2023-2024 Regular Season Game 68: Toronto Raptors (23-44) at Orlando Magic (39-28) - 6pm

[JoshuaPotter]

We're 17-5 in our last 22, but it feels like we're struggling.

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I think its because we still having big roster holes and are just winning in spite of a lot of us refusing to believe that defense is our new identity and that somehow the rebuild isn't going according to our plan. Therefore, we MUST be terrible.

We also do not have a 17-5 start. Which totally blinds us when we look up and see 44-28, as if that is demonstrably worse.

I still remember Dec / Jan when we fielded a starting lineup of Okeke and Houstan. I was there. Yikes. Those were hard months. Against tough teams too. I think some posters are still reeling from that.

[RichCollab]

OKC won 40 games last season. We are doing good to great.

[RookieStar]

We're 17-5 in our last 22, but it feels like we're struggling.

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I think its because we still having big roster holes and are just winning in spite of a lot of us refusing to believe that defense is our new identity and that somehow the rebuild isn't going according to our plan. Therefore, we MUST be terrible.

We also do not have a 17-5 start. Which totally blinds us when we look up and see 44-28, as if that is demonstrably worse.

I still remember Dec / Jan when we fielded a starting lineup of Okeke and Houstan. I was there. Yikes. Those were hard months. Against tough teams too. I think some posters are still reeling from that.

Naaah.. my take on this is that its because we do not properly take care of business.

Example : the last 2 RAPS games.. we should have steamrollered and kept at least a 10pt lead after the 5mins mark in the 1st quarter. However, we were still fighting tooth and nail till the 3rd quarter. If that was a team like BOS/MIL, their version of Okeke, JEtt and Admiral would have been playing near the end of the 2nd quarter already.

So we are a young team and whether we face a championship contender or the leading #1 draft pick winner, we kinda play to their level.

[RookieStar]

OKC won 40 games last season. We are doing good to great.

Yeah.. but what made OKC even more dangerous last year was that even though they already won 40, they had the runner up ROY playing good AND a #1 pick contender in Chet ready to suit up next season to look forward to.

What we have to look forward to is just the continuing improvement on our current younglings as well as the hope that we can get someone on FA

[KillMonger]

this game showed me how much rim protection is important....we had toronto bench players just driving to the rim with no fear...got to look into solving that problem next season

What rank does our defense need to be before you let go of needing more rim protection?

It's not just rim protection either, you got to have someone there that at least puts some fear in the minds of whoever is driving to the paint... Then there is rebounding, your starting center should be baseline 10 boards a game....dell falls short in both of those areas in my eyes.... He's fine with paint protection but there are rim protection and rebounding issues.....i need more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game from my starting center

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[SOUL]

Of course we take care of business. Fans just think teams blow teams out from the beginning and have zero issue lol. No teams are regularly doing that besides the truly elite teams with a lot of veterans and offensive firepower.. we do not have that.

[RichCollab]

this game showed me how much rim protection is important....we had toronto bench players just driving to the rim with no fear...got to look into solving that problem next season

What rank does our defense need to be before you let go of needing more rim protection?

It's not just rim protection either, you got to have someone there that at least puts some fear in the minds of whoever is driving to the paint... Then there is rebounding, your starting center should be baseline 10 boards a game....dell falls short in both of those areas in my eyes.... He's fine with paint protection but there are rim protection and rebounding issues.....i need more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game from my starting center

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WCJ use to do that before Franz and Paolo started to rebound. WCJ use to be the only one who rebounded.

WCJ fits well with starting lineup at the moment. Address the guard spot and maybe I would be open to a defensive minded center. Doing it before wouldn’t make sense. Why downgrade offense and shooting? Both of those are weak points.

[MagicMatic]

What rank does our defense need to be before you let go of needing more rim protection?

It's not just rim protection either, you got to have someone there that at least puts some fear in the minds of whoever is driving to the paint... Then there is rebounding, your starting center should be baseline 10 boards a game....dell falls short in both of those areas in my eyes.... He's fine with paint protection but there are rim protection and rebounding issues.....i need more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game from my starting center

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WCJ use to do that before Franz and Paolo started to rebound. WCJ use to be the only one who rebounded.

