Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II

[fendilim]

The only way Cole will be useful in playoffs, even if his shots fall, is to be like the defensive pest his father was.

[cedric76]

The only way Cole will be useful in playoffs, even if his shots fall, is to be like the defensive pest his father was.

I m excited when I think black will get his PT next season, we r gonna be very good once we unleash Jett and black

It s like we signed 3 free agents this summer: Monk+Jett+black

[drsd]

The only way Cole will be useful in playoffs, even if his shots fall, is to be like the defensive pest his father was.

I m excited when I think black will get his PT next season, we r gonna be very good once we unleash Jett and black

It s like we signed 3 free agents this summer: Monk+Jett+black

Interesting that Monk and Simons have the same Off-ref: Anfernee Simons (2024) vs. Malik Monk (2024): Head-to-Head Stats Comparison

I still prefer SImons here. But if Monk (or Trent) can be signed outright using capspace only, then the "tiebreaker" is that not-having a trade maintains bench depth.

[eyriq]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

[Knightro]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

The organization did fail him this year. Flat out.

I mean for goodness sake he literally went on record publicly before the draft and outright said he didn't think Orlando was a great fit because of how many guards they already had and that he expected them to clear space if they did pick him.

Then they went ahead and picked him and didn't trade literally any of those guards.

It was malpractice all the way around from the Magic. On what planet were they good enough this year to justify to pick a guy 6th overall and only play him out of position and because of injuries?

[eyriq]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

The organization did fail him this year. Flat out.

I mean for goodness sake he literally went on record publicly before the draft and outright said he didn't think Orlando was a great fit because of how many guards they already had and that he expected them to clear space if they did pick him.

Then they went ahead and picked him and didn't trade literally any of those guards.

It was malpractice all the way around from the Magic. On what planet were they good enough this year to justify to pick a guy 6th overall and only play him out of position and because of injuries?

It really bothers me. Definitely a huge red flag for this front office. If AB busts I'm going to be devastated, and if he hits his potential I'm going to be loath to give this front office and coaching staff any credit. **** malpractice is right.

That said, I also found moritz's exit interview really interesting. He pretty much came out and said that he wasn't planning on playing this deep into the postseason. Or at least that's what it sounded like to me. Like he was talking about getting ready for the Olympics and it sounded like he expected to have a lot more ramp up time than he actually did.

[basketballRob]

Black and Goga both deserved to get minutes in the last 2 months of the season and the playoffs.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

The organization did fail him this year. Flat out.

I mean for goodness sake he literally went on record publicly before the draft and outright said he didn't think Orlando was a great fit because of how many guards they already had and that he expected them to clear space if they did pick him.

Then they went ahead and picked him and didn't trade literally any of those guards.

It was malpractice all the way around from the Magic. On what planet were they good enough this year to justify to pick a guy 6th overall and only play him out of position and because of injuries?

It really bothers me. Definitely a huge red flag for this front office. If AB busts I'm going to be devastated, and if he hits his potential I'm going to be loath to give this front office and coaching staff any credit. **** malpractice is right.

That said, I also found moritz's exit interview really interesting. He pretty much came out and said that he wasn't planning on playing this deep into the postseason. Or at least that's what it sounded like to me. Like he was talking about getting ready for the Olympics and it sounded like he expected to have a lot more ramp up time than he actually did.

when he got asked about long term he laughed a bit paused and then didn't really answer the question. You can tell he was unhappy with his role and how the year played out.

[cedric76]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

The organization did fail him this year. Flat out.

I mean for goodness sake he literally went on record publicly before the draft and outright said he didn't think Orlando was a great fit because of how many guards they already had and that he expected them to clear space if they did pick him.

Then they went ahead and picked him and didn't trade literally any of those guards.

It was malpractice all the way around from the Magic. On what planet were they good enough this year to justify to pick a guy 6th overall and only play him out of position and because of injuries?

I didn't want to draft him but now that he is here, I m fully behind him and expect him to have a bigger role next season once kelle and Cole are Gone

[MagicTownBaller]

Where are the exit interviews?

