Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread

[drsd]

I wouldn't say Gary has been great, but it's hard to suggest he's been *bad* or has been one of the main problems when Carter, Ingles, Isaac, Fultz and Anthony have all been completely unplayable offensively.

Gary doesn't score enough PPG which is the only thing drsd cares about so he's wanted him gone for years.

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

And a sniper from distance at a guard slot will relieve an enormous amount of stress Suggs has in his offensive game. The dude cannot play 100% every play and have a long career. Bodies don't work like that.

[drsd]

I wouldn't say Gary has been great, but it's hard to suggest he's been *bad* or has been one of the main problems when Carter, Ingles, Isaac, Fultz and Anthony have all been completely unplayable offensively.

For all the praises Isaac gets, 3 points and 4 boards in 20 minutes while Jarrett Allen gets 15 and 20 is pretty bad.

At least we are learning something in most valueable environment. Better to know it now than asking this question for the next year. It could affect going for someone like Hartenstein.

Second Bingo.

I am zen about the losing. Management is getting a crystal clear view at the weaknesses of this roster. That is golden.
Plus: is there any doubt that Banchero, F-Wagner, and Suggs will be angry all summer working their tushies off to "get better".

[Bergmaniac]

I wouldn't say Gary has been great, but it's hard to suggest he's been *bad* or has been one of the main problems when Carter, Ingles, Isaac, Fultz and Anthony have all been completely unplayable offensively.

Gary doesn't score enough PPG which is the only thing drsd cares about so he's wanted him gone for years.

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

Why the hell not? Denver just won a championship and steamrolled everyone in their way with their historically dominant offense with KCP being their SG and fifth scoring option.

Hell, the best Magic team of the last 25 years had a starting SG who was the fifth option.

[drsd]

Over/under Orlando's 44.9% game 3 win probability?

I LOVE the over here. Orlando is a dominate home team, specifically the third best in the East.

[drsd]

Managment is learning a great deal in these games.

For one: the Magic is not particularly talented defensively man-to-man, but it is clear that Mosley's schemes work very well in team defense. Thus: any bum-defender should be OK on this roster.

Second: the Magic has no shooting at all.

Sum up, Management is learning an important lesson about the types of roster changes that are required in the off-season. Let me give a hint: G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz all need to be replaced by players that can shoot from distance. That tiny, little change would make this a more competitive team. If it takes trade packages of Ingles, Black and/or Howard with picks to get there, fine.

I beg to differ, management is not a bunch of casuals experiencing playoffs for the first time and watching in awe. Issues we see offensively have been very visible in regular season too.

Not sure if this series is a conclusive proof that we can sneak 'bum-defenders', I am pretty sure against Denver or Boston we'd pay the price - but if that happens in later rounds, I do not care!

In that G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz have sucked on offense all season, yes I agree. But that is my point.

[thelead]

Managment is learning a great deal in these games.

For one: the Magic is not particularly talented defensively man-to-man, but it is clear that Mosley's schemes work very well in team defense. Thus: any bum-defender should be OK on this roster.

Second: the Magic has no shooting at all.

Sum up, Management is learning an important lesson about the types of roster changes that are required in the off-season. Let me give a hint: G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz all need to be replaced by players that can shoot from distance. That tiny, little change would make this a more competitive team. If it takes trade packages of Ingles, Black and/or Howard with picks to get there, fine.

I beg to differ, management is not a bunch of casuals experiencing playoffs for the first time and watching in awe. Issues we see offensively have been very visible in regular season too.

Not sure if this series is a conclusive proof that we can sneak 'bum-defenders', I am pretty sure against Denver or Boston we'd pay the price - but if that happens in later rounds, I do not care!

In that G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz have sucked on offense all season, yes I agree. But that is my point.

Do not exclude Cole "54.5% TS% and no defense" Anthony

[drsd]

I beg to differ, management is not a bunch of casuals experiencing playoffs for the first time and watching in awe. Issues we see offensively have been very visible in regular season too.

Not sure if this series is a conclusive proof that we can sneak 'bum-defenders', I am pretty sure against Denver or Boston we'd pay the price - but if that happens in later rounds, I do not care!

In that G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz have sucked on offense all season, yes I agree. But that is my point.

Do not exclude Cole "54.5% TS% and no defense" Anthony

Houstan and Ingles can join these lists, additionally,

Frankly, (outside of Banchero, Suggs, and F-Wagner), the only players that improved their value this season are Isaac and M-Wagner.

[drsd]

You think we’re contending next year with or without moves? Looks like the learning experience is lost on you.

I assume the Magic will make moves no matter what. But you pose an interesting question as to if it is even possible for Orlando to contend next year, no matter the off-season moves. History would tell us this team is 2 or 3 years away, but yeh, let's be Homers and have high hopes for next year!

[Bensational]

You think we’re contending next year with or without moves? Looks like the learning experience is lost on you.