WCJ fits well with starting lineup at the moment. Address the guard spot and maybe I would be open to a defensive minded center. Doing it before wouldn’t make sense. Why downgrade offense and shooting? Both of those are weak points.

Problem is that you have to give something up to get something and the free agent list doesn’t really help.

Carter gives us the best return as an asset that Orlando could let go should they want to just pay Goga instead or draft a Center.

[SOUL]

Goga just isn't the long-term answer. I don't care about the 9 game win streak. He's a solid bench big though.

What do you do when you have Mitch Robinson or Gobert or any rim protector at center when you're a team that's lifeblood is getting inside? You either have to play Paolo at 5 and start playing smaller which we aren't great at, or you pull them away. Wendell at least shoots 40% from three.

The issue is, it's damn hard to find a player that can stretch the floor, be a rim protector and rebound well. Isaac is probably the closest thing to that and he still has injury concerns and not much experience playing center, but maybe that's who ultimately needs to be our center.

[RichCollab]

It's not just rim protection either, you got to have someone there that at least puts some fear in the minds of whoever is driving to the paint... Then there is rebounding, your starting center should be baseline 10 boards a game....dell falls short in both of those areas in my eyes.... He's fine with paint protection but there are rim protection and rebounding issues.....i need more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game from my starting center

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

WCJ use to do that before Franz and Paolo started to rebound. WCJ use to be the only one who rebounded.

WCJ fits well with starting lineup at the moment. Address the guard spot and maybe I would be open to a defensive minded center. Doing it before wouldn’t make sense. Why downgrade offense and shooting? Both of those are weak points.

Problem is that you have to give something up to get something and the free agent list doesn’t really help.

Carter gives us the best return as an asset that Orlando could let go should they want to just pay Goga instead or draft a Center.

Sign a free agent and give up nothing.

I’m not a 100% against trading WCJ but guard needs to be pretty special.

[basketballRob]

I prefer a center that can dunk.

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[ORLMagicGirl15]

We're 17-5 in our last 22, but it feels like we're struggling.

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That's probably because we've been struggling against playoff teams as of late.

[RookieStar]

Goga just isn't the long-term answer. I don't care about the 9 game win streak. He's a solid bench big though.

What do you do when you have Mitch Robinson or Gobert or any rim protector at center when you're a team that's lifeblood is getting inside? You either have to play Paolo at 5 and start playing smaller which we aren't great at, or you pull them away. Wendell at least shoots 40% from three.

The issue is, it's damn hard to find a player that can stretch the floor, be a rim protector and rebound well. Isaac is probably the closest thing to that and he still has injury concerns and not much experience playing center, but maybe that's who ultimately needs to be our center.

Been thinking about that since last year....

Myles Turner
JJJr

Are the 2 that comes to mind. Sadly... they wont get traded..

[KillMonger]

What rank does our defense need to be before you let go of needing more rim protection?

It's not just rim protection either, you got to have someone there that at least puts some fear in the minds of whoever is driving to the paint... Then there is rebounding, your starting center should be baseline 10 boards a game....dell falls short in both of those areas in my eyes.... He's fine with paint protection but there are rim protection and rebounding issues.....i need more than 7 or 8 rebounds a game from my starting center

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

WCJ use to do that before Franz and Paolo started to rebound. WCJ use to be the only one who rebounded.

WCJ fits well with starting lineup at the moment. Address the guard spot and maybe I would be open to a defensive minded center. Doing it before wouldn’t make sense. Why downgrade offense and shooting? Both of those are weak points.

They do it now because we have to, but what happened to Franz and paolo getting fast break points? I remember we used to get them running more in the past but now they're crashing the glass... If we had a more dominant rebounder that wouldn't be an issue... I'm not saying Dell isn't a good player but he is what he is.... He's a power forward playing out of position.....

he spreads the floor a bit, when he isn't pump faking... But we need the center to be a center and often times Dell isn't giving us that.... The absolute worst thing about Dell that I'm not sure why I'm seeing from a 5+ year veteran is his inconsistent motor.... If Dell isn't playing well offensively, he's lethargic everywhere else.....on defense....on the glass.... Why is he letting his offense dictate his effort on d? That shouldn't be happening, it's unacceptable from a vet like him.