[eyriq]

The organization did fail him this year. Flat out.

I mean for goodness sake he literally went on record publicly before the draft and outright said he didn't think Orlando was a great fit because of how many guards they already had and that he expected them to clear space if they did pick him.

Then they went ahead and picked him and didn't trade literally any of those guards.

It was malpractice all the way around from the Magic. On what planet were they good enough this year to justify to pick a guy 6th overall and only play him out of position and because of injuries?

It really bothers me. Definitely a huge red flag for this front office. If AB busts I'm going to be devastated, and if he hits his potential I'm going to be loath to give this front office and coaching staff any credit. **** malpractice is right.

That said, I also found moritz's exit interview really interesting. He pretty much came out and said that he wasn't planning on playing this deep into the postseason. Or at least that's what it sounded like to me. Like he was talking about getting ready for the Olympics and it sounded like he expected to have a lot more ramp up time than he actually did.

when he got asked about long term he laughed a bit paused and then didn't really answer the question. You can tell he was unhappy with his role and how the year played out.

Broke my heart a bit and then anger at the coaching staff and front office came to the rescue. Still pissed off about it.

[JoshuaPotter]

Anthony Black's exit interview was rough. No narrative around his long term fit or his contributions. I sense that coaches have failed to associate development areas with performance and role on the court, or the front office has failed to communicate their vision for him with this team, or he just really struggles with confidence.

Where is this? I must know more.

[SOUL]

The "unexpected things" line Anthony Black is talking about is us being competitive from the start of the year. It sounds like there were plans in place to focus on development a bit more this year until we had a shot at homecourt. Also not buying this "we needed to clear space for AB thing", surprised it's a narrative at all. Again, we need to stop adjusting our ceiling or futures for our latest draft crop. Next I'm going to hear how Franz should lose minutes if we draft Tristan da Silva or something.

It only becomes an issue if it's a multi-year, Bamba like thing, but there are pretty clear paths for Anthony Black to get minutes. If there won't be because of FA signings or trade acquisitions, then put him in the trade since it wouldn't make sense not to give the kid a lot more minutes next year.

A 30 year old in Micic came over as a Euroleague MVP and logged less minutes on the year than AB. Regardless if it's happenstance or because of injuries or what have you, he actually has massive amounts of experience and can play and he didn't even get that much run. It happens when teams compete.

Taylor Hendricks didn't get many minutes for a Jazz team that tanked half the year, Jarace Walker wasn't playing on the Pacers and I think they're okay with that.

People are basically saying they'd be okay with being a play-in team instead of a playoff team just to get Black and Jett more minutes. I don't agree with that.

[SOUL]

Only playoff teams with more true rookie minutes (not counting Chet tbh, he has a year of NBA training):

Jaime Jaquez (23 y/o): 2113 MP
Cason Wallace (20 y/o): 1692 MP
Derrick Lively II (20 y/o): 1294 MP
Anthony Black (20 y/o) 1164 MP

Lively was hurt a bit, so add a few more minutes onto there, but I literally only count one example, Cason Wallace, of a team that had committed minutes to a player which could've gone to other people if they wanted it to. Lively was needed for a starved Mavericks team and Jaquez was needed for the Heat, and is also way older.

I think there is a massive amount of pearl clutching and narrative going around when it comes to needing to commit to him this year relative to what other playoff teams were doing.. or even lottery bound teams who didn't fully commit to their rookies until a specific time period (Jazz, Rockets).

Warriors may be a true example of a team trying to commit to two timelines, and that mixed with a lot of internal stuff made for a wonky season.

[eyriq]

What is with Weltman's sniffing?

[eyriq]

Only playoff teams with more true rookie minutes (not counting Chet tbh, he has a year of NBA training):

Jaime Jaquez (23 y/o): 2113 MP
Cason Wallace (20 y/o): 1692 MP
Derrick Lively II (20 y/o): 1294 MP
Anthony Black (20 y/o) 1164 MP

Lively was hurt a bit, so add a few more minutes onto there, but I literally only count one example, Cason Wallace, of a team that had committed minutes to a player which could've gone to other people if they wanted it to. Lively was needed for a starved Mavericks team and Jaquez was needed for the Heat, and is also way older.

