2023-2024 Regular Season Game 77: Orlando Magic (45-31) at Charlotte Hornets (18-58) - 7pm

[pepe1991]

Hornets fans will hate Clifford when they get the 6th pick instead of a top 3.

We saw the good the other night when Wendell could switch off on Zion. We saw the bad last night when Wendell couldn't take advantage of the Hornets starting a 6'6 "center. Vuc would've been no help against Zion, but would've scored 30 pts last night.

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They are tied for 3rd worst record, Wizards & Pistons have historically bad years. Pistons already are on wrong side of history with longest losing streak.

And Miller is running offense. I don't know what's there to complain about Clifford.

[eyriq]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point.

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

The team has the #2 defense in the league. This didn't happen by accident. They've drafted and traded for players that are plus defenders, and they've focused coaching and player development on establishing a defensive identity. How do you get the #2 defense without intentionally constructing a good defensive team?

[tiderulz]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all outside of draft selections.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point. I mean what are you arguing here? That signing Joe Ingles equals “construction”?

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

Isaac is playing 15 mpg, and is out every 4-5 games. I dont think he could physically handle starting. Now maybe his minutes go up in the post season and with another summer to strengthen up he can play more. But he has been historically brittle here.

[pepe1991]

Isaac's playing time in regular season will be telling.

[byeganyo]

I would say if a team ranks 23rd in offense, they have a poorly built roster offensively.

Now if the argument back is that the two main guys are just young and we need to wait them out, I’m not against that, but the Magic could have supplemented the roster with better complimentary pieces and didn’t do it.

23rd best offense is a function of being young, not poorly built. You explained it

That's only true to a certain extent though.

The front office had tons of cap space this summer and could have upgraded the Fultz, Harris, Anthony, Ingles spots. They could have made a trade deadline acquisition.

There were a large number of things they could have done on the margins that would have helped and they chose to do none of them.

To be fair Cole was coming from his supposed breakthrough season and everyone was happy for his "cheap" extension.
Ingles alos was signed this same summer and he is leading the team in 3pt%, assists per 100 pos and assist/turnover ratio.
Im pretty certain that if we take Ingles minutes away the offense without him is the worst in NBA bar none.

Once it became obvious Fultz has gone backwards instead of forwards something should have been done, but i dont think that in the summer was so clear who should we get and who - cut.

[The-Stallion70]

You can be a young team and have a decent offense, there are plenty of examples of this. We could have easily been a Top 20 offense without any major moves on the market just by adding a non-terrible and cheap PG like Micic.

I'm curious to research this. I'd expect to find that it's pretty rare. Every single "young" team (top ten in age) this season is below average offensively, with the exception of OKC (SGA) and Utah (Markkanen).

I think there is a correlation between the age of your #1, #2, and #3 options and your offensive performance.

To state that our team's offense is bad because we're young is kind of rediculous

Nevermind the fact that the talent on the floor isn't explosive offensively but that was never the identity of this team.

Our young team grinds out possessions, we are 22nd in pace. Our defense is 2nd in the league and we have two guys who have handle and iq like guards but they are twice the size of most guards so we excel at taking advantage of halfcourt mismatches. This style bodes well for slower postseason play.

[MagicMatic]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point.

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

The team has the #2 defense in the league. This didn't happen by accident. They've drafted and traded for players that are plus defenders, and they've focused coaching and player development on establishing a defensive identity. How do you get the #2 defense without intentionally constructing a good defensive team?

You’ve previously had a top 3 DPoY candidate and drafted another top 5-10 defensive player in Suggs. Give me an example of a roster move they’ve made post-Vuc trade that has been of real consequence outside of drafting. I’ll wait.

They have done absolutely nothing to “build around” Franz/Paolo/Suggs aside from draft picks on extremely limited minutes. Then we watch guys on rookie deals struggle immensely at long stretches of time.

[eyriq]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point.

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

The team has the #2 defense in the league. This didn't happen by accident. They've drafted and traded for players that are plus defenders, and they've focused coaching and player development on establishing a defensive identity. How do you get the #2 defense without intentionally constructing a good defensive team?

You’ve previously had a top 3 DPoY candidate and drafted another top 5-10 defensive player in Suggs. Give me an example of a roster move they’ve made post-Vuc trade that has been of real consequence outside of drafting. I’ll wait.

They have done absolutely nothing to “build around” Franz/Paolo/Suggs aside from draft picks on extremely limited minutes. Then we watch guys on rookie deals struggle immensely at long stretches of time.

I agree with this.

My problem is equating player development and core identification with unintentional roster construction. I think they've established an evaluation framework that favors length and defense and are constructing the roster accordingly.

The logical next step is to re-tool around Franz, Paolo, and Suggs. I agree with you that we haven't done that.

[MagicMatic]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all outside of draft selections.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point. I mean what are you arguing here? That signing Joe Ingles equals “construction”?

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

Isaac is playing 15 mpg, and is out every 4-5 games. I dont think he could physically handle starting. Now maybe his minutes go up in the post season and with another summer to strengthen up he can play more. But he has been historically brittle here.

