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Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#421 » by MagicMatic » Tue May 7, 2024 2:54 pm

Audi wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:I spent WAY too much time on this forum telling people Fultz should have been moved prior to this season. Like… I need to delete this account and reevaluate my life amounts of time. Had the FO just moved Fultz and not split his minutes with Cole (and benched Black) we would have been better off. Why? Because I’m not just looking at box scores. I’m looking at trends in player efficiency over the course of the season. Cole Anthony became a shell of himself when Fultz returned. That’s the reason as to why. There’s a direct correlation and it’s not even an argument. Cole didn’t even look like he was having fun since like February. He looked pissed off and going through the motions. Suggs alluded to this.. Black was also getting good reps in those extra minutes. It really fcked a lot up in the guard rotation and it was a completely unnecessary decision that should have been avoided.


The thought of Fultz's mere presence back in the lineup being enough for Cole to 'become a shell of himself' makes me want Cole off the team, not to placate his weak mentality so he can 'have fun' or whatever.
Of course, I don't buy the correlation you are making at all. There's absolutely "an argument" about there being direct correlation. I think Cole hit a personal rough spot and it clearly got in his head. These things happen. Players hit low places and have bad seasons. I think we can rest assured that Fultz had little-to-nothing to do with it.


Of course you would like to believe Fultz returning had nothing to do with it… the problem with that is that we have actual data now to know it was absolutely the case. Now, could something else have happened? Sure. But you aren’t going to tell me that throwing another 16-20mpg minute split (effectively taking his spot in the rotation) into the mix wasn’t going to change something.

Cole Anthony’s numbers from the start of the season until Fultz comes back logging real minutes around January 17th changed immensely.

Just off the top of my head.. Cole goes from averaging 26mpg in the beginning of the season to something like 19mpg when Fultz returns and goes from averaging 14ppg and dropping to like 9ppg to round out that timeframe. The bench mob numbers also went down significantly after that timeframe. You can draw the correlation if you want.

If you want to argue something else happened to Cole we aren’t aware of, then fine. But the guy was having a great season until he started sharing his minutes in stupid lineups with Fultz.

Back to the point…

Markelle Fultz this season was not significantly better than the minutes we saw with Anthony Black to the point that thinking a section of the fan base is insane for believing he deserved those minutes, while simultaneously having Cole fall off a cliff as well.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#422 » by JoshuaPotter » Tue May 7, 2024 3:03 pm

MagicMatic wrote:And we will never know.

I’m just pushing back on this idea that Black was unplayable throughout the season because he had better point guards blocking his minutes ( like what? :lol: ).

We saw enough games with him to know he wasn’t some unplayable scrub that wasn’t worthy of in game investment this season OR a guy that could have contributed defensively similar to how Gary was used.

Now, if Mosely wants to prioritize experience then fine. I just don’t get the hoops people jump through to claim a portion of the fan base is delusional for wondering where he was when Fultz and Cole looked like ass for the last 20 games and into the playoffs.


I think we both wasted (Ok I had fun) a lot of last season saying that Fultz + Harris are easily replaceable. That was Fultz + Harris of TWO SEASONS ago now....even more food for thought.

So, here we are. Worst season from Fultz and Harris compared to our arguments last year. In so much that we started a rookie that wasn't even known for shooting, and was a huge question mark everywhere else for "enough minutes to see that he was playable". Yet we see him shelved for injured experience?

Black proved, demonstrably, definitively in his rookie season that we could have moved on from one of Fultz / Harris this season and given minutes to Black. In hindsight, you could potentially add Cole to that list because his half season funk is now well...part of history.

I totally get everyone here saying "we need to improve the guard position". We have repurposed phrases like "Sunk cost", "narrative", "experience over a rookie", "coaches play to win", "medical malpractice", if I missed anything let me know.

We were sitting on a kings ransom of trade high and get something. Use your high 1st round pick to nab an experienced player. Well...we didn't. So now what do we have? A bunch of expiring and cap space that everyone is saying needs to be used to replace the players who are leaving and ignoring the waste of a perfectly good pick.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#423 » by MagicMatic » Tue May 7, 2024 3:14 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:And we will never know.

I’m just pushing back on this idea that Black was unplayable throughout the season because he had better point guards blocking his minutes ( like what? :lol: ).

We saw enough games with him to know he wasn’t some unplayable scrub that wasn’t worthy of in game investment this season OR a guy that could have contributed defensively similar to how Gary was used.

Now, if Mosely wants to prioritize experience then fine. I just don’t get the hoops people jump through to claim a portion of the fan base is delusional for wondering where he was when Fultz and Cole looked like ass for the last 20 games and into the playoffs.


