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Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread

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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#621 » by fendilim » Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:58 pm

Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:Injury luck or misfortune is out of our control outside of moving off of injury prone players.

A benefit of being young is that player development yields an outside effect on team improvement. The development of Paolo, Franz, Suggs, AB, and Jett should weigh heavily on our ability to take a step forward next season. Taking a step back would be pretty bad.

Is a top 5 defense sustainable?
Can those lotto talents run a top 20 offense?

Improvement on offense will come due to the development of Paolo, Franz, Suggs, AB, and Jett.


I have zero doubt in my mind the Magic will have a worse record next season than they had this season if they don't make additions to the roster.

Whether that's via free agency or via trade. They need to keep adding to the talent level on this roster if they want to keep progressing.

Just saying "ok Fultz and Harris are out, Black and Jett are in" and expecting the internal improvement from Paolo, Franz and Suggs to just carry them to 50+ wins ain't it.

Bank on that internal improvement *and* make additions. Do both. Maximize your situation.

letting go of Fultz and Harris, will obviously we will need to make some moves, right?

We may be below the cap floor without them.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#622 » by bigdogdylan5 » Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:16 pm

Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:Injury luck or misfortune is out of our control outside of moving off of injury prone players.

A benefit of being young is that player development yields an outside effect on team improvement. The development of Paolo, Franz, Suggs, AB, and Jett should weigh heavily on our ability to take a step forward next season. Taking a step back would be pretty bad.

Is a top 5 defense sustainable?
Can those lotto talents run a top 20 offense?

Improvement on offense will come due to the development of Paolo, Franz, Suggs, AB, and Jett.


I have zero doubt in my mind the Magic will have a worse record next season than they had this season if they don't make additions to the roster.

Whether that's via free agency or via trade. They need to keep adding to the talent level on this roster if they want to keep progressing.

Just saying "ok Fultz and Harris are out, Black and Jett are in" and expecting the internal improvement from Paolo, Franz and Suggs to just carry them to 50+ wins ain't it.

Bank on that internal improvement *and* make additions. Do both. Maximize your situation.

Ok then you should trade Jett. Let’s say you bring in Monk and Tyus Jones here is rotation:

Jones/cole
Suggs/Monk
Franz/Black
Paolo/isaac
WCJ/Mo

Jett will be back in g-league losing value with every game. I guess we can get just Tyus but that’s getting rid of Fultz Ingles and Harris.
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I am high on Markelle Fultz. Yes I understand he is not perfect and needs to shoot more and better and turn the ball over less. I would really like to see him play one more year… and I did and he sucks time to move on.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#623 » by Knightro » Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:16 pm

fendilim wrote:letting go of Fultz and Harris, will obviously we will need to make some moves, right?

We may be below the cap floor without them.


You are correct.

No matter what, the Magic have to spend 90% of the salary cap to hit the salary floor. 90% of a projected $141M cap is approximately $127M.

As it stands right now, if they fully guarantee both of their non-guaranteed contracts (Isaac, Houstan) and pick up both of their team options (Ingles, Moritz), they're at approximately $108M on 11 players plus the cap hit for their 18th overall first round pick.

So that means have to spend $19M no matter what just to reach the salary floor and could spend up to $33M to reach the salary cap.

They can free up more money if they choose to move on from Isaac, Houston, Ingles or Moritz.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#624 » by MagicMatic » Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:34 pm

Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:You'd have to break this down for me, I don't see how running it back = setback


The Magic were the healthiest team in the Eastern Conference this season. They benefitted significantly from other teams in the East suffering significant injuries, both in terms of winning a lot of regular season games against teams missing star players and also from teams who finished barely behind them in the standings having long extended stretches without their top talent.

That is very unlikely to be sustainable.