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[Bensational]

Goga just isn't the long-term answer. I don't care about the 9 game win streak. He's a solid bench big though.

What do you do when you have Mitch Robinson or Gobert or any rim protector at center when you're a team that's lifeblood is getting inside? You either have to play Paolo at 5 and start playing smaller which we aren't great at, or you pull them away. Wendell at least shoots 40% from three.

The issue is, it's damn hard to find a player that can stretch the floor, be a rim protector and rebound well. Isaac is probably the closest thing to that and he still has injury concerns and not much experience playing center, but maybe that's who ultimately needs to be our center.

I don’t think we need a floor stretching C for our offense to work, but our C’s probably need to be solid lob threats and offensive rebounders and our drivers need to be better at getting them the ball if they draw a crowd of defenders. And if the paint is packed we just kick it out to an open shooter.

There aren’t many C’s who will stretch the floor and be rim protectors. At least a straight defensive C will amplify one of our current strengths. Realistically there aren’t many big upgrades over WCJ, especially with his contract factored in. But we should probably be a bit more judicial with his minutes and matchups.

[SOUL]

I don’t think we need a floor stretching C for our offense to work, but our C’s probably need to be solid lob threats and offensive rebounders and our drivers need to be better at getting them the ball if they draw a crowd of defenders. And if the paint is packed we just kick it out to an open shooter.

There aren’t many C’s who will stretch the floor and be rim protectors. At least a straight defensive C will amplify one of our current strengths. Realistically there aren’t many big upgrades over WCJ, especially with his contract factored in. But we should probably be a bit more judicial with his minutes and matchups.

I agree with the 2nd part, sometimes he just looks outmatched, but in the modern NBA where teams can get switched so easily, he is a way better option than Goga there when teams are forcing switches. Goga is a great paint protector, and looks terrible when he has to go outside of the paint on defense. WCJ doesn't look great at times, but does a better job there since he can move quicker, and Isaac is obviously the best at both.

I vehemently disagree with the first part though. We've seen a lot of data how Paolo/Franz look when the offense is clogged because the other team isn't respecting anybody else. It works fine right now because WCJ/Gary/Suggs can all stretch the floor. If people want to replace Gary/WCJ with Black/Goga or Black/Claxton, you're going to see a world of issues arise. Black is still way better than I thought from threes, but not respected there yet and not a volume guy.

My ideal is basically Isaac just plays 30 minutes in the future tbh.

[The-Stallion70]

I prefer a center that can dunk.

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Not Jokic then

[Bensational]

I don’t think we need a floor stretching C for our offense to work, but our C’s probably need to be solid lob threats and offensive rebounders and our drivers need to be better at getting them the ball if they draw a crowd of defenders. And if the paint is packed we just kick it out to an open shooter.

I vehemently disagree with the first part though. We've seen a lot of data how Paolo/Franz look when the offense is clogged because the other team isn't respecting anybody else. It works fine right now because WCJ/Gary/Suggs can all stretch the floor. If people want to replace Gary/WCJ with Black/Goga or Black/Claxton, you're going to see a world of issues arise. Black is still way better than I thought from threes, but not respected there yet and not a volume guy.

My ideal is basically Isaac just plays 30 minutes in the future tbh.

If the paint is packed then the shooters aren’t there to space the floor, they’re there to punish the defense by hitting open shots. We just need to get better at getting the ball to them in time, and not having so many of those opportunities turn into guys putting the ball back on the floor and driving back into the paint. But if they’re successfully spacing the floor, then the paint won’t be packed.