I assume the Magic will make moves no matter what. But you pose an interesting question as to if it is even possible for Orlando to contend next year, no matter the off-season moves. History would tell us this team is 2 or 3 years away, but yeh, let's be Homers and have high hopes for next year!

I have high hopes every year that the team will overachieve, I just don’t expect it. I have high hopes we’ll turn the series around and win it from here, but again, I certainly don’t expect it.

What I do expect is for a lot of people to turn on Paolo and Franz really quickly once we acquire the pieces that are supposed to turn us into contenders overnight and they fail to do so. I’d rather listen to another season of “OMG if we only had a PG!” than hear the start of “Paolo just ain’t it man! We gotta trade for a real star!” in his third season. All it took was a losing streak at the end of this season for those whispers to start so they’re clearly bubbling to the surface already anyway.

[drsd]

You think we’re contending next year with or without moves? Looks like the learning experience is lost on you.

I assume the Magic will make moves no matter what. But you pose an interesting question as to if it is even possible for Orlando to contend next year, no matter the off-season moves. History would tell us this team is 2 or 3 years away, but yeh, let's be Homers and have high hopes for next year!

I have high hopes every year that the team will overachieve, I just don’t expect it. I have high hopes we’ll turn the series around and win it from here, but again, I certainly don’t expect it.

What I do expect is for a lot of people to turn on Paolo and Franz really quickly once we acquire the pieces that are supposed to turn us into contenders overnight and they fail to do so. I’d rather listen to another season of “OMG if we only had a PG!” than hear the start of “Paolo just ain’t it man! We gotta trade for a real star!” in his third season. All it took was a losing streak at the end of this season for those whispers to start so they’re clearly bubbling to the surface already anyway.

Why are you starting to be a Debbie Downer? Have you been infected by pepe?





..

[Message Boar]

Man, listening to podcasts yesterday was depressing, most people were just straight up clowning us and laughing at us, like we were still one of the scrub teams in the league. It hurt. And they weren't even giving the Cavs any credit, either.

Come to think of it, the only player who I can argue has lived up to my own hopes and expectations for these playoffs these 2 games has been... Moe Wagner? It's been a bummer up to this point, really hope we're ready to step it up at home.

Also I'm wondering how Suggs' knee is doing, if it's swollen and/or sore. I'm sure he'll play if he can, but I worry about seeing gimpy Jalen out there tomorrow night.

[GelbeWand09]

Pretty sure we win the next game. In most cases the underdog wins the 1st home game after losing on the road, because they play with the fans, more desperation, more energy, role players play better, the other teams energy goes down a bit. In game 4 the favorite got more pressure again and energy goes up. So I think we win game 3 and lose game 4.

[drsd]

Gary doesn't score enough PPG which is the only thing drsd cares about so he's wanted him gone for years.

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

Why the hell not? Denver just won a championship and steamrolled everyone in their way with their historically dominant offense with KCP being their SG and fifth scoring option.

Hell, the best Magic team of the last 25 years had a starting SG who was the fifth option.

You're proving my point here. Caldwell-Pope has been a >10ppg guy these last two years. G-Harris has not, and was actually worse this year than last.

Second point: Caldwell-Pope has averaged 4.1 three-ball attempts per game this season, and made them at a 40.6% clip. G-Harris took 3.8 and made them at a 37.1% clip. When Caldwell-Pope is a better three point shooter, one cannot claim "G-Harris is good from 3".

My final point here: Orlando needs a "Caldwell-Pope". And there are about 20 players in the NBA available for that role.

[p0peye]

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

Why the hell not? Denver just won a championship and steamrolled everyone in their way with their historically dominant offense with KCP being their SG and fifth scoring option.

Hell, the best Magic team of the last 25 years had a starting SG who was the fifth option.

You're proving my point here. Caldwell-Pope has been a >10ppg guy these last two years. G-Harris has not, and was actually worse this year than last.

Second point: Caldwell-Pope has averaged 4.1 three-ball attempts per game this season, and made them at a 40.6% clip. G-Harris took 3.8 and made them at a 37.1% clip. When Caldwell-Pope is a better three point shooter, one cannot claim "G-Harris is good from 3".

My final point here: Orlando needs a "Caldwell-Pope". And there are about 20 players in the NBA available for that role.

It is not as simple as looking at boxscore PPG. Harris and potentially Suggs have shooting ability, but how many screens / pin downs do we run during course of the game designed to free them up for a 3? Does Harris pass up open shots or we are not getting the ball to him when he is open? Do you want him to shoot 3s off the dribble (he is not the guy for that)? What does opponent defense give usually? If defense gives us open 3s, do they help off of Harris or someone else?

While I agree that KCP is better player, it is pretty tricky to compare shooting percentages with guys sharing the floor with Jokić. When doubling Jokić defenses are choosing their poison between open 3 from MPJ, Murray and KCP - or giving up a dunk to AG. That is before taking into consideration Jokić effect where he sees plays 5 seconds in future and finds wide open person somewhere where nobody existed a split-second before.