I think we both wasted (Ok I had fun) a lot of last season saying that Fultz + Harris are easily replaceable. That was Fultz + Harris of TWO SEASONS ago now....even more food for thought.

So, here we are. Worst season from Fultz and Harris compared to our arguments last year. In so much that we started a rookie that wasn't even known for shooting, and was a huge question mark everywhere else for "enough minutes to see that he was playable". Yet we see him shelved for injured experience?

Black proved, demonstrably, definitively in his rookie season that we could have moved on from one of Fultz / Harris this season and given minutes to Black. In hindsight, you could potentially add Cole to that list because his half season funk is now well...part of history.

I totally get everyone here saying "we need to improve the guard position". We have repurposed phrases like "Sunk cost", "narrative", "experience over a rookie", "coaches play to win", "medical malpractice", if I missed anything let me know.

We were sitting on a kings ransom of trade high and get something. Use your high 1st round pick to nab an experienced player. Well...we didn't. So now what do we have? A bunch of expiring and cap space that everyone is saying needs to be used to replace the players who are leaving and ignoring the waste of a perfectly good pick.


You pretty much nailed it.

I’m WAY past the talk of trade value at this point. That ship sailed a long time ago, came back, and departed again.

There’s just no valid reason to withhold the progress Cole made in the beginning of the season AND not get the rookie valuable experience because Mosely felt the need to play a guy significant minutes that should not be here next season.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#424 » by Audi » Tue May 7, 2024 3:32 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Audi wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:I spent WAY too much time on this forum telling people Fultz should have been moved prior to this season. Like… I need to delete this account and reevaluate my life amounts of time. Had the FO just moved Fultz and not split his minutes with Cole (and benched Black) we would have been better off. Why? Because I’m not just looking at box scores. I’m looking at trends in player efficiency over the course of the season. Cole Anthony became a shell of himself when Fultz returned. That’s the reason as to why. There’s a direct correlation and it’s not even an argument. Cole didn’t even look like he was having fun since like February. He looked pissed off and going through the motions. Suggs alluded to this.. Black was also getting good reps in those extra minutes. It really fcked a lot up in the guard rotation and it was a completely unnecessary decision that should have been avoided.


The thought of Fultz's mere presence back in the lineup being enough for Cole to 'become a shell of himself' makes me want Cole off the team, not to placate his weak mentality so he can 'have fun' or whatever.
Of course, I don't buy the correlation you are making at all. There's absolutely "an argument" about there being direct correlation. I think Cole hit a personal rough spot and it clearly got in his head. These things happen. Players hit low places and have bad seasons. I think we can rest assured that Fultz had little-to-nothing to do with it.


Of course you would like to believe Fultz returning had nothing to do with it… the problem with that is that we have actual data now to know it was absolutely the case. Now, could something else have happened? Sure. But you aren’t going to tell me that throwing another 16-20mpg minute split (effectively taking his spot in the rotation) into the mix wasn’t going to change something.

Cole Anthony’s numbers from the start of the season until Fultz comes back logging real minutes around January 17th changed immensely.

Just off the top of my head.. Cole goes from averaging 26mpg in the beginning of the season to something like 19mpg when Fultz returns and goes from averaging 14ppg and dropping to like 9ppg to round out that timeframe.

If you want to argue something else happened to Cole we aren’t aware of, then fine. But the guy was having a great season until he started sharing his minutes in stupid lineups with Fultz.

Back to the point…

Markelle Fultz this season was not significantly better than the minutes we saw with Anthony Black to the point that thinking a section of the fan base is insane for thinking he deserved minutes.


I thought I was pretty vocal about my thoughts on playing a clearly injured Fultz when we had a healthy AB sitting on the bench, so I'm definitely not in a 'AB didn't deserve more minutes' camp (if there is one).

And of course - the Cole/Fultz backcourt was typically a dumpster fire, but that wasn't a new revelation...I think we've always known that even in past seasons. But I don't see Fultz as the reason for Cole's woes. There was/is clearly something else going on and the easiest way to know that is recognizing that Cole was pretty much ass in lineups even without Fultz. Dude was/is just in a major slump and hopefully gets out of it soon. And when he does I won't attribute it to Fultz walking in FA, I'll attribute it to Cole getting out of his own head.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#425 » by RookieStar » Tue May 7, 2024 9:12 pm

drsd wrote:Working my way through the exit interviews and Anthony's had some gems.

1) he clearly stated he had personal things this year. (Did they effect his game?) He said this will be removed to have better "mental health" next season. Hmm.
2) he mentioned Hank Waters by name in describing how wonderful Magic fans were this year.