Combined Games Missed by Top 3 Scorers
Celtics: 45 games
Knicks: 42 games
Bucks: 45 games
Cavs: 57 games
Magic: 19 games
Pacers: 41 games
Sixers: 67 games
Heat: 73 games
Bulls: 63 games
Hawks: 58 games

On top of that, I assume you're talking about replacing a very capable veteran in Gary Harris who has made 39% of his threes on 8.2 3PTA/100 while playing very respectable defense since joining the Magic with a 20 year old who barely cracked 1000 minutes as a rookie and was statistically a net negative.

Black was nearly twice as bad as Harris (-2.9 to -1.5) according to EPM. To assume there won't be a drop off making that switch seems like wishful thinking in a big way. Plus throw in the desire to have Jett, who basically didn't even play at all this season into the rotation too.

Those two guys are very likely going to be negatives next season because they're so young and so inexperienced. Most young guys are bad. The time to play them and work out some of those young guy problems was this year. Not next year when the expectation level is going to be a lot higher than it was this year.


As much as everyone is in a group hug right now with this team exceeding expectations...

The FO still has a huge offseason to address. Why? Because contract windows don't stop. Acquiring players shouldn't be put on hold for a young roster with glaring needs. At some point they will need to gradually acquire players that fill those needs, rather than believing it will happen all at once.

Now, if people want to make the argument that Anthony Black and Jett Howard should be stepping into minutes then thats another argument... But people should not be expecting better results if thats the case. People forget that Orlando was very healthy this season comparatively.

There will absolutely be a drop-off next season if the FO doesn't actually start to shape this roster around Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. It still remains to be seen. They now have all the information available to make decisions. There is no waiting game that solves the issues available if they want to increase the teams ceiling for next season outside of extreme jumps in development. The composition still doesnt change though.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#625 » by JBSouthpaw » Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:48 pm

Time for a game 5 thread!!! Whomever made the last 2, you have to make this one too!
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#626 » by JoshuaPotter » Wed May 1, 2024 12:35 pm

Game 6 incoming this Friday. Is there a handle on what the injury list of both teams are? I watched the game but missed the part Gary went down. When did that happen? How long is he expected to be out?
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#627 » by JoshuaPotter » Wed May 1, 2024 12:48 pm

It's a little early for series player grades or even regular season grades.... I just can't help myself giving a potential preview.

Cole is beyond past due. Not only that, up to this point he isn't doing well out there at all. I am going from a "he will thrive in a bench role 6 man type" to "does he never belong on an NBA roster." Like it's amazing how far he has dropped off.

Is he injured? Pressure? Personal life woes? Taking shooting advice from Fultz? Hired Fultz shooting coach? What's going on here!
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#628 » by basketballRob » Wed May 1, 2024 1:02 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:It's a little early for series player grades or even regular season grades.... I just can't help myself giving a potential preview.

Cole is beyond past due. Not only that, up to this point he isn't doing well out there at all. I am going from a "he will thrive in a bench role 6 man type" to "does he never belong on an NBA roster." Like it's amazing how far he has dropped off.

Is he injured? Pressure? Personal life woes? Taking shooting advice from Fultz? Hired Fultz shooting coach? What's going on here!
He's been a liability on defense.

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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#629 » by JoshuaPotter » Wed May 1, 2024 1:07 pm

basketballRob wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:It's a little early for series player grades or even regular season grades.... I just can't help myself giving a potential preview.

Cole is beyond past due. Not only that, up to this point he isn't doing well out there at all. I am going from a "he will thrive in a bench role 6 man type" to "does he never belong on an NBA roster." Like it's amazing how far he has dropped off.

Is he injured? Pressure? Personal life woes? Taking shooting advice from Fultz? Hired Fultz shooting coach? What's going on here!
He's been a liability on defense.

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We knew he would be, hence the 6th man moniker. He has vanished on both ends.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#630 » by UCFJayBird » Wed May 1, 2024 1:13 pm

It's remarkable to me that I came into this season having expectations for both Fultz and Anthony and I can't decide which of them is a bigger disappointment, lol. I think Anthony, because Fultz I can blame on his TOS and write off. But Cole looked amazing at the start of the season, cut his hair, and then just fall off the planet.

