Orlando lost this series because the team can't shoot. Not because "Mitchell wasn't guarded".

[Skin]

Bottom line is that when we needed someone to stop Mitchell and we had the best defending Guard in the NBA according to metrics, our entire team still couldn't stop him when we needed to. Why? Because we need defense where defense matters most. IN THE POST.

The game plan for all seven games was to take all Cavs off of the three point line, and then guard only four inside the box. That is, the Magic just accepted that Mitchell would score at will inside.

And frankly, it was a brilliant defensive strategy. It worked: in all seven games.
Orlando lost this series because the team can't shoot. Not because "Mitchell wasn't guarded".

I agree that it was our offense that let us down. That's exactly why I said I was happier with Suggs in Game 6 because of his offensive output.

Suggs gets adored over here because of his defense and it's a "nice to have" not a "need to have". What we "need to have" is him scoring consistently. As bad as Franz gets nailed because of his 1-15, 0 TO game 7, nobody is talking about Suggs' horrible 2-13, 5 TO game. Why is that being swept under the rug?

[SOUL]

The based move is to not be too critical of any of the three guys who were net positives and part of our young core. This was their first playoffs, which we all said was needed for this group for the experience alone. What do you guys think that experience entails? Sunshine and roses and a finals appearance?

Banchero had massive amounts of turnovers, Franz struggled badly in a few games including a game 7, Suggs had shooting stinkers on the road. Guess what? Guys like Doncic, Embiid, Paul George, etc also struggled in their first round. A lot of things happen in a 4-7 game sample size.

Right now it just seems like a pissing match between fans who tend to be more critical of one player more than others during the season. Happened all year with some people harping on Suggs more, some harping on Franz more, some harping on Paolo more.

[pepe1991]

Suggs had a 6.8 net rating.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630591?SeasonType=Playoffs

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Irrelevant, Fultz had like +14 net rating. Given we had 2 lobsided wins, all Cavs players ended up with negative net rating and all Magic players ended up in positive. But Magic lost series.

[Skin]

The based move is to not be too critical of any of the three guys who were net positives and part of our young core. This was their first playoffs, which we all said was needed for this group for the experience alone. What do you guys think that experience entails? Sunshine and roses and a finals appearance?

Banchero had massive amounts of turnovers, Franz struggled badly in a few games including a game 7, Suggs had shooting stinkers on the road. Guess what? Guys like Doncic, Embiid, Paul George, etc also struggled in their first round. A lot of things happen in a 4-7 game sample size.

Right now it just seems like a pissing match between fans who tend to be more critical of one player more than others during the season. Happened all year with some people harping on Suggs more, some harping on Franz more, some harping on Paolo more.

So as a moderator, what did you think of the post I reported?

[SOUL]

So as a moderator, what did you think of the post I reported?

I'm retiring in the next few days, do what you gotta do bro ... looks like a normal snippy back and forth to me if y'all wanna have that as long as it sticks to basketball in between "NO UR DUMBS"

[Skin]

So as a moderator, what did you think of the post I reported?

I'm retiring in the next few days, do what you gotta do bro ... looks like a normal snippy back and forth to me if y'all wanna have that as long as it sticks to basketball in between "NO UR DUMBS"

Didn't realize that. You were a good mod, what's the story behind hanging them up?

[SOUL]

Didn't realize that. You were a good mod, what's the story behind hanging them up?

*salute*

I originally retired in like 2019 and came back for a playoff series and never re-retired.. need a break as things are getting busier irl lol. May help out again in the future but for the short term (2 years), gonna enjoy some games without being as active on the forums, so just trying to enjoy it without feeling any obligations of sorts!

[MagicMatic]

The based move is to not be too critical of any of the three guys who were net positives and part of our young core. This was their first playoffs, which we all said was needed for this group for the experience alone. What do you guys think that experience entails? Sunshine and roses and a finals appearance?

Banchero had massive amounts of turnovers, Franz struggled badly in a few games including a game 7, Suggs had shooting stinkers on the road. Guess what? Guys like Doncic, Embiid, Paul George, etc also struggled in their first round. A lot of things happen in a 4-7 game sample size.

Right now it just seems like a pissing match between fans who tend to be more critical of one player more than others during the season. Happened all year with some people harping on Suggs more, some harping on Franz more, some harping on Paolo more.

Yeah pretty much.

Nobody is taking age and growth into account. The only drawback we have actually seen between the 3 guys that people could MAYBE get critical about is Franz shooting numbers this season. Even then, there are so many other players on this roster that just aren’t good enough. Guys that aren’t making rookie money and have been on multiple teams on multiple contracts.

[JoshuaPotter]

Nobody is taking age and growth into account. The only drawback we have actually seen between the 3 guys that people could MAYBE get critical about is Franz shooting numbers this season. Even then, there are so many other players on this roster that just aren’t good enough. Guys that aren’t making rookie money and have been on multiple teams on multiple contracts.

I'm taking age and rookie contracts into account.

Your big 3 exploded in the 1st round in a way that if it went any better we would be in the second round. Humble opinion, Suggs or Franz get hot I think we win game 7. 1 - 2 choices from game 5, we are also in the second round.

The rest of the team imploded offensively.

I'm still upset about Franz laying a game 7 egg, and yes to an extent Suggs too. But we aren't talking about near max money for Suggs.