3) and why I am posting now, Anthony created a new nickname for Banchero: Playoff-P.

What do we think of that moniker?


Total rip-off!

The OG Playoff-P is a FA target of ours if rumors are to be believed.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#426 » by KillMonger » Wed May 8, 2024 4:18 am

My problem with AB not playing anymore is that he didn't get played off the court..... He earned his minutes like weltman said he needed to in training camp then he went back to not playing at all when kelle got back....that was the mistake imo, should've found minutes for AB... Especially considering the uneven play of Markelle afterwards

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#427 » by CZ Eddie » Fri May 10, 2024 1:03 am

Didn't see the usual "around the NBA" thread.

Wow, Big Baby got 40 months in prison.
I wasn't following the whole Insurance scam news, so I'm a little surprised they spanked the baby so hard.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40113791/glen-big-baby-davis-sentenced-40-months-prison-fraud-scheme
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#428 » by eyriq » Fri May 10, 2024 1:13 am

KillMonger wrote:My problem with AB not playing anymore is that he didn't get played off the court..... He earned his minutes like weltman said he needed to in training camp then he went back to not playing at all when kelle got back....that was the mistake imo, should've found minutes for AB... Especially considering the uneven play of Markelle afterwards

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Huge mistake. Mosley is still learning, too, and I imagine our culture is sensitive.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#429 » by drsd » Fri May 10, 2024 2:30 am

eyriq wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=Vl4iFolq9TVNHlFHUyI78Q&s=19


I expect Black and Howard to live in the Magic training facility. They might as well be given cot-beds inside it. They aren't going anywhere this summer.

One thing in this: Black and Howard going against each other this summer is brilliant.

Black gets to work on his offense against a not great defender, while really, really working to improve his perimeter defense. Black learns a defense skill as well as improving his shooting game.

Howard gets to work on his defense against a not great scorer, while really, really working to improve his inside game against a great defender. Howard learns a offensive skill as well as improving his defense.

I can't imagine a more ying-yang symmetry if I tried.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#430 » by drsd » Fri May 10, 2024 2:37 am

CZ Eddie wrote:Didn't see the usual "around the NBA" thread.

Wow, Big Baby got 40 months in prison.
I wasn't following the whole Insurance scam news, so I'm a little surprised they spanked the baby so hard.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40113791/glen-big-baby-davis-sentenced-40-months-prison-fraud-scheme


You are surprised that a black man got 40 months for stealing a lot of money from a multinational conglomerate?

That said, Keyon Dooling "only" got 30 months. Perhaps it is because Davis is a repeat offender as a convicted former drug dealer.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#431 » by cedric76 » Fri May 10, 2024 4:40 am

drsd wrote:
CZ Eddie wrote:Didn't see the usual "around the NBA" thread.

Wow, Big Baby got 40 months in prison.
I wasn't following the whole Insurance scam news, so I'm a little surprised they spanked the baby so hard.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40113791/glen-big-baby-davis-sentenced-40-months-prison-fraud-scheme


You are surprised that a black man got 40 months for stealing a lot of money from a multinational conglomerate?

That said, Keyon Dooling "only" got 30 months. Perhaps it is because Davis is a repeat offender as a convicted former drug dealer.


Why mention color?
Draft Carter
Sign monk
Trade Cole for a forward
Let chuma+fultz go
Offer Harris and goga a 1+1 deal

unleash Jett next seaon

Go Magic

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Monk, Jett, Harris
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#432 » by drsd » Fri May 10, 2024 6:34 am

cedric76 wrote:
drsd wrote:
CZ Eddie wrote:Didn't see the usual "around the NBA" thread.

Wow, Big Baby got 40 months in prison.
I wasn't following the whole Insurance scam news, so I'm a little surprised they spanked the baby so hard.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40113791/glen-big-baby-davis-sentenced-40-months-prison-fraud-scheme


You are surprised that a black man got 40 months for stealing a lot of money from a multinational conglomerate?

That said, Keyon Dooling "only" got 30 months. Perhaps it is because Davis is a repeat offender as a convicted former drug dealer.


Why mention color?


There is enormous evidence that skin-color is a major determinate to sentencing lengths in the US federal penal system. It is half of what the BLM movement is all about (the other half being police brutality against persons of color).

Which was my point: why would anyone be surprised Davis got 40 months, given who he is?
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#433 » by eyriq » Fri May 10, 2024 4:37 pm

If I had to pick a Twitter account for Knightro it would low-key be this one. He frequently spits knowledge.