Cole:

Image

Time to regroup. Find a way to force a game 7 and tighten up the rotation in Game 7. No reason to be playing so many guys from the bench if they aren't producing and the guy in front of them is and has gas in the tank.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#631 » by eyriq » Wed May 1, 2024 1:14 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:It's a little early for series player grades or even regular season grades.... I just can't help myself giving a potential preview.

Cole is beyond past due. Not only that, up to this point he isn't doing well out there at all. I am going from a "he will thrive in a bench role 6 man type" to "does he never belong on an NBA roster." Like it's amazing how far he has dropped off.

Is he injured? Pressure? Personal life woes? Taking shooting advice from Fultz? Hired Fultz shooting coach? What's going on here!
He's been a liability on defense.

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We knew he would be, hence the 6th man moniker. He has vanished on both ends.
What really surprises me is that his leash was super short. We didn't even game plan for him to be the sixth man in this series. It's not like he went out there and underperformed in big minutes, he never got big minutes. I think the only reason we extended him was to have a trade asset. Hard to let rookie contracts just expire.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#632 » by JoshuaPotter » Wed May 1, 2024 1:25 pm

eyriq wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:
basketballRob wrote:He's been a liability on defense.

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We knew he would be, hence the 6th man moniker. He has vanished on both ends.
What really surprises me is that his leash was super short. We didn't even game plan for him to be the sixth man in this series. It's not like he went out there and underperformed in big minutes, he never got big minutes. I think the only reason we extended him was to have a trade asset. Hard to let rookie contracts just expire.


Weve said this all season. That unless your name starts with Paolo you are on a short leash. Franz / Suggs, if they miss shots they taper off. Paolo sometimes, but Paolo mostly get to make all the poor and statistically low decisions because points got to come from someone.

Of course, then someone laughs it off, says that isn't it, but now we are more then 82 games in and its the only rational excuse left.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#633 » by Knightro » Wed May 1, 2024 1:50 pm

UCFJayBird wrote:It's remarkable to me that I came into this season having expectations for both Fultz and Anthony and I can't decide which of them is a bigger disappointment, lol. I think Anthony, because Fultz I can blame on his TOS and write off. But Cole looked amazing at the start of the season, cut his hair, and then just fall off the planet.

Cole:

Image

Time to regroup. Find a way to force a game 7 and tighten up the rotation in Game 7. No reason to be playing so many guys from the bench if they aren't producing and the guy in front of them is and has gas in the tank.


Cole's decline from last season to this season has arguably been the most damaging thing for the Magic overall. If he was playing like the Cole from last season, they probably would have already won this series.

They believed in Cole enough to actually give him a contract extension, which as much as I've bitched and moaned about all things Fultz, they did not give one to Markelle. So they clearly were expecting to see a level up, not a level down.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#634 » by Knightro » Wed May 1, 2024 1:52 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:Weve said this all season. That unless your name starts with Paolo you are on a short leash. Franz / Suggs, if they miss shots they taper off. Paolo sometimes, but Paolo mostly get to make all the poor and statistically low decisions because points got to come from someone.

Of course, then someone laughs it off, says that isn't it, but now we are more then 82 games in and its the only rational excuse left.


I don't believe that's a coaching thing so much as it's a personality of the players thing.

Franz and Suggs (especially Franz) never don't have the green light to keep shoot. They might stop shooting as much if they're struggling, but that's on them and their personality.

Paolo's never gonna stop shooting.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#635 » by eyriq » Wed May 1, 2024 2:31 pm

Who replaces Harris on the SL?

It should be AB, it will be Fultz.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#636 » by MagicMatic » Wed May 1, 2024 2:39 pm

Knightro wrote:
UCFJayBird wrote:It's remarkable to me that I came into this season having expectations for both Fultz and Anthony and I can't decide which of them is a bigger disappointment, lol. I think Anthony, because Fultz I can blame on his TOS and write off. But Cole looked amazing at the start of the season, cut his hair, and then just fall off the planet.