The data is also a lot more supportive of Goga, and Goga/Black, than you seem to be aware of. Goga/Black with Paolo/Franz/Suggs has a better ortg, drtg and netrtg than WCJ/Fultz. And while WCJ/Harris have had fantastic advanced stats and lineup ratings of ortg 117.3, drtg 97.7, netrtg 19.6, lineups with Goga/Harris were ortg 127.5, drtg 108.5, netrtg 19.1 (albeit on a small sample size). So counter intuitively, we score more with Goga on the court than we do with WCJ, but we’re better defensively with WCJ.

The margins between WCJ and Goga really aren’t that big, and within a season they could be completely negated. I think Goga will be more of a factor to the team than people are expecting.

[KillMonger]

I don’t think we need a floor stretching C for our offense to work, but our C’s probably need to be solid lob threats and offensive rebounders and our drivers need to be better at getting them the ball if they draw a crowd of defenders. And if the paint is packed we just kick it out to an open shooter.

I vehemently disagree with the first part though. We've seen a lot of data how Paolo/Franz look when the offense is clogged because the other team isn't respecting anybody else. It works fine right now because WCJ/Gary/Suggs can all stretch the floor. If people want to replace Gary/WCJ with Black/Goga or Black/Claxton, you're going to see a world of issues arise. Black is still way better than I thought from threes, but not respected there yet and not a volume guy.

My ideal is basically Isaac just plays 30 minutes in the future tbh.

If the paint is packed then the shooters aren’t there to space the floor, they’re there to punish the defense by hitting open shots. We just need to get better at getting the ball to them in time, and not having so many of those opportunities turn into guys putting the ball back on the floor and driving back into the paint. But if they’re successfully spacing the floor, then the paint won’t be packed.

The data is also a lot more supportive of Goga, and Goga/Black, than you seem to be aware of. Goga/Black with Paolo/Franz/Suggs has a better ortg, drtg and netrtg than WCJ/Fultz. And while WCJ/Harris have had fantastic advanced stats and lineup ratings of ortg 117.3, drtg 97.7, netrtg 19.6, lineups with Goga/Harris were ortg 127.5, drtg 108.5, netrtg 19.1 (albeit on a small sample size). So counter intuitively, we score more with Goga on the court than we do with WCJ, but we’re better defensively with WCJ.

The margins between WCJ and Goga really aren’t that big, and within a season they could be completely negated. I think Goga will be more of a factor to the team than people are expecting.

That is if goga is brought back

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[eyriq]

I don’t think we need a floor stretching C for our offense to work, but our C’s probably need to be solid lob threats and offensive rebounders and our drivers need to be better at getting them the ball if they draw a crowd of defenders. And if the paint is packed we just kick it out to an open shooter.

I vehemently disagree with the first part though. We've seen a lot of data how Paolo/Franz look when the offense is clogged because the other team isn't respecting anybody else. It works fine right now because WCJ/Gary/Suggs can all stretch the floor. If people want to replace Gary/WCJ with Black/Goga or Black/Claxton, you're going to see a world of issues arise. Black is still way better than I thought from threes, but not respected there yet and not a volume guy.

My ideal is basically Isaac just plays 30 minutes in the future tbh.

If the paint is packed then the shooters aren’t there to space the floor, they’re there to punish the defense by hitting open shots. We just need to get better at getting the ball to them in time, and not having so many of those opportunities turn into guys putting the ball back on the floor and driving back into the paint. But if they’re successfully spacing the floor, then the paint won’t be packed.

The data is also a lot more supportive of Goga, and Goga/Black, than you seem to be aware of. Goga/Black with Paolo/Franz/Suggs has a better ortg, drtg and netrtg than WCJ/Fultz. And while WCJ/Harris have had fantastic advanced stats and lineup ratings of ortg 117.3, drtg 97.7, netrtg 19.6, lineups with Goga/Harris were ortg 127.5, drtg 108.5, netrtg 19.1 (albeit on a small sample size). So counter intuitively, we score more with Goga on the court than we do with WCJ, but we’re better defensively with WCJ.

The margins between WCJ and Goga really aren’t that big, and within a season they could be completely negated. I think Goga will be more of a factor to the team than people are expecting.

Yeah, lineups have tended to do better with Goga than WCJ and there isn't much room for doubt.