Read on Twitter
?t=HvEIkKHW9TFxDFfTr2lEWQ&s=19
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#434 » by Message Boar » Fri May 10, 2024 8:20 pm



Coach Mose did an interview on JJ' Redick's pod; runs from 16:05 until 1:13:35 (JJ going DEEP)

Sorry if it's already been posted elsewhere.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#435 » by Knightro » Fri May 10, 2024 8:22 pm

eyriq wrote:If I had to pick a Twitter account for Knightro it would low-key be this one. He frequently spits knowledge.

Read on Twitter
?t=HvEIkKHW9TFxDFfTr2lEWQ&s=19


I prefer this one.

https://twitter.com/Eknackstedt

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#436 » by eyriq » Fri May 10, 2024 8:27 pm

Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:If I had to pick a Twitter account for Knightro it would low-key be this one. He frequently spits knowledge.

Read on Twitter
?t=HvEIkKHW9TFxDFfTr2lEWQ&s=19


I prefer this one.

https://twitter.com/Eknackstedt

:D
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#437 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri May 10, 2024 10:53 pm

eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:If I had to pick a Twitter account for Knightro it would low-key be this one. He frequently spits knowledge.

Read on Twitter
?t=HvEIkKHW9TFxDFfTr2lEWQ&s=19


I prefer this one.

https://twitter.com/Eknackstedt

:D
I wouldn't blame you! That's a handsome devil.


I checked out his stats about "mid range monsters" and man does that pass the eye test. I am telling you, while Paolo does need to improve other aspects of his game, his mid-range is already S tier and he should be leveraging that a lot more then he does.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#438 » by Jaxfann » Sun May 12, 2024 12:48 am

MagicMatic wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
However, it matters within the context of Anthony Black and this season. Harris MIGHT have been the better decision in the playoffs next to Suggs given the matchup. Not sure you or anyone can argue those Fultz/Cole minutes were good or should have ever happened. In the back of my mind I think AB could have guarded their back court better than either of those guys. Maybe I’m wrong. We will never know.


Throw me in with the hyperbolic group of....

Did we lose the first round because Black played?

How many regular season games did we lose because Black played?

It's not like we went "you live by the Paolo you die by the Paolo" but with Black.

Like OK, this actually isn't directed at you MagicMatic. In fact nothing here is directed at you. I am exhausted with spitting the fact that 6th pick, mr "raw but supposedly unplayable talent" Black was possibly our 3rd best guard on the roster (at least situational) and he got zero burn or worse.

I could understand that right at the end of the season G Harris and Suggs were really gelling defensively. I absolutely think Weham is offering Harris a contract right now based off that.

Otherwise, this idea though that Black couldn't get Fultz or Cole minutes in the playoffs just feels wrong. OK bench him on the playoffs aspect because maybe we lose in 6 instead of 7. The fact that there is a reasonable argument that we might not do any worse with Black on the floor means

- They know Black sucks and we don't.
- Mosely prefers almost anyone over rookies. (But this doesn't sound right, because otherwise how does Paolo do so well?)

I'm stumped. What's worse, is I have to admit that I would personally have been OK with a worse record if we had a better idea of what our players were capable of. What's worse then that? We are going into free agency "thinking" our 3rd best guard (arguably 2nd now) on the rotation is a guy who can't get minutes from 1 dude who shouldn't be in the NBA this season (Fultz), 1 dude who is going to be a free agent (G Harris) and another person who disappeared most of the second half of the season (Cole).

But yeah he is a rookie, and we aren't in the 3rd year of a rebuild.


And we will never know.

I’m just pushing back on this idea that Black was unplayable throughout the season because he had better point guards blocking his minutes ( like what? :lol: ).

We saw enough games with him to know he wasn’t some unplayable scrub that wasn’t worthy of in game investment this season OR a guy that could have contributed defensively similar to how Gary was used.

Now, if Mosely wants to prioritize experience then fine. I just don’t get the hoops people jump through to claim a portion of the fan base is delusional for wondering where he was when Fultz and Cole looked like ass for the last 20 games and into the playoffs.


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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#439 » by BadMofoPimp » Sun May 12, 2024 1:00 am

I think Cole will be moved this off-season. I think he is unhappy with his role. I remember when Banchero made a great play at the end of a win and the entire team was going nuts except Cole. He had a scowl on his face. I like him and prefer to keep him but if he could be moved with Jett/WCJ/Cole and a future 1st for a legit starting PG like Murray or a better Center, you make the move.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#440 » by Jaxfann » Sun May 12, 2024 1:07 am

:noway:
drsd wrote:Howard WANTS to play in Vegas at the Summer league.

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