Cole:

Image

Time to regroup. Find a way to force a game 7 and tighten up the rotation in Game 7. No reason to be playing so many guys from the bench if they aren't producing and the guy in front of them is and has gas in the tank.


Cole's decline from last season to this season has arguably been the most damaging thing for the Magic overall. If he was playing like the Cole from last season, they probably would have already won this series.

They believed in Cole enough to actually give him a contract extension, which as much as I've bitched and moaned about all things Fultz, they did not give one to Markelle. So they clearly were expecting to see a level up, not a level down.


Cole dropped off immensely when Fultz was inserted back into a regular amount of minutes. You can easily see his drop in efficiency in the change in minutes. Cole was giving us great minutes earlier in the season. He actually doesn’t even seem like the same player energy wise now.

And still.. Mosely would rather start Gary Harris than Fultz because of shooting and defense, while Anthony Black gets zero minutes. They should have moved Fultz. It’s not even an argument.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#637 » by The-Stallion70 » Wed May 1, 2024 2:56 pm

UCFJayBird wrote:It's remarkable to me that I came into this season having expectations for both Fultz and Anthony and I can't decide which of them is a bigger disappointment, lol. I think Anthony, because Fultz I can blame on his TOS and write off. But Cole looked amazing at the start of the season, cut his hair, and then just fall off the planet.

Cole:

Image

Time to regroup. Find a way to force a game 7 and tighten up the rotation in Game 7. No reason to be playing so many guys from the bench if they aren't producing and the guy in front of them is and has gas in the tank.


These playoff games are always overscrutinized.

The Cavs barely played anyone else but their starters,

Lavert didn't exactly light the world on fire going 1-3 and one turnover.

Fultz had some turns but was 3-3 from the field

If there is something to point out in this series it has been Franz' inconsistency, his only efficient game was game 4.

Game 5: 3-11
Game 2: 5-17
Game 1: 7-15

This is ammunition for the front office when they head into contract negotiations this summer.
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#638 » by Knightro » Wed May 1, 2024 3:05 pm

The-Stallion70 wrote:This is ammunition for the front office when they head into contract negotiations this summer.


Let me tell you how those negotiations are going to go.

Franz's agent: we want a max contract

Weltman: Ok
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#639 » by The-Stallion70 » Wed May 1, 2024 3:09 pm

Knightro wrote:
The-Stallion70 wrote:This is ammunition for the front office when they head into contract negotiations this summer.


Let me tell you how those negotiations are going to go.

Franz's agent: we want a max contract

Weltman: Ok


Crying over how an ancillary player like Fultz or Cole performs is ignoring the elephant in the room.

That and, you're sure? Did Sabonis get a max extension when when he was first eligible?
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Re: Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread 

Post#640 » by Knightro » Wed May 1, 2024 3:16 pm

The-Stallion70 wrote:
Knightro wrote:
The-Stallion70 wrote:This is ammunition for the front office when they head into contract negotiations this summer.


Let me tell you how those negotiations are going to go.

Franz's agent: we want a max contract

Weltman: Ok


Crying over how an ancillary player like Fultz or Cole performs is ignoring the elephant in the room.


Franz Wagner is *significantly* better than this board seems to collectively think.

He's an excellent basketball player and is going to get a maximum contract.

We're literally 5% on the guy's 3PT percentage different from everyone falling over themselves about how incredible he is. That's the only thing of his that got worse (and I respect that's a massively critical thing) this season.

Scoring up. Rebounding up. Assists up. Steals up. Blocks up. Overall defense up. Finishing up. Turnovers down.

He had an 8% drop in 3PT%. If that had been just a 3% drop, the talk wouldn't be "Franz has had a down year, is he a max player?" it would be "is Franz actually better than Paolo?"

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