[eyriq]

Over/under Orlando's 44.9% game 3 win probability?

I LOVE the over here. Orlando is a dominate home team, specifically the third best in the East.

Same. The 12 point differential in Cleveland (-14, -10) is wild but not indicative that the Cavs are clearly the better team. I think it was a lot of nerves for the boys. Vegas has us favored by 1.5 points.

[Skybox]

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

Why the hell not? Denver just won a championship and steamrolled everyone in their way with their historically dominant offense with KCP being their SG and fifth scoring option.

Hell, the best Magic team of the last 25 years had a starting SG who was the fifth option.

You're proving my point here. Caldwell-Pope has been a >10ppg guy these last two years. G-Harris has not, and was actually worse this year than last.

Second point: Caldwell-Pope has averaged 4.1 three-ball attempts per game this season, and made them at a 40.6% clip. G-Harris took 3.8 and made them at a 37.1% clip. When Caldwell-Pope is a better three point shooter, one cannot claim "G-Harris is good from 3".

My final point here: Orlando needs a "Caldwell-Pope". And there are about 20 players in the NBA available for that role.

Completely missing the point (literally)…Suggs is the KCP, what we’re missing is the Jamal Murray. Reconsider what you’re projecting…KCP is good- two of him in your backcourt is NOT

KCP will look exactly like Gary if you play him next to Suggs. I love the DEN comp because my best vision of Paolo is moving into Jokic “triple double” territory…Jokic is the best passing big man in HISTORY but he benefits tremendously by having Murray at PG. Murray is more SG than PG in reality and is exactly the model for the kind of PG to help Paolo reach his greatest heights…not Tyus Jones, not CP3- types. Certainly not AB. Suggs is solid at the KCP role…he’ll never be the Murray-type offensive creator & threat that completes the backcourt. Maybe it’s Monk or DLo or Dejounte Murray. I think Simons is the closest thing to Jamal Murray that appears “gettable”.

BTW, everybody now changing their tune about what some have been saying for months, but still many not able to see how basic the need for functional backcourt offense. Even Jokic needs a guard who can take over to make his immense talent work. It’s like ORL fans are watching DEN and saying “we need an AG to win like that” (while Jamal Murray scores 40 )

[eyriq]

Murray is more SG than PG in reality and is exactly the model for the kind of PG to help Paolo reach his greatest heights… Certainly not AB.

Murray is the second option on a contender. We have 5 lotto talents to develop into critical roles, none of which are scoring combo-guards.

Our current build is around two 6'10 scoring wings. It's hard to identify core players, and having to pivot ends up being a death knell for a build.

However, if you are right, we should go hard for Trae.

[Skybox]

Murray is more SG than PG in reality and is exactly the model for the kind of PG to help Paolo reach his greatest heights… Certainly not AB.

Murray is the second option on a contender. We have 5 lotto talents to develop into critical roles, none of which are scoring combo-guards.

Our current build is around two 6'10 scoring wings. It's hard to identify core players, and having to pivot ends up being a death knell for a build.

However, if you are right, we should go hard for Trae.

Trae’s not my first vote (for Paolo’s sake) but it’d be a lot more exciting than hoping AB becomes an NBA starting-level player someday. FO could be a lot less bold (& potentially disruptive) than go for Trae and still make bolder moves than ever.

[Skybox]

I beg to differ, management is not a bunch of casuals experiencing playoffs for the first time and watching in awe. Issues we see offensively have been very visible in regular season too.

Not sure if this series is a conclusive proof that we can sneak 'bum-defenders', I am pretty sure against Denver or Boston we'd pay the price - but if that happens in later rounds, I do not care!

In that G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz have sucked on offense all season, yes I agree. But that is my point.

Do not exclude Cole "54.5% TS% and no defense" Anthony

If we’re being objective, Suggs (who made great improvements) still does not project as a significant scoring option for a contender…good solid 2-way starter…but still lacking offensive creation and scoring. He should be 4th leading scoring on a good team - that’s assuming more growth (12 ppg isn’t enough for the “best” guard on the team.)

[eyriq]

Murray is more SG than PG in reality and is exactly the model for the kind of PG to help Paolo reach his greatest heights… Certainly not AB.

Murray is the second option on a contender. We have 5 lotto talents to develop into critical roles, none of which are scoring combo-guards.

Our current build is around two 6'10 scoring wings. It's hard to identify core players, and having to pivot ends up being a death knell for a build.

However, if you are right, we should go hard for Trae.

Trae’s not my first vote (for Paolo’s sake) but it’d be a lot more exciting than hoping AB becomes an NBA starting-level player someday. FO could be a lot less bold (& potentially disruptive) than go for Trae and still make bolder moves than ever.

Why so much pressure on AB? The core is Suggs, Franz, and Paolo. AB projects as a quality starter, with upside to be top 50. Franz and Paolo have the "star" projections. Suggs is knocking on the door if he takes the leap offensively.