I think there is a massive amount of pearl clutching and narrative going around when it comes to needing to commit to him this year relative to what other playoff teams were doing.. or even lottery bound teams who didn't fully commit to their rookies until a specific time period (Jazz, Rockets).

Warriors may be a true example of a team trying to commit to two timelines, and that mixed with a lot of internal stuff made for a wonky season.

That helps me feel better. A bit.

[eyriq]

Weltman: "We added Joe Ingles and two rookies and went from 34 to 47"

[SOUL]

That helps me feel better. A bit.

That's not to say we couldn't have found more minutes for AB in regards to Fultz, but when the barometer is only against Cason Wallace getting 400 more minutes, then we're truly arguing for specific high end win-win scenarios for both rebuilding and competing in terms of optimal team building for now and the future. Very hard to do.

Even if we expand the list a bit to teams in play-ins, we have Brandin Podziemski, who got minutes at the expense of 21 year old 14th pick Moses Moody. It's just not easy to play a bunch of young guys that are already on your roster and also get minutes for other young rookies and also expect to win, but not neglect their needs and playing time either.

Jordan Hawkins got less minutes on a playoff team, Jarace Walker got less minutes on a playoff team, Ben Sheppard got less minutes on a playoff team, Taylor Hendricks got less minutes on a non-playoff team, Kobe Bufkin got less minutes on a non-playoff team.

Not really seeing their fans saying they failed them or they're in a conundrum.

[MagicMatic]

Only playoff teams with more true rookie minutes (not counting Chet tbh, he has a year of NBA training):

Jaime Jaquez (23 y/o): 2113 MP
Cason Wallace (20 y/o): 1692 MP
Derrick Lively II (20 y/o): 1294 MP
Anthony Black (20 y/o) 1164 MP

Lively was hurt a bit, so add a few more minutes onto there, but I literally only count one example, Cason Wallace, of a team that had committed minutes to a player which could've gone to other people if they wanted it to. Lively was needed for a starved Mavericks team and Jaquez was needed for the Heat, and is also way older.

I think there is a massive amount of pearl clutching and narrative going around when it comes to needing to commit to him this year relative to what other playoff teams were doing.. or even lottery bound teams who didn't fully commit to their rookies until a specific time period (Jazz, Rockets).

Warriors may be a true example of a team trying to commit to two timelines, and that mixed with a lot of internal stuff made for a wonky season.

I think the big reason people weren’t happy with the decision to shelve Anthony Black is a little bit deeper than listing a bunch of guys saying LOOK HERE. It’s a little disingenuous to be honest.

Black was a top lotto pick. He had a very successful run in games he started early. There was little to no evidence Fultz or Cole were actually significantly better options than him outside of Mosely merely making the decision. That’s kinda a far cry from comparing Hendricks to earning minutes over guys like Markk and Collins. Not really a comparison if we are being honest.

It’s also kind of funny you listed guys from Miami, OKC, and Dallas… yeah the teams the most successful with actually developing their draft picks as opposed to say… Orlando.

Your example with the Warriors also doesn’t really hold water. You are comparing a dying dynasty with their holdovers to a 21-22 year old core team that hasn’t accomplished anything up until 2 weeks ago. Podz and Kuminga still got decent playing time all things considered. But again… not really a good comparison. Same thing with New Orleans.. are you benching CJ and any of their big defensive wings for Hawkins? No. That isn’t the same thing as comparing Black to two guys that are extremely questionable nba talents.

Cole Anthony gets targeted a lot. Same with Fultz. Fultz doesn’t shoot. Anthony Black is better defensively than both and CAN actually shoot the ball. That’s the difference. The Jett stash I understand to some degree. He isn’t better defensively than Suggs or Gary. The minutes aren’t there and Houstan exists.