Yeah and this is why I’m hoping his next deal is absolutely nothing like his previous one. If you are gonna be a role player you need to be paid like one.

[The-Stallion70]

Also, it’s not even a question that the roster is poorly constructed. It isn’t ”constructed” at all.

Why? Because Orlando’s big 3 of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were all acquired after the Carter trade. Suggs is filling in as a point guard next to Gary Harris, who is basically a role player at this point.

As a front office you don’t “build backwards” in terms of acquiring your stars after your supplemental guys. You surround your core with players that make their lives easier and put emphasis on their strengths while detracting from their weaknesses. That’s exactly what they didn’t do here with this roster whether people want to admit it or not.

Isaac should be starting. Period. He’s better than Carter and you play your best players always… Don’t really know why this needs to be stated. It doesn’t matter if he can hit 3’s as a Center sometimes. You sign an average point guard so that doesn’t need to be the case.

And yeah, for the millionth time they should have spent money last offseason on a vet point guard before Paolo is paid. There was really no reason not to other than loving the idea that Fultz should be soaking up cap space because you didn’t feel like moving him for anything less than a late first round pick, which he isn’t worth anyway.

The team has the #2 defense in the league. This didn't happen by accident. They've drafted and traded for players that are plus defenders, and they've focused coaching and player development on establishing a defensive identity. How do you get the #2 defense without intentionally constructing a good defensive team?

You’ve previously had a top 3 DPoY candidate and drafted another top 5-10 defensive player in Suggs. Give me an example of a roster move they’ve made post-Vuc trade that has been of real consequence outside of drafting. I’ll wait.

They have done absolutely nothing to “build around” Franz/Paolo/Suggs aside from draft picks on extremely limited minutes. Then we watch guys on rookie deals struggle immensely at long stretches of time.

There are three ways to add players

1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. Signing

Each of these help construct a roster. The roster has absolutely been constructed in this way. What is hard to understand about that?

We drafted Suggs Paolo and Franz.

Hammond and Weltman each have spoken about their "positional size", "length" and "defense" philosophies when 'constructing' a roster. The present team resembles the product of it. Each of these happened after the Vuc trade.

So yes, the current team has been 'constructed' within their blueprint.

[Rainwater]

I feel like there is always an overreaction after each win or loss. This team is not a finished product, pretty certain that the front office knows this. This is only year three of the rebuild guys.

[MagicMatic]

The team has the #2 defense in the league. This didn't happen by accident. They've drafted and traded for players that are plus defenders, and they've focused coaching and player development on establishing a defensive identity. How do you get the #2 defense without intentionally constructing a good defensive team?

You’ve previously had a top 3 DPoY candidate and drafted another top 5-10 defensive player in Suggs. Give me an example of a roster move they’ve made post-Vuc trade that has been of real consequence outside of drafting. I’ll wait.

They have done absolutely nothing to “build around” Franz/Paolo/Suggs aside from draft picks on extremely limited minutes. Then we watch guys on rookie deals struggle immensely at long stretches of time.

There are three ways to add players

1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. Signing

Each of these help construct a roster. The roster has absolutely been constructed in this way. What is hard to understand about that?

We drafted Suggs Paolo and Franz.

Hammond and Weltman each have spoken about their "positional size", "length" and "defense" philosophies when 'constructing' a roster. The present team resembles the product of it. Each of these happened after the Vuc trade.

So yes, the current team has been 'constructed' within their blueprint.

You listed 3 ways of “constructing” a roster around your core and only 1 option they’ve enlisted since acquiring their 3 guys. An option that requires time.

Thanks for proving my point.

Having a priority on skill sets, and utilizing the draft, has been their only way of dealing with this. Furthermore, their draft picks POST selecting Paolo #1 are not contributing currently.

[The-Stallion70]

I feel like there is always an overreaction after each win or loss. This team is not a finished product, pretty certain that the front office knows this. This is only year three of the rebuild guys.

We have homecourt advantage in the playoffs and our best player are each 22 years old and still on their rookie scale deals.

he rebuild is over

[The-Stallion70]

You’ve previously had a top 3 DPoY candidate and drafted another top 5-10 defensive player in Suggs. Give me an example of a roster move they’ve made post-Vuc trade that has been of real consequence outside of drafting. I’ll wait.

They have done absolutely nothing to “build around” Franz/Paolo/Suggs aside from draft picks on extremely limited minutes. Then we watch guys on rookie deals struggle immensely at long stretches of time.

There are three ways to add players

1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. Signing

Each of these help construct a roster. The roster has absolutely been constructed in this way. What is hard to understand about that?

We drafted Suggs Paolo and Franz.

Hammond and Weltman each have spoken about their "positional size", "length" and "defense" philosophies when 'constructing' a roster. The present team resembles the product of it. Each of these happened after the Vuc trade.

So yes, the current team has been 'constructed' within their blueprint.

Having a priority on skill sets, and utilizing the draft, has been their only way of dealing with this. Furthermore, their draft picks POST selecting Paolo #1 are not contributing currently.