I can name a 4th player that has tons of room for growth, could have given us good defense that we saw here and yeah, still tanked us offensively to the same outcome of a first round exit. But now with his playoff instincts sharpened.

The defense was spectacular. Yes even on Mitchell. I don't get the complaining. For as much offensive negative and red that I saw that defensive numbers were a pure joy.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Ingles: −2.5 Offensive EPM, −1.1 Defensive EPM, −3.5 Total EPM
Cole: −4.3 Offensive EPM, +0.4 Defensive EPM, −3.9 Total EPM

these two stick out to me the most. Ingles was brought in to score and somewhat run a 2nd unit. Cole was given an extension on the fact that he could be a bench microwave. Neither had any positives in the playoffs and honestly, both could easily be replaced by players with more room for growth.

[basketballRob]

Ingles: −2.5 Offensive EPM, −1.1 Defensive EPM, −3.5 Total EPM
Cole: −4.3 Offensive EPM, +0.4 Defensive EPM, −3.9 Total EPM

these two stick out to me the most. Ingles was brought in to score and somewhat run a 2nd unit. Cole was given an extension on the fact that he could be a bench microwave. Neither had any positives in the playoffs and honestly, both could easily be replaced by players with more room for growth.

Both of them benefit from being on a good defensive team. If they were on a team like Portland this season, their defensive EPM might have looked like Simons.

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[p0peye]

The Boys (Suggs, Paolo, and Franz) clear. Love to see this.

Devastated that JI failed to scale and withered under the bright lights.

WCJ cemented his status as a deck chair.

The bench sucking makes it even easier to clear a path for AB and Jett.

Edit: also, Harris is not a playoff rotation player and the narrative we missed him was garbage and I'm glad this supports that.

Let JI get a season at full speed.

Oh, is that the one known as the season Earth stopped spinning? Can't wait.

[MagicMatic]

JI gets more passes from this fan base than any other player in history aside from maybe Fultz.

[RichCollab]

JI gets more passes from this fan base than any other player in history aside from maybe Fultz.

I agree. Let’s cut him now and save that 17 million.

[basketballRob]

JI gets more passes from this fan base than any other player in history aside from maybe Fultz.

I agree. Let’s cut him now and save that 17 million.

You still have to pay him $9.2m. He was also one of our better players this season.

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[MagicMatic]

JI gets more passes from this fan base than any other player in history aside from maybe Fultz.

I agree. Let’s cut him now and save that 17 million.

Why not trade him?

He plays the same exact position as our major cornerstone. He can only be on the floor for 8min stretches and at most 16mpg. Is Orlando getting the most value out of him now?

People like the idea of Isaac more than what he actually provides relative to his trade value.

[SOUL]

JI gets more passes from this fan base than any other player in history aside from maybe Fultz.

I agree. Let’s cut him now and save that 17 million.

Why not trade him?

He plays the same exact position as our major cornerstone. He can only be on the floor for 8min stretches and at most 16mpg. Is Orlando getting the most value out of him now?

People like the idea of Isaac more than what he actually provides relative to his trade value.

Eh, I kinda disagree.

If he''s a hindrance to a major piece coming because of his salary or he's a specific barrier to whatever, I wouldn't mind trading or cutting, otherwise he's exactly what you'd want off of the bench for a big. An uber talented, switchable defender whose presence, advanced numbers and positive W-L reflected in games that he played.

He struggled in the playoffs kinda majorly and was still had the 4th best advanced numbers after Paolo, Suggs and Franz.

[eyriq]

I agree. Let’s cut him now and save that 17 million.

Why not trade him?

He plays the same exact position as our major cornerstone. He can only be on the floor for 8min stretches and at most 16mpg. Is Orlando getting the most value out of him now?

People like the idea of Isaac more than what he actually provides relative to his trade value.

Eh, I kinda disagree.

If he''s a hindrance to a major piece coming because of his salary or he's a specific barrier to whatever, I wouldn't mind trading or cutting, otherwise he's exactly what you'd want off of the bench for a big. An uber talented, switchable defender whose presence, advanced numbers and positive W-L reflected in games that he played.

He struggled in the playoffs kinda majorly and was still had the 4th best advanced numbers after Paolo, Suggs and Franz.

I agree with magicmatic. I'd test the trade market. If you can get a starter value, go for it.

[byeganyo]

Ingles: −2.5 Offensive EPM, −1.1 Defensive EPM, −3.5 Total EPM
Cole: −4.3 Offensive EPM, +0.4 Defensive EPM, −3.9 Total EPM

these two stick out to me the most. Ingles was brought in to score and somewhat run a 2nd unit. Cole was given an extension on the fact that he could be a bench microwave. Neither had any positives in the playoffs and honestly, both could easily be replaced by players with more room for growth.

Both of them benefit from being on a good defensive team. If they were on a team like Portland this season, their defensive EPM might have looked like Simons.

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Ingles played 64 minutes, had 12 assists and 0 TOs.
Rest of the team had 123 assists and 97 TOs. AST/TO ratio of 1.26
Ingles had roughly an assist every 5 minutes. Franz who lead the team in APG had an asist every 8,4 minutes.
So Ingles kinda run the second unit - he didnt shoot well enough and his defense was well at the expected level so he didnt played more.