[SOUL]

I'm only replying to the parts I disagree with, because like I said, I ultimately do think AB should've got minutes over Fultz at the very least.

Black was a top lotto pick. He had a very successful run in games he started early. There was little to no evidence Fultz or Cole were actually significantly better options than him outside of Mosely merely making the decision. That’s kinda a far cry from comparing Hendricks to earning minutes over guys like Markk and Collins. Not really a comparison if we are being honest.

Correction, WE had a good string of games as a team with him starting with 4 other people... he wasn't the main driver in those. If you want to claim that his presence in their helped settle other people down, sure. If you want to say his willingness to let the ball move more and his defense did a lot, sure. But the fact of the matter is, the bench was amazing during that stretch and we obviously still had Franz and Paolo and Suggs.

His FG%, threes made, and assists in our 9 game winning streak:

50% (2-4) / 1 three / 3 assists
60% (3-5) / 1 three / 3 assists
25% (1-4) / 0 threes / 3 assists
0% (0-1) / 0 threes / 0 assist
0% (0-1) / 0 threes / 1 assists
28% (2-7) / 0 threes / 1 assist
20% (1-5) / 0 threes / 1 assist
50% (1-2) / 0 threes / 0 assists
37% (3-8) / 0 threes / 2 assists

(14 total assists, 13 turnovers)

The only reason these string of games get pointed to is because it was our longest win streak, and correlation doesn't imply causation, otherwise, like I said, I can similarly point to a win streak last year with Bol Bol and Fultz and make a faulty argument based on that.

The arguments to play Cole and Gary are based on month long sample sizes of higher usage ball.

For Cole, he fell off a cliff iin January, but he was our best scorer off of the bench averaging around 15 ppg before that, and was vital to our hot start. Can create his own shot as a guard, which nobody outside of Suggs (who also didn't do it that much) was doing. That's why he played.

Gary had a 22 game stretch of around 50/40 ball with good defense in which we went 16-5. A lot of bad teams, but we were a bad team just a year ago. The stats were backing up the win-streak, and obviously he provided a need in three point shooting.

What people point to with Anthony Black and Goga is the 9 game winning streak, not random big games outside of that. You may disagree with everything I write, but you must acknowledge that most of the arguments to play them come from that streak. And in that 9 game sample size, Anthony Black was shooting 35% and has 2 three pointers in that stretch and is only a viable argument because the team won. Goga at least has the stats/advanced stats in his favor when it comes to the winning streak.

The reason why I'm bringing up Harris is that a lot of people want Black/Suggs as a backcourt and didn't want Harris playing at all.

Anthony Black is better defensively than both CAN actually shoot the ball. That’s the difference.

We don't know this exactly, but his three point shot being better than advertised is promising. 1.6 a game isn't enough to sway me one way or another yet, but he's shown that he can at the very least hit threes when he's set up.

That being said...

Surely you can see the issue of Black being a PG that isn't shooting any threes off the dribble or attacking into the paint with any regularity, even in scrub minutes. If he has to be set up by Suggs, Franz, Paolo, don't you think that hampers his shooting ability and positional versatility of a guy drafted as point guard?

Then you can say, "Well, even if he isn't doing much out there, he keeps the ball moving and can be a great point of attack defender". Which, cool, but that benefit loses its allure a bit when you realize we already have a great POA defender in Suggs out there who is also hitting threes in volume, and you still need some juice out there.

I love the idea of Black and think he will be huge for us in the future. I've also said I thought he should be playing over Fultz because Fultz doesn't have a future here. But sometimes there are just specific things coaches value, I guess. Same reason why a lot of these washed up vets get minutes. Hell, we had Ben Gordon, Willie Green and others getting minutes while actively fielding a young team headed to the LOTTERY, not the playoffs. Nick Nurse played Tobias Harris despite him expiring and fans at their wit's end with him. Rick Carlisle is playing Doug McDermott minutes over Jarace Walker. You bring up CJ McCollum, but go to the Pelicans reddit and look how they feel about him lol.