Sure but that's not what you said, you said moves made "post-vuc trade"

[MagicMatic]

There are three ways to add players

1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. Signing

Each of these help construct a roster. The roster has absolutely been constructed in this way. What is hard to understand about that?

We drafted Suggs Paolo and Franz.

Hammond and Weltman each have spoken about their "positional size", "length" and "defense" philosophies when 'constructing' a roster. The present team resembles the product of it. Each of these happened after the Vuc trade.

So yes, the current team has been 'constructed' within their blueprint.

Having a priority on skill sets, and utilizing the draft, has been their only way of dealing with this. Furthermore, their draft picks POST selecting Paolo #1 are not contributing currently.

Sure but that's not what you said, you said moves made "post-vuc trade"

The original point I was making…

Is that they had Gary Harris, Isaac, Carter, Fultz, Cole etc. PRIOR to drafting their main core of Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.

The argument is that they have not ADDED a supporting cast of players knowing who their core was beforehand - hence “building backwards”.

To assume they had all their supporting role players BEFORE without knowing HOW things like offense were going to be run. That’s the point.

Drafting players and not playing them isn’t really contributing to that point. They have moved nobody out of those original players. They have made no additions aside from Goga, who doesn’t play, and Ingles who is a mediocre addition in the second unit.

Nobody has been added and they haven’t “constructed” anything post knowing who makes up the core . I’m not really even saying something that is an opinion… it’s just a fact based in reality.

[basketballRob]

The Magic should consider starting Isaac and bringing Gary off the bench. We can't keep getting in huge holes. Even when this starting unit had a good net rating, they were still getting down double digits in the first quarter.

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[Furinkazan]

so our great Defense couldnt stop a gleague team wow

[zaymon]

Having a priority on skill sets, and utilizing the draft, has been their only way of dealing with this. Furthermore, their draft picks POST selecting Paolo #1 are not contributing currently.

Sure but that's not what you said, you said moves made "post-vuc trade"

The original point I was making…

Is that they had Gary Harris, Isaac, Carter, Fultz, Cole etc. PRIOR to drafting their main core of Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.

The argument is that they have not ADDED a supporting cast of players knowing who their core was beforehand - hence “building backwards”.

To assume they had all their supporting role players BEFORE without knowing HOW things like offense were going to be run. That’s the point.

Drafting players and not playing them isn’t really contributing to that point. They have moved nobody out of those original players. They have made no additions aside from Goga, who doesn’t play, and Ingles who is a mediocre addition in the second unit.

Nobody has been added and they haven’t “constructed” anything post knowing who makes up the core . I’m not really even saying something that is an opinion… it’s just a fact based in reality.

Its hard not to agree with you, but they try If facts dont fit, too bad for facts.
Its mostly semantics. You can call everything you do "constructing", but thats not what you meant.
The most important thing is that we are not done "constructing, we are not even close. Its possible we will leave 3-4 players from our rotation next year.
Yes we can agree this year we are done "constructing" roster, but our goal was never maximizing wins. We wanted to keep the team together and develop young players. I think roster was constructed OK for this. Yes we need PG badly, but we reached play ins without it so who cares.

[The-Stallion70]

Sure but that's not what you said, you said moves made "post-vuc trade"

The original point I was making…

Is that they had Gary Harris, Isaac, Carter, Fultz, Cole etc. PRIOR to drafting their main core of Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.

The argument is that they have not ADDED a supporting cast of players knowing who their core was beforehand - hence “building backwards”.

To assume they had all their supporting role players BEFORE without knowing HOW things like offense were going to be run. That’s the point.

Drafting players and not playing them isn’t really contributing to that point. They have moved nobody out of those original players. They have made no additions aside from Goga, who doesn’t play, and Ingles who is a mediocre addition in the second unit.

Nobody has been added and they haven’t “constructed” anything post knowing who makes up the core . I’m not really even saying something that is an opinion… it’s just a fact based in reality.

Its hard not to agree with you, but they try If facts dont fit, too bad for facts.
Its mostly semantics. You can call everything you do "constructing", but thats not what you meant.
The most important thing is that we are not done "constructing, we are not even close. Its possible we will leave 3-4 players from our rotation next year.
Yes we can agree this year we are done "constructing" roster, but our goal was never maximizing wins. We wanted to keep the team together and develop young players. I think roster was constructed OK for this. Yes we need PG badly, but we reached play ins without it so who cares.

What are you even talking about?

Of course we want to maximize wins, we are not a damned farm team, lol. Are you a Lakers fan? We are not just trying to develop players, the Magic are here to kick some ass now

And we literally have home court advantage in the playoffs, we are way ahead of just getting lousy play-ins. Are you delusional man?

[Rainwater]

I feel like there is always an overreaction after each win or loss. This team is not a finished product, pretty certain that the front office knows this. This is only year three of the rebuild guys.

We have homecourt advantage in the playoffs and our best player are each 22 years old and still on their rookie scale deals.

he rebuild is over

You really think this team is the finished product? lol.

No shooters, a non existent guard rotation?

Maybe we have a different definition of when a a rebuild